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Author
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Topic: Warning: Glenn Holland Signatures
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spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 08:24 AM
   
Wanted to post a word of warning to anyone out there who bought signed material from GlennHollandSignatures.com (the website of Philip Young) back in about 2000-2004.I believe Philip Young himself to have been an honest dealer but unfortunately it appears that much of his rarer material was obtained from Michael Anderiasch (aka SpaceMike) who at that time was apparently, whether he knew it or not, selling large quantities of expertly-forged astronaut signed pieces. These forgeries are really the work of an artist. Apart from the usual Armstrongs (the known "German" style) the forged signatures include Ed White, John Young, Tom Stafford, Gene Cernan, Ken Mattingly... basically any set of signatures that were impossible, expensive or simply difficult to obtain at the time. A speciality seems to have been the Apollo 10 and 16 crews, and Young-inscribed pieces made out "To Ben". I would urge anyone who obtained a rare signed piece from Glenn Holland Signatures back then to treat it with extreme caution. Unfortunately, there's no chance of getting your money back now if you do find your piece is a forgery but it's better to know now than to treasure a fake. Given the quality of these forgeries and the quantity apparently produced I'd be surprised if many serious collectors who were buying stuff in the early 2000s have avoided buying one or two examples in their time. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-02-2008 09:53 AM
I received an e-mail from Michael this morning, wherein he suggested that this post was the first time he had been aware of any such problems. Chris, can you please contact him? |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 10:01 AM
Could you please post a couple of examples of these purported forgeries? I think a consensus here would be helpful. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-02-2008 10:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I received an e-mail from Michael this morning, wherein he suggested that this post was the first time he had been aware of any such problems.
The first time? No way. Anderiasch has been contacted directly numerous times over the years and also addressed previously on cS regarding these items. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 10:25 AM
Just to be clear - I did not buy these items from SpaceMike but from Glenn Holland Signatures. It was Philip Young that told me the origins of the original pieces when I originally bought them. While I have no reason to doubt what he said I cannot prove it of course.It may be coincidence that all the apparent forgeries are the ones that he says he obtained from SpaceMike. Again, this is not to say that SpaceMike produced the forgeries, simply that he seems to be the earliest known seller. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 10:33 AM
I don't have access to everything right now but here's two Apollo 16 pieces which have what I believe to be forged Young signatures. The Dukes may well be real. The Mattingly is likely forged but I'm not 100% sure.The Apollo 16 crew was purchased from Glenn Holland signatures and Philip Young told me at the time that it was originally from SpaceMike. The Jump Salute was purchased separately. At the time I was pleasantly surprised to find a matching inscription but now I realise my mistake.   |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-02-2008 10:43 AM
The Apollo 16 WSS photo has what I believe to be a very suspect Young and also the Mattingly is very tentative and suspect. The Mattingly's awkward appearance is very apparent in this high resolution scan. I have never seen an authentic Mattingly signed in this manner.The jump salute signed photo has IMO a textbook German Young forgery. I do not know if the Dukes on either of these is authentic or not. |
GerryM
Member Posts: 244
From: Glenside PA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-02-2008 01:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
The Apollo 16 WSS photo has what I believe to be a very suspect Young and also the Mattingly is very tentative and suspect.
I do not like this crew signed litho either. I have seen lots of Mattingly's over the years, especially in person ones, and none match up to this one. The Young I don't like either, especially the inscription "Best Wishes". The pen stops and starts all over the place, there is no fluidity in the writing. quote:
The jump salute signed photo has IMO a textbook German Young forgery.
Agreed!!Gerry Montague
Astronaut Archives |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 01:31 PM
These forgeries have eluded collectors for years. I hope more information surfaces as to their source(s). |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-02-2008 02:43 PM
Here's another example of a Glenn Holland Signature suspect piece.  The McDivitt signature may be good but the White is apparently a very good forgery. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-02-2008 02:59 PM
Philip relocated to the USA a couple of years ago, so I don't see why a refund process cannot be pursued - all the way up the chain. He did have a very comprehensive website with some rare pieces which sold quickly... too quickly no doubt, in the frenzy that gripped the hobby 7 or 8 yrs ago. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-02-2008 03:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fabfivefreddy:
These forgeries have eluded collectors for years. I hope more information surfaces as to their source(s).
That's a good point, Tahir - and now would be a good time to address it.Efforts so far to trace specific forged German styles beyond Anderiasch have been unsuccessful. One such item which contains weak (and likely early) Armstrong and Collins forgeries is currently listed on a website with the accompanying notation "Provenance Michael Anderiasch". I wrote Anderiasch and politely asked him from whom he had obtained the item, so that the creator of it could possibly be found. He replied that he didn't recall ever owning the item. A bit hard to believe, considering its notation on the website, but mistakes do happen and/or people have faulty memories. Here is another specific item which has been connected to Anderiasch:  This item contains many suspect signatures. The Armstrong is one of the weakest known German Armstrong forgeries, likely another early effort of the master German forger. The Collins and Irwin are also known definitively to be specific forgery styles. One of this item's owners, a very well-known collector, has revealed that it came from Anderiasch. I have written Anderiasch twice to ask him from whom he obtained this piece - and both times I have been ignored. Perhaps he could answer that question now. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-04-2008 09:59 AM
It would be a very rare collector who has a forgery-free collection and who has acquired a significant number of his autographs from sources other than in-person himself - sources such as eBay, big auction houses, space dealers, general autograph dealers, fellow collectors and collector-dealers. Some astronaut autograph forgers have become so proficient that probably any collector, regardless of his experience or expertise, is susceptible to acquiring forgeries.Because of the high quality of some forgeries, provenance, the history or chain of ownership, can be very useful and critical in determining authenticity. But everyone involved in the chain of ownership must be cooperative and open in the process to be succcessful in leading back to an autograph's original owner, and, finally, its origin. When the trail of forgeries leads back to a source, and that source is not cooperative and forthcoming with information and is not responsive, then that is very suspicious and incriminating. Surely, there are many collectors all over the world, who admire and cherish their prized autographs, that, sadly and in actuality, have come from the dark dens of forgers. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-04-2008 10:15 AM
I bought a Ed White signed card from that website when it was going a few years back, other people will be able to tell better than me but does it look suspect to anyone?It's the 4th item down on this page. |
spacemike
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posted 01-04-2008 10:31 AM
I want to let you all know that I bought back the Apollo moonwalker photo 2 years ago (before Scott ask me) against my own opinion about authenticity.The former owner has asked me politely what we can do. I have given him a fully
refund. The deal was so about 8 years ago as I reduced my collection (which collector do this?). Can not understand that buyers do not contact me directly if they have any problems. |
LadyCosmos
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posted 01-04-2008 10:44 AM
Sorry, maybe I have not good understand all this topic.I have purchased some years ago 7 items from Mr. Anderiasch (Spacemike) who are always look authentic for me (I'm not expert / I have one suspect Armstrong apparently). Should I consider now maybe they are forgeries or it's just items came from the GlennHollandSignatures.com site are now in discussion? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-04-2008 10:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nasamad:
I bought a Ed White signed card from that website when it was going a few years back, other people will be able to tell better than me but does it look suspect to anyone?
Adam, there are some odd similarities between your White signature and the one Chris posted a photo of, so that's a bit worrying. However, if it is a forgery, it is an extremely good one.A higher res scan would be helpful in determining the authenticity (or lack of) with greater certainty. I don't claim to be an expert in authentication, however, so wait until you hear opinions from others before deciding whether it's real or not. P.S. - I like your Onizuka and Scobee signed cards. Very funny! |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-04-2008 11:17 AM
Mike, nice post, but you didn't answer my question. Answer my question.From whom did you obtain this 12-moonwalker item? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-04-2008 11:56 AM
Remember that prior to John Young signing with Novaspace he really wasn't signing pre-Shuttle stuff. Just a few years ago his signature was going for something like $1500 a pop, more than Armstrong at the time, and where there's money, there's crooks. I strongly believe that the best forgers were producing significant quantities of Young signatures at that time.Here's a quick exercise for those of you that scour eBay for astronaut signatures (i.e. most of you). There are plenty of estate sale items coming up from NASA workers and the like and I would say that genuine examples of most Apollo crews do turn up from time to time. Now tell me how many Apollo 10 or 16 crew-signed vintage pieces have you seen sold like that on eBay in the last four years? I can't think of a single example, and yet a few years back there seemed to be a significant supply available from certain sources. Of course the problem with really good forgeries is that spotting the traits that differentiate them from the real thing is extremely difficult. Even if you do see a few oddities from time to time these could be natural variations of the astronaut's signature. It's only when all the examples of a particular trait are traceable back to a particular source that you can say with any certainty that you are looking at the work of a forger. This was the case with the Peachstate Armstrongs and more recently the 'German' Armstrongs, but the task was made easier by the quantity of forgeries produced and by the large number of genuine examples available for comparison. I think we're only now beginning to spot the traits of the German forger's Young, Grissom, White, Irwin, Collins, Aldrin and other forgeries. These forgeries have gone unrecognised by ALL the experts until recently (as the Peachstate and German Armstrong forgeries did for many years) and most are still not readily identifiable. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-04-2008 12:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
Remember that prior to John Young signing with Novaspace he really wasn't signing pre-Shuttle stuff... I strongly believe that the best forgers were producing significant quantities of Young signatures at that time.
Excellent points Chris. Pre-Novaspace (and the bog-standard NASA TTM lithos aside), Young items were like gold dust and QED an equally golden temptation for forgers. Sadly they were an equally golden temptation for some dealers. Another interesting exercise is to check (via Ebay feedback from 2000-2004) where some of these intermediate dealers obtained the bulk of their inventory. It holds no surprises for many of us. |
spacemike
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posted 01-04-2008 12:39 PM
Scott, I bought it from a man in Texas who contacted me through the mail (not email cause it was before we had Internet).He said he has worked for NASA and wants to sell some space items.Bought several items from him in a bulk and have never heard from him again. I deleted all informations/addresses from my first 20 years of collecting. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-04-2008 01:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spacemike:
I deleted all informations/addresses from my first 20 years of collecting.
That's a very convenient answer.You bought the holy grail of collectibles (all 12 moonwalkers on one item), not to mention many other items, from someone and you deleted all information about him... and also managed to forget his name too? I know that if someone sold me an item with all 12 moonwalkers, I would NEVER forget that person's name. If I were you, I would try really hard to remember that name...because, until you do, you're going to look guilty of being involved in these forgeries in many people's eyes. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-04-2008 01:51 PM
Mike, you've got to do better than that. Funny, before now you had stated that many of these suspect styles came from a German collector named "T. Pasche" (who I have been told by others is apparently unknown in Germany to every collector but yourself). On a different occasion, you told a German dealer that some or most of these had come from someone with Parkinson's Disease whose name escaped you and who might have died (I'm not making this up, everyone). I now have no other alternative but to believe you are the dealer source of these styles. And based on this painfully bogus provenance you have given, I personally believe that you realize they are bad. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-04-2008 02:23 PM
This is a disturbing development, reminiscent of some dubious items we have seen here. The source of an autograph always ends with someone. Provenance is the hallmark of autographs (especially items worth hundreds or thousands of dollars). I wonder what the "other items" bought in bulk consisted of. We all deserve to know that- especially if they were sold. Please provide that list of items. Were they photos, letters, covers, etc.? Armstrongs? |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-04-2008 04:28 PM
As an aside, did David Frohman ever explain where the "Peachstate" Armstrongs actually came from? Wasn't there some story about them coming from a huge collector who had died? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-04-2008 04:36 PM
If anyone out there has purchased autographed items from Spacemike and/or Glenn Holland, I would highly recommend taking a second look at those items and perhaps posting scans or links so those items can be investigated further...especially if those signatures were of any "premium" astronauts. Some of these forgeries appear to be extremely well done, but there are tells which can possibly be seen with a hi-res scan. Also, any scans help to build a case against whatever forgers are behind these items. The only way to beat the forgers is through greater knowledge of their activities and signing habits.My fear is that if these forgers are allowed to continue, the "contamination" of the autograph market will only get worse. This isn't like the poor forgeries you see on Ebay daily. These forgeries are good enough to fool some of the best. If you don't want to post scans here, e-mail them to me and I will pass them along to people with greater knowledge of such things. |
4tr
Member Posts: 129
From: Scituate, Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 01-04-2008 04:58 PM
I purchased this Armstrong signature from SpaceMike some years ago on eBay. At the time it was vetted by three knowledgeable collectors, including Adam Harwood. I'm hoping none have second thoughts now! |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-04-2008 05:02 PM
Could you please send a closer scan of the signature? Try to get just the signature in the field of view. Also, what is the size of the photo? |
4tr
Member Posts: 129
From: Scituate, Massachusetts
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 01-04-2008 05:20 PM
This is the best I can get it at the moment. The photo measures 3" X 5" and was purchased in March, 2000. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-04-2008 05:57 PM
Thanks, Ed. I agree with Tahir that it is a bit hard to say on this one without a high-res scan. quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
As an aside, did David Frohman ever explain where the "Peachstate" Armstrongs actually came from?
Chris, others would probably be better able to give a synopsis of the Peachstate episode but, as I understand it, Frohman claimed to have obtained all his Armstrong, Collins and Armstrong+Collins forged pieces (of the so-called "Peachstate" forgery style) from an Ernest Haecker who, as luck would have it, was dead when suspicion about the pieces arose to enough of a degree to cause widespead discussion of them. I believe there is circumstantial evidence which casts doubt on Frohman's version of events.Here are a few cS threads which dealt with the issue: |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 01-04-2008 09:56 PM
First off, all I can say for now is, what an "unbelievable" response from a well-known German dealer this topic board is referring to. For Adam of the UK, unfortunately, there are many concerns I have with your White signed insert cover card along with the Roosa/Apollo 14 signed card. Based on my collecting experiences, Adam, I strongly feel both are not genuine. In regards to the continuous flow of better crew-signed photos (and some covers) that are continually popping up, yes, it would appear most, if not all, are originating from a common German source with at least 2 well-known people, and possibly a third, involved. It has only been a few years ago when such a situation became known to me, with the help of a few dedicated collector friends, as I usually never purchase or deal with astronaut autograph material from Germany and other certain European sources. Anyway, from that time on, I have accumulated a vast file containing dozens and dozens of photostat copies, faxes, and computer scans-images of what I believe to be German-produced forgeries of better or "classic-vintage era" astronaut signatures. Most are not inscribed and with many signed on NASA-numbered color glossies, which by the way, are harder to find than most people would think. Simply put--there are way, way, too many of these in circulation. With careful study and examination, along with so many copies to compare them with now, certain various distinct patterns can be determined from most all of them. Such is the case with a particular astronaut-moonwalker. His advertised vintage-era signatures on offered color glossies from Germany had an autograph trait or pattern that was never done until years later ! ! ! |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-05-2008 03:10 AM
A beneficial side-effect of the recent leap in value of vintage NASA glossy photos has been that many are now worth more unsigned than signed. A forger with a supply of these photos can make more money today (with no risk) selling them unsigned than by slapping fake signatures on them. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-05-2008 04:11 AM
Jeez, not the Roosa card as well! Anyone got a shredder going cheap?P.S. I will sort out hi-res scans for the group when I get over to my mother's place where my items are. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 01-05-2008 08:42 AM
Adam, FWIW, sadly, I tend to agree with Ken on the Roosa. It's a good try but not totally convincing. Not an expert on White so I'll let others decide. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 01-07-2008 09:29 AM
I would hope that an apology and refund offer will be given by those who sold these items as dealers. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-14-2008 04:58 PM
I have had some people come forward to show some items they purchased from the above-named dealers and it turns out they may have also purchased likely forgeries too. Right now, it appears a significant percentage of autographs may have been forgeries...even those signatures from astronauts who aren't all that rare (like Aldrin). Once again, if anyone has purchased from these guys (or has an item that has had a past history with these guys), I can't help but stress how important it is to get a second opinion on these signatures. Some of the forgeries are indeed very well done...and the average collector can't necessarily be expected to spot them. Fortunately, other collectors (with more knowledge than myself of such matters) have been compiling data on these forgeries behind the scenes and can spot the forgeries with a little bit of detective work (if given a high-enough resolution scan...preferably 300dpi). |
Madon_space
Member Posts: 667
From: uk
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 01-16-2008 12:17 PM
Hi all, I am gutted to read this post as I made several purchases from Philip on the 7th Feb 2004, the items I purchased are as follows- - Gene Cernan 10x8 with mission number
- Charles Conrad 10x8
- James Irwin 10x8 on the moon with printed inscription his love from the moon
- Robert Crippen 10x8 OSS
- Dave Scott 16x20 on the moon
- Harrison Schmitt 10x8 WSS with mission number
Obviously I am extremely worried that I too have bought forgeries and wanted to know if there is anyone that could help me in confirming whether these items are genuine or fake. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 01-16-2008 01:44 PM
If you like, please send them to me offline and I would be happy to look at them and give you my personal opinion. |
paulushumungus
Member Posts: 466
From: Burton, Derbyshire, England
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 01-16-2008 03:01 PM
Well, Im really really depressed now having read all of this. As some of my good collecting friends/colleagues know (and they have posted responses above) I have been screwed also, but by another source. That will remain un-named at present but the way things are shaping up the beans will be spilt... These forgeries above are clearly very professional and it is scary. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 01-16-2008 05:22 PM
I think it's worth re-iterating that most of these forgeries are really very good and fooled everyone just a few years back. Even the most honest dealers may have sold-on a few examples without ever knowing it. |
Topic Closed
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