posted 11-10-2001 11:42 AM               

In April of 1999 I purchased what appeared to be a beautiful uninscribed Neil Armstrong WSS portrait from Peachstate Historical Consulting, Inc. Although it was about $50 more than the going price at the time, it was the best Armstrong auto that I had seen up to that point. What a grand addition to my collection.

February 2001 I received a letter from Peachstate stating they had received information that made them think my autograph was a forgery. Their reason was the fact that at least half of the " Armstrong " was covering the American flag. They also offered to buy it back for $25 more than I paid for it, and I also was requested to cut it in half upon return.

Although it killed me to do so, I cut the piece in half, and returned it. I had researched Mr. David Frohman, and determined him to be an excellent authority on Neil Armstrong material. This piece would have easily brought $500-$600 on eBay from an unsuspecting collector.

My only problem was the increasing prices have now put Neil's auto out of my financial reach.

I will comment that Mr. Frohman was good on his word, and the Peachstate Historical Consulting,Inc. firm can be trusted for all space related purchases.

If I ever win the lottery, I will probably purchase An Armstrong that is inscribed... or a letter with NASA letterhead.

Well, that's my experience.

posted 11-11-2001 08:01 AM               

We'll have to wait for a long time for another opportunity like that to present!

Congrats again

posted 11-12-2001 12:33 AM               

Thanks for sharing the info. It is nice to see he did the right thing with the photos. But I have always been curious.... How can someone who is suppose to be "the expert" on Armstrongs autographs, miss this one to the degree it was missed? Also, there are some very blatant forgeries in the study not listed a such.

No criticism intended towards anyone in particular and the particular dealer/expert you mention has some wonderful authentic items. I'm just curious. I've asked this question before and I always get a non - response.

Best,

posted 11-12-2001 12:35 AM               

I am further confused, as I was under the impression there were others with the signature the same as this that he bought back. Again, while doing the right thing. I'm just saying MORE than a one of a kind.

Did anyone else here happen to have another Armstrong purchased there that failed the flag test?

Best,

posted 11-12-2001 07:09 PM               

First point, the autograph that I bought from Peachstate was originally purchased by them in a hoard of autos... not an estate sale. The word "garage" did not appear in my original posting.

Second point, the fact that it was one of a kind was assumed by me. I am thinking that it was the only one they had at the time.
As far as being an expert on any signature,

Mr. Frohman has extensive knowledge on the writing habits, and tendencies of many astronauts, including Mr. Armstrong.

Another point that I would like to make is that Peachstate backs up their claim to reimburse anyone for any autograph that they aren't 100% sure is authentic. Or any that the purchaser can prove is a forgery. This isn't a one time deal... it is good for the life of the autograph.

I sincerely apologize for any misinformation that I have posted here on collectSPACE.

posted 11-12-2001 10:52 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by uzzi69:
Another point that I would like to make is that Peachstate backs up their claim to reimburse anyone for any autograph that they aren't 100% sure is authentic. Or any that the purchaser can prove is a forgery. This isn't a one time deal... it is good for the life of the autograph.

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posted 11-13-2001 06:11 AM               

Sometimes new information comes to light months or years after a transaction has taken place. I'm not saying I buy into the signature over the flag thesis, but this is one example.

Some years back I purchased at auction a major piece of Presidential memorabilia, signed by the President and his entire family to a staffer on their departure from the White House. I asked for a long extension to show the item to a mutually-agreed expert and this was granted. Almost a year later I showed the item to the expert (a lady who is considered one of the 2 or 3 authorities on Presidential and First Family signatures) and she pronounced it genuine, at least partially because she had never seen such a small signature of this President, so it couldn't be autopen, and all the family signatures were certainly genuine. She also showed it to another major autograph dealer at the same show, and he also felt it was kosher.

A couple of years later that lady contacted me, she'd mentioned my piece to a person who was close to the family, and he informed her that there was indeed one very small signature matrix which was very rare as it was only used to sign presentations to staffers and foreign dignitaries!! A comparison of photocopies showed them to be identical. Actually, it's far rarer than the man's genuine signature, but certainly doesn't command the same price in the market. Of course, I couldn't return it to the auction house, as I'd contacted them to release the money after getting the first favorable opinion. This is a drawback to buying at auction, after a certain point you have no recourse to the auctioneer as he has paid his consignor. A dealer who is a member of one or the other of our major autograph associations (as PeachTree is) MUST guarantee for life any material he sells, unless he offers it "As Is", so you have some recourse. Stinkers do manage to slip into even the finest orgaizations from time-to-time, but they are usually routed out pretty quickly, and PeachTrees conduct in this matter seems to be in the finest tradition of their code of ethics.

Now, the auctioneer and consignor offered it in good faith, and even one of the greatest experts felt it was genuine; it took three years at least to discover the truth. I've never dealt with PeachTree, but it seems they're trying to keep faith with their customers in the light of recently reached conclusions, so I think we can cut them a little slack. I think they deserve credit for contacting Bill/uzzi69, rather than he having to chase them for a refund. Don't you agree? Did the CosmoSphere offer you a refund or exchange on your Grisson film acrylic?

Doc

posted 11-13-2001 06:17 PM               

I'm not too worried that an inscribed Owen Garriott picked up on eBay for $8.00 is legit, or not.

And the chances of seeing Neil Armstrong sign something now is virtually impossible. But for those that want to add him to their collection, it's risky business.

Personally I would rather chance a deal with Peachstate than any eBay purchases. Who else would come out in the open 2 years later and offer you your money back? Someone on eBay? I feel that Mr. Frohman, and Peachstate have done their duty, and I am well satisfied. That's all that counts to me.

posted 11-13-2001 06:59 PM               

What exactly triggered the recall of the Armstrong WSS autographs by Peachstate?

Now, before you all answer the "flag test", follow that line of thinking a bit further. The flag test alone cannot be used to identify a forgery. As has been shown, there are authentic examples of Armstrong's signature which do cross the flag.

For Peachstate to recall the Armstrong autographs, they had to now feel strongly enough that the autographs they sold were forgeries. So, I ask again -- what caused the recall?

I realize the flag test could have triggered a second look at these autographs, but what was it about the signature style that now caused them to be suspect? What changed from the first time they were inspected?

If, by chance, nothing has changed -- why wasn't the flag test countered? Why couldn't these be exceptions to the rule?

A related question: after realizing that this signature style was suspect, were other recalls offered? I mean, in the months since the flag test was proposed, I have noticed that the particular style to the Armstrong WSS alleged forgeries sold by Peachstate also appears on A11 crew photographs and a few other pieces. Are these being re-called too?

posted 11-14-2001 12:20 AM               

If you're such an expert how did you allow that many forgeries onto the market?

Certainly this is NO accusation he did them, nor knowingly sold them. I'm just saying in spite of the advertisement here and all the kind words and fluff, the bottom line is no true "expert" would have done that. This is in line with your question as to basically where did you get this new knowledge.

Even the best of us are fooled. But, if youre staking your reputation on being an expert, well, thats a pretty big mistake. One or two, sure. A stack? And again, no suggestion he intended to fraud, quite the opposite. I just dont feel he is that "learned". Cant have it both ways.

Best,

posted 11-14-2001 09:35 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The flag test alone cannot be used to identify a forgery. As has been shown, there are authentic examples of Armstrong's signature which do cross the flag..

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quote:

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I realize the flag test could have triggered a second look at these autographs, but what was it about the signature style that now caused them to be suspect? What changed from the first time they were inspected?

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posted 11-14-2001 07:08 PM               

I am not here to represent the Peachstate Historical Consulting, Inc. firm...my sole purpose was to convey my experience with the Neil Armstrong forgery phenomenon. The fact that PS was mentioned was simply the fact that they were involved in the transaction. Perhaps I should have left them out of this forum. I also stated my satisfaction with the end result...I received my money back...plus some.

Others might not see this deal in a favorable light.

The fact that Mr. Frohman handled this sticky affair with honesty says volumes for him, in my book. Of course everyone looks at things in different ways.

I must admit that I haven't dealt with them since this incident...but not for lack of trust, I just simply prefer to obtain my autos in person.

Can anyone in the group tell me a better way to obtain Mr. Armstrong's signature with a 100% guarantee? (besides having an unlikely successful personal encounter.) As far as my own expertise goes, I will look for an inscribed WSS portrait, or a letter with NASA letterhead.

His handwriting seems to add validity to any photo he has inscribed.

posted 11-14-2001 08:49 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by uzzi69:

Can anyone in the group tell me a better way to obtain Mr. Armstrong's signature with a 100% guarantee?

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But you already bought one with a 100% guarantee, and returned it! What more do you want. Oh! you mean you want a real one thats errr..... actually real and the 100% guarantee you require is that its 100% genuine? Never heard of anything in life thats 100% certain except death, taxes and postings by sycophants on forums.

Joe

posted 11-15-2001 03:12 PM               

But therein lies the problem. It's very simple, there is a LOT he can clear up were he to post here and answer some questions. I know he reads this and addressing the issues would go a long way to clear up some (hopefully) misconceptions. His reluctance to do so does not help him in the least.

Best,

posted 11-15-2001 08:30 PM               

It would also seem to me to be bad form to try to advertise for PS by stating that the first item I purchased from them was a forgery. I was satisfied by the way the problem was solved, which was part of the story I had to tell.

In the way that eBay is mentioned in this forum, I have mentioned PS. No one seems to think that eBay is being advertised.

I cannot speak for Mr. Frohman, nor would I if it were possible, I simply stated the facts of my story which involved his business. If I talk to him again, I will extent him an invitation to this site, so that he may be similarly grilled.

posted 11-15-2001 08:54 PM               

This space collecting hobby of ours is very small and most of the collectors either know each other or are at least e-mail friends. Trading is a big part of our hobby and once an item gets into the hobby, it gets traded from collector to collector. This truly is a problem that effects us all. I have not heard from anyone, or seen anywhere, where Mr. Frohman has answered any of the questions raised above. This forum seems to be a very good place for him to make some sort of statement about the autographs recalled and some of the items in his Armstrong study.

Whispers and rumors are going through our hobby right now about the questions raised above. Perhaps it is time for Peachstate to make some sort of public statement and answer some of the points raised above.

posted 11-15-2001 10:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Leon Ford:
It is very disappointing that Mr. Frohman hasn't seen fit to answer any of the questions raised in this discussion on this board. The discussion has been very civil and I think the questions asked are fair. I'm afraid that his silence only raises more questions about other items that Peachstate sells and has sold. One begins to wonder about COA's of other items, both autographs and other space related items, that have been sold by Peachstate.
Leon Ford

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I agree Leon - an accomponying Peachstate COA no longer enhances an item and in some ways it actually now detracts from its intrinsic desirability - I see people dumping off their Peachstate items because where there is a doubt then the desire for ownership ebbs. Confidence and trust is everything in this hobby, and I dont know any serious collector who has any trust and confidence in that company.

Joe

posted 11-15-2001 11:11 PM               

Now I have a better understanding of the subject...

posted 11-16-2001 01:14 AM               

First off, David is currently on vacation and he is not here to defend Peachstate.

Secondly, I am shocked at some of the innuendo and misinformation that has been brought up in the thread. I believe I can answer a number of issues that have been raised in this thread, as I am a long time friend of Dave's. As a friend, Dave Frohman has freely shared with me the specifics of the issues raised here.

Dave felt that he should deal with this whole matter directly with his clients that were affected by the transaction and not in a public forum. This he did very effectively by recalling the signed photos in question.

From first hand discussions, I know he felt very strongly that only 2 or 3 percent of his sales should not color how people viewed his company as a whole. He also felt very strongly that if, indeed, the material in question was not authentic, he wanted to protect those clients who desired a refund. So he recalled the photos and gave his customers back their money and then some. That is a 100% guarantee.

Leon Ford and Joe Davies both well know that Peachstate does not issue COA's for autographs and related space material.

Rather, Peachstate issues a properly drawn up bill of sale to the customer that guarantees the authenticity of that particular item. I know since I have numerous examples and I pulled them out tonight to review them after reading the above posts.

The only documents that Peachstate issues which are not personally addressed to the client are Astronaut Flight-Certification certificates signed by the astronaut that owned the piece.

Leon and Joe as well as other people who have contributed to this thread have benefited greatly from their dealings with Peachstate. Leon, if you would like to discuss one particular transaction in which I was involved concerning a backpack substrap from Apollo 12 that Joe Davies now owns let's discuss that on this thread too. I think that is a great example of how Dave treats his clients.

Joe if what you say is true, then I would be happy to buy back the substrap at the price that Dave gave it to Leon for.

It does not matter to me whether Dave Frohman ever choses to respond, as he has been requested to do by his competitors, in a forum as vicious as this. What does matter to me is how Dave handled a delicate situation with professionism and integrity.

I find it interesting that nearly a year after Dave's amazing recall effort that the usual suspects are still attacking Dave whenever someone says something nice about him.

To sum up, I refer the readers of this thread to the very first posting which started the whole topic and not allow themselves to be distracted by the misleading postings that followed.

Good night,

posted 11-16-2001 01:17 AM               

Im sorry you felt like you were being grilled. We appreciate your sharing your experience, however it came across at first like either advertising or for Mr. Frohamn. You clarified this which if you read, I thanked you for. But grilled you were not my friend.

You broached a subject that is very, well shall we say, "near and dear" to many people - many people who have unanswered questions and have asked these questions more than a few times.

The thrust of the posts was NOT directed at you, rather it was a plea for him to please come forward and explain some situations. Situations Im sure he can clarify as well and that would be to his benefit. His reluctance to do so, now and in the past, has hurt him greatly.

As Robert says however, he is on vacation and hopefully will respond upon his return.

Thanks for sharing!

Best,

posted 11-16-2001 07:57 AM               

I have had the pleasure of dealing with David several times over the years and he has never been anything less than a joy to do business with. Customer satisfaction is guaranteed and he lives up to his guarantee. How many other dealers would follow up on the Armstrong forgeries as David did? No one is perfect...but we can all try to be a little better. David has certainly done his part in trying to correct this unfortunate circumstance. I think we could all do ourselves AND the hobby a great service by cutting David just a little slack.

posted 11-16-2001 10:03 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by liftoff1:
How many other dealers would follow up on the Armstrong forgeries as David did? I think we could all do ourselves AND the hobby a great service by cutting David just a little slack.

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PS had fair warning that the Armstrongs were suspect. As early as 1998 people were returning them because there were authenticity questions. Why did it take over 2 YEARS for letters to start going out?

Just because someone issues refunds when it becomes clear that the boom is lowering doesn't make them a hero or a great dealer in my book.

posted 11-16-2001 11:17 AM               

I thought that points made concerning PS were directed at me, so I apolgize for any misunderstandings.

I understand that several people have had favorable dealings with PS, while others have not, it seems.

Apparently we all hold high standards for ourselves where authenticity is concerned, myself included. I would not sell or trade a piece that I would consider questionable.

The reason that I made this posting was not to question the sincerity of PS, but to tell the story. I am not comfortable making any other statements concerning PS, so I will refrain from doing so in the future.

I will state that I thoroughly enjoy speaking to others about the totally facinating subject of astronauts and autographs...as long as I don't end up stepping on someone's toes to do it.