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Author
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Topic: Signing history and experience: Bill Anders
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mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-13-2010 01:18 AM
   
10 cents is quite a deal...nearly fair market value! |
Spoon
Member Posts: 155
From: Cumbria, UK
Registered: May 2006
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posted 03-13-2010 02:54 AM
Marvelous pictures Francis! They have made my day!! |
DChudwin
Member Posts: 1121
From: Lincolnshire IL USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 03-13-2010 09:14 AM
Fantastic photo, Francis! A good way to end this thread. The conversation I had with Gen. Anders at the ASF dinner was very cordial, and he did take the time to respond to my letter about autograph fees. I do admire his many accomplishments; I just wish he would lighten up on the autograph front. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3207
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-13-2010 10:38 AM
I would liked to have created a WSS portait litho for Anders as I did for Borman but I never really identified a suitable image to base it on.Of course if they could only be signed at $2,500 a shot the market might be a bit limited anyway... <8) |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 2088
From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 03-13-2010 10:42 AM
Those photos are classic. I especially liked the detail of Francis peering around hopefully after checking his watch. A funny and clever response to this thread. |
GerryM
Member Posts: 253
From: Glenside PA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-14-2010 05:30 PM
I personally find these photos tasteless! They seem to almost the mock serious collectors who hold Gen. Anders in high esteem, but cannot afford his autograph price. I am extremely disappointed that someone like Francis French who has special access to Gen. Anders, would stage such photos, which only serve to "rub our noses in it." It is baffling to me why someone would do this to the same collectors who have supported him over the years by buying his books and visiting the museum he is employed by. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1527
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-14-2010 06:09 PM
If someone does pony up the $2500 for an autograph, does Gen. Anders treat the request with respect in signing the item? I would hate to think that someone would send him a valuable item to sign and make the donation, only to have one of the 'joke' signatures applied to it. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-14-2010 06:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GerryM:
I personally find these photos tasteless!
Personally, I found the photos to be quite humorous. If anything, they serve to remind folks here that the subject of their discussion is not absent from the "room." By taking part in these photos, Anders is no more mocking collectors as are the collectors here mocking Anders for setting his fee at whatever he desires.As for Francis, as he himself has pointed out, the photos are alone his doing and have nothing to do with where he works. To try to draw the museum into this is inappropriate. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-14-2010 06:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ilbasso:
If someone does pony up the $2500 for an autograph, does Gen. Anders treat the request with respect in signing the item?
I have only heard glowing reports from those who have received Anders-signed Earthrise photos after making a donation either directly or through the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-14-2010 07:18 PM
I thought the photos and whole idea were a taunt to collectors. You see a smug look on what's-his-name's face.I'm sure he's gracious, intelligent, Blah, blah, blah, but his self-serving reasons for not signing detract from all that. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1826
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 03-14-2010 09:06 PM
I think we're taking these pictures way too serious. First off, I'd like to thank Francis for getting General Anders to take the photos; shows both of them have a good sense of humor. We really don't know the intent of General Anders for agreeing to take the photos; we can only speculate and assume. And as a good friend once told me, when we assume, we usually make an a__ out of u and me! |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3289
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-15-2010 12:04 AM
Thank you for those kind words!Gerry, I am sorry to hear you had that reaction. I could fully understand your comments if the images had been presented in a different context. I might even had gone along with your views myself. But context is everything. This thread contains some unsupported assumptions about a person's character, some of them rather mean, including the opinion that offering an opportunity for very worthy charitable donations is somehow a negative personal trait, instead of a highly admirable one. This kind of commentary could be responded to in two ways that I can think of. To ignore the unsupported assumptions, which allows them to remain unquestioned. To try and politely suggest otherwise, giving primary sources. I did so, and thankfully that seemed to give many people a satisfactory answer. However, when some negative character assumptions continue, then a little light-hearted, well-meaning humor seems a perfectly reasonable, in fact a very pleasant, second response. I'm very glad most people appreciated the good-humored joke: although no doubt others will continue to try and stir the pot - as is perhaps their character. Well damn, now you have made me explain a joke, which as we all know kills any humor!  |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-15-2010 01:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
including the opinion that offering an opportunity for very worthy charitable donations is somehow a negative personal trait, instead of a highly admirable one.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Nobody is being critical that Anders is collecting money for his charity. Presumably, there is an "opportunity" to donate to the charity, regardless if one wants an autograph or not. Most criticism (or at least my criticism) is aimed at the justifications for why he thinks his signature is so much more valuable than John Young's signature...or any other Apollo astronauts signature for that matter. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3207
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-15-2010 03:42 AM
In terms of the charitable donations raised by Anders' signings I think the point most people would make is that he could raise far more with minimal effort on his part by simply lowering his fee.If I were to guess I'd say that he signs maybe four times a year for his $2,500 fee (including via the ASF). I'm pretty confident that if he did an annual organized signing with a fee set at say $500 he could raise five or ten times as much for just a couple of hours effort. His current signing policy results in an impressive price per signature but much less money raised for his chosen charity. At the same time it also disappoints a lot of genuine fans of the Apollo program, and let's face it these are pretty-much the only people around these days who actually appreciate who Anders is and what he was part of. This seems like a shame on both counts. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1978
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-15-2010 06:39 AM
Once again...to each their own. He can sign what he wants, for who he wants, for how much he wants or nothing at all for any reason or beliefs he may have about it.And those are collectors' choices as well when they want his autograph. No sense in hammering the guy. He can do what he wants, as well as we. Geez, why can't people understand that?! |
jimsz
Member Posts: 644
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
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posted 03-15-2010 06:50 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
In terms of the charitable donations raised by Anders' signings I think the point most people would make is that he could raise far more with a truly minimal effort on his part by simply lowering his fee.
Why does it matter if he signs for "charity" or for filling his bank account?It's his personal business. He obviously is not needing to be in the spotlight and wanting wads of cash like other former astronauts, that's fine for both. He signs and he charges a large amount of money. As a collector or a fan it's your choice whether to pay. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3207
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 03-15-2010 07:44 AM
I don't see any of my comments as 'hammering' Anders. Simply putting forward a few arguments as to the possible merits of changing his signing habits is not an attack on Anders. In any case I'm pretty sure the General can handle some honest discussion without shedding any tears - as those photos probably prove.Why does it matter if he signs for "charity" or for filling his bank account? It makes a big difference I would say. People who bid on items at charity auctions regularly bid way above the 'going rate' for an item because the money is going to charity, and in terms of signing fees at mail-in signings I'm personally more inclined to pay a high fee if I know that the bulk of the money goes to a charity. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel that way. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1978
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-15-2010 08:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaced out:
I don't see any of my comments as 'hammering' Anders. Simply putting forward a few arguments as to the possible merits of changing his signing habits is not an attack on Anders. In any case I'm pretty sure the General can handle some honest discussion without shedding any tears - as those photos probably prove.
It is what it is. No more... no less. |
jut2y
Member Posts: 260
From: worthing west sussex united kingdom
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 03-15-2010 08:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I have only heard glowing reports from those who have received Anders-signed Earthrise photos...
Here is one of mine and I was thrilled with it. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1978
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-15-2010 11:23 AM
Nice...! |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3415
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-15-2010 03:16 PM
I was open-minded about the Anders saga (especially having met him) until I saw these puerile photos. Those with "privileged" access and a dependent relationship with the space fraternity taking the opportunity to make ridicule (inadvertently or advertently) is pretty sad, whatever the underlying motive. How quickly opinions can be changed. |
hinkler
Member Posts: 590
From: Melbourne, Victoria, AUSTRALIA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 03-15-2010 05:24 PM
Puerile? Privileged access? Dependent relationship? Ridicule?Nope. Can't see that at all. A bit of fun? Can see that! Nothing wrong with a sense of humour. This is a hobby and supposed to be fun. Just my personal opinion for what it is worth. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 442
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 03-15-2010 06:55 PM
Well, I can say for myself that I have a love/hate relationship with Gen. Anders.Love in that he's retired USAF, and I'm retired USAF. Also that he and I both grew up in San Diego CA, and my parents were both involved with the SDASM, as is he. Hate in that he went to a rival high school of mine, in the town next-door.  |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3704
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 03-15-2010 07:35 PM
In getting back to the original forum topic, "Signing experience: Bill Anders," Gen. Anders was my first autograph, 2nd in-person signature to get from an astronaut, and one of the first autographs to receive through the mail. There was a cS-posting authored by me in Feb. 2004, "What was your first astronaut autograph?" In my case, it was Anders, as the posting relates to. What I didn't include in the earlier posting was my second astronaut encounter while at the VIP site during one of the later Apollo moon shots in 1972. About half-an-hour before liftoff time, Anders was coming down from one of the viewstand bleachers by himself. Once I was near him, away from the bleachers, I got closer to him--and very timidly--asked if he would sign two of my Apollo 8 postal covers. He took the two covers from me and scribbled an "Anders" on both envelopes. Being a shy young teenager at the time, I said, "Thank you very much, sir, as I am so thrilled to meet you." He gave me a quick nod as we both departed. That was one of my first astronaut encounters, and I didn't cost me a thing for the two signatures (LOL). Another similar "firsts" of mine was getting a signed portrait of Anders through the mail. After leaving the astronaut corps in 1969, when he was Executive Secretary of the National Aeronautics and Space Council, I wrote off to his new office requesting a signed picture of him in the mail. Not getting a reply from my first attempt in early 1970, I tried again about 3 months later. But still, no response, and I tried even again and again throughout the rest of the year; still no answer back! Finally, after 4-5 attempts to reach him, there was a large envelope addressed to me from his Washington, D.C. office location. "Could this be it!," I said to myself, and long and behold, inside was an official NASA 8x10 litho to signed in a heavy black marker pen, "To Ken, Bill Anders." One of my favorite autograph items of Anders is indeed an unusual piece. I have a letter from him, dated in Aug. 1991, in which Anders himself is requesting an autograph! Yep, you heard me right, which reads in part... "I have a favor to ask. Would you please autograph the Edward H. White II card? I'd be honored to have you do it, since I was such an admirer of your Dad for his contributions and of you for your idea. Also, my sad role in informing your mother of his untimely death is marked in my memory forever. "...I've enclosed an autographed card of the picture I took of the "Earthrise" on Apollo 8. My guess is that these cards may supplant first day covers and pictures, as the autograph collectors medium, since they are so easy to mail..." |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1527
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-21-2010 01:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jut2y:
Here is one of mine and I was thrilled with it.
Paul, did Anders sign your item first, to which you then added Lovell, or had Lovell already signed it before you had Anders sign it? Bottom line: Does Gen. Anders sign multi-signed items? |
BMacKinnon
Member Posts: 236
From: Waterford, MI. USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-21-2010 01:35 PM
WOW! I can't believe the rude reaction of some to the hilarious photos posted by Francis! I am glad to call Francis a friend and will support him in whatever endeavour he supports.Hopefully someday I will be able to add Gen. Anders to my Earthrise litho to complete it. Just a chance to speak to him in person would delight most collectors. I also collect autographs that are non-space related and most people would be shocked at what the A-list actors and big name sports stars charge. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-21-2010 05:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by BMacKinnon:
I am glad to call Francis a friend...
I consider him a friend too. I'm sure he's not happy with my criticism, but I am not happy with him on the photos. I think he was used... quote:
Just a chance to speak to him (Anders) in person would delight most collectors.
...if he's thinking "another nerd" the whole time? quote:
most people would be shocked at what the A-list actors and big name sports stars charge.
I don't think anyone charges $2500, Brad. but I agree. Could you post some of them? |
BMacKinnon
Member Posts: 236
From: Waterford, MI. USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-21-2010 09:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Spacefest:
I don't think anyone charges $2500, Brad. but I agree. Could you post some of them?
Here is an example of some high end celebrity autographs.I find their prices outrageous for the "A" list celebrities. I'll stick to the affordable in person autographs that I can get at shows. Celebrity Authentics is main source for big name celebrities that don’t normally do in-person signings. quote:
...if he's thinking "another nerd" the whole time?
Your business has survived from us nerds, is that your view of us or your assumed viewpoint of Gen. Anders? Do you not view us as serious collectors with a passion for space quote:
I'm sure he's gracious, intelligent, Blah, blah, blah, but his self-serving reasons for not signing detract from all that.
Do you assume his reasons are self-serving because he won't sign for you? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-21-2010 09:37 PM
I think something is being lost here, at least as I see it. Bill Anders has not set the price of his autograph at $2,500. He has decided to thank those who donate $2,500 or more to charities of his liking with an autograph. The distinction may seem like only semantics to some, but it would be like saying that PBS charges $250 for a tote bag, when in reality they are providing the tote bag as a token of their gratitude for your donation of $250 or more. Of course, the tote bag is not worth $250 (or more), but that's not the point of the gift. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-21-2010 11:38 PM
You sound stung, Brad, that wasn't my intention.The celebrity autographs are filtered through the dealer markup. Most probably don't sign directly at shows. So it's not a good comparison, I guess. Of course, the "nerd" comment was made by the General. Read previous threads. My avarice towards Anders, concerns his attitude towards collectors. I stopped asking for a signing years ago. His only value is as part of a completion. That's not a good recipe for a profitable signing. I have family and employees counting on me. Anders has plenty of money, he could fund several museums on his own. He obviously enjoys seeing collectors jump through hoops. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 03-22-2010 12:33 AM
A lot of people could easily see the photos posted by Francis as a rub in the face of space enthusiasts/collectors who are genuine fans of Anders and who want his autograph, but cannot afford the minimum donation criteria to obtain one. Certainly, some of the postings here already indicate that some got that impression after seeing the photos.Editor's note: This post was edited. |
Ade74
Member Posts: 47
From: Peterborough, England
Registered: Nov 2009
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posted 03-22-2010 08:33 AM
Going back quickly to an earlier question raised if I may......do we know if Gen. Anders only signs his earthrise picture or will he sign other multiple signatures prints? |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3415
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 03-22-2010 10:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ade74:
...do we know if Gen. Anders only signs his earthrise picture or will he sign other multiple signatures prints?
Judging by the items listed at Regency Superior's next auction (albeit consigned by the museum), he will sign anything. At the ASF show he indicated likewise. |
cddfspace
Member Posts: 635
From: Morris County, NJ, USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 03-23-2010 11:14 AM
Ok - here's the question... I have an Apollo Emblem litho 8x10 multi-signed 22 signatures (of 33 possible - yes, I had Cernan, Young, Lovell and Scott all sign twice). Each astronaut has added their mission and role (CDR, LMP, CMP). Of the living astronauts, I still need Schmitt, Armstrong and Anders. I know when you assemble a multi-signed piece, from a value perspective, you usually spend more then you would ever hope to recoup if sold (I am in it for the collection value, not the resale value). Having said that... I assume I will add Schmitt when he does another signing. I also assume that Armstrong will not sign. That brings us to Anders. From a collector's perspective (assuming that $2500 IS a lot of money, but could be paid at the sacrifice of purchasing other collectables), would you get Anders to sign, or feel comfortable in the fact that this is a pretty good piece even without Anders' signature. Thoughts? Thanks. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1391
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 03-23-2010 11:36 AM
I wouldn't pay anyone $2500 to sign anything, period. I wouldn't donate $2500 to any charity in hopes of receiving a "thank you" gift in the form of a signed photo. After all, if it is a gift of gratitude, then it should not be promised or expected. A "gift" by any other arrangement is, quite simply, a sale. |
andrewcli
Member Posts: 328
From: La Jolla, CA, USA
Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 03-23-2010 12:36 PM
I too have a special piece that I having been going back and forth on whether or not to pull the trigger to have Gen. Anders sign it. It's the Eagle's ascent and has been signed by 16 Apollo astronauts. Each one of them wrote something pertaining to their mission. I finally completed my vintage crew patches quest (thank you Donnis!) and will frame it with the signed poster along with a small replica of the Apollo 11 plaque. To have him write, "We'll see you on the other side," would be perfect. If it were half the amount, I would probably go for it. I would also like to get Schmitt's autograph and maybe Mattingly and Engle - Beep Beep! |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1527
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 03-23-2010 02:01 PM
Assuming the museum is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization, then any donation you make would be tax deductible. As noted above, if you were in a 40% tax bracket, with a $2500 donation you'd get $1000 back from the IRS in the form of reduced taxes, provided you are not also subject to the charitable deduction cap. |
jamato99
Member Posts: 150
From: Leesburg, VA USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 03-23-2010 03:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cddfspace:
From a collector's perspective (assuming that $2500 IS a lot of money, but could be paid at the sacrifice of purchasing other collectables), would you get Anders to sign, or feel comfortable in the fact that this is a pretty good piece even without Anders' signature.
I'm in a similar position in that I have a multi-signed Apollo piece that's missing Anders and six other living Apollo astronauts. I'm thankful that I can afford to add Anders if I really wanted to, but I just can't imagine dropping that much money on a single signature. Armstrong is the only one I'd even consider paying $2,500 for, and even that would be a stretch.Remember - he's only writing his name and maybe a quote or a mission inscription. That's it. I feel like John Young's fees at Novaspace are too much to pay without actually getting to meet him, so $2,500 is out of the question for me. The way I look at it is, like you, I already have Lovell on my piece so Apollo 8 is covered. My piece is complete in that it has at least one signature from every lunar mission and at least one moonwalker signature from each of the lunar landings. I've pretty much accepted the fact that I won't add Armstrong or Anders and I'm OK with it. |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1803
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 03-23-2010 04:27 PM
In my opinion, paying $2500 for the signature of a living (but reclusive) astronaut (and not even moonwalker... never mind the first moonwalker!) is nigh on insanity. If it was $300 or so I would be inclined to participate but for $2500 I can have a very nice holiday with my wife and ONE signature would not give me the same amount of pleasure/enjoyment in life that a vacation/holiday would. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 51189
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 03-23-2010 04:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by machbusterman:
...ONE signature would not give me the same amount of pleasure/enjoyment in life that a vacation/holiday would.
Nor apparently, would be the knowledge that your donation went to awarding a deserving student or helping to restore and maintain vintage air and spacecraft, or have I misunderstood? |
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