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Author
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Topic: Neil Armstrong-inscribed "One small step"
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chet
Member Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-06-2004 09:46 PM
   
Wow! Archived from eBay Item 3911439855: Other views: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 |
denem
Member Posts: 141
From: Columbia, SC, USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 05-06-2004 10:47 PM
You are correct to say 'wow'. Notice that he wrote "That's one small step for a man". I guess that the mystery is now over. It's not: "That's one small step for man..." but instead it's: "That's one small step for a man...". Think it'll reach the asking price of $350K? As nice as this item is, I personally don't think so! |
Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 05-06-2004 10:59 PM
No, the mystery is not over. Remember, he had about 4 days to think about those words before this inscription. How, many times have you thought, "Gosh, I should have said that!" just 1 hour after the opportunity. I still believe that the "a" was not said, but he either just forgot in the excitement or he thought that it sounded better later on.In regards to the 350K price tag - absolutely ridiculous. I would say 20K at the highest and even that would be pushing it very far. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-06-2004 11:01 PM
It would not surprise me to see it sell for these figures.
This is the most important document I have ever seen. I knew this piece existed, but had never seen it before. A true gem and worth the price tag. Should be interesting to watch! |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 05-06-2004 11:05 PM
That's two of these type of Armstrong inscriptions I know of out in the world. There is another "One small step..." written on an Apollo 11 beta cloth patch in an Ohio home basement.If this piece reaches the asking price, then I will hazard a guess that there will be more of these coming out on the market, both real and forged. This gentleman must have hit every dealer and auction house in the space market seeking a value and was told anywhere between $10,000 and $50,000. I guess he didn't like those valuations. I find unimaginable that the bid price will be realized. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-06-2004 11:05 PM
I believe this item is a flown to the lunar surface artifact. That makes it worth the price tag. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-06-2004 11:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by fabfivefreddy:
I believe this item is a flown to the lunar surface artifact. That makes it worth the price tag.
Neither the flight plan nor the patch flew. |
denem
Member Posts: 141
From: Columbia, SC, USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 05-06-2004 11:15 PM
Maybe when the auction ends (with no bids, of course), we can email him and offer him $500 for it?  (I'm kidding.)
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Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-06-2004 11:50 PM
Am I going blind or is "Commander" written on this item with one "m"? I've tried enlarging the image and rotating it and I still cannot tell.If real this is remarkable and extremely valuable, though I don't know about the price. |
chet
Member Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-07-2004 12:21 AM
I believe the 2nd "M" in Commander is merely obscured by the printed timeline on the flight plan.Despite its blockbuster nature, I don't see this piece getting any bids at the opening price (unless maybe Tom Hanks or Bill Gates gets wind of this auction) because, let's not forget, Mr. Armstrong is still living. I think it's certainly worth way more than $20K however. It would've been nice if the seller had some feedback, and started bidding at $1000 or so with a hefty reserve; now that'd be an interesting auction to watch! As is, about the only thing worth watching here will be how many "hits" the page gets. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-07-2004 12:26 AM
I agree with Chet - I personally think $50,000 - $100,000 is more reasonable. He is still living and we really do not know how many times he has written this. Only he knows. That said, even if he has written it many times it is still very very valuable. |
chet
Member Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-07-2004 01:46 AM
I think Scott's estimate of around $50K would be borne out if this auction were begun at lower levels. Richard's estimate of ~$20k would seem appropriate if this were "merely" signed as it is; I believe what would push it much higher is that it was signed (so the seller states -- documentation would be great if it's available) while Armstrong was still in quarantine. That would make it unique, even among other samples similarly signed (assuming he didn't sign a bunch of these while in quarantine, of course). |
Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-07-2004 05:11 AM
It certainly looks authentic and most likely is, but even at the lower end of the figures mentioned in this thread I would wanna know who the seller was and see some sort of cast iron documented provenance that puts this page in the quarantine facility while the astronauts were there.From Robert's and Tahir's comments it does sound like you know more about this item, is there further info that you are able to share with us? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-07-2004 06:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Davies:
From Robert's and Tahir's comments it does sound like you know more about this item, is there further info that you are able to share with us?
Someone (not necessarily the seller) connected with this piece contacted collectSPACE several weeks ago with more information about its origin, soliciting advice for its sale. That said, cS is not associated with this sale. I would suggest e-mailing the seller with your questions. |
Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 05-07-2004 10:20 AM
The problem is that noone really knows how many of these are out there. It's sort of like the unfortunate person who spent 300K for Irwin's tag. You can rest assured that if a high price is obtained, you will see a lot of these coming out of the woodwork. 350K - ridiculous! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-07-2004 10:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
It's sort of like the unfortunate person who spent 300K for Irwin's tag.
Just curious... why was the buyer unfortunate? There are only 12 of these in existence, with at least six confirmed still on the Moon. I would think it would be much more accurate to say that the person who purchased Scott's -- if indeed it sold -- was extremely fortunate... |
chet
Member Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-07-2004 12:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
You can rest assured that if a high price is obtained, you will see a lot of these coming out of the woodwork. 350K - ridiculous!
Though Armstrong has signed his name thousands upon thousands of times, he has made clear the number of times he quoted himself in writing is extremely limited.I don't think even a high price for this piece being realized will "create" more of them than those which already exist; it's unlikely we'll see a great many more of these "coming out of the woodwork". There are many collecting experts here -- besides the one Larry remarked on, in Ohio, how many more are even known about, much less ever even seen? |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-07-2004 01:43 PM
I have no further info on this item. A prominent dealer told me that $250k is a reasonable selling price for this item in a lucrative catalog/auction. We have to draw parallels to other historical events. For example, a signed quote in an inaugural address of JFK ("Ask not what your country can do for you..") sold for $200k. A Lincoln letter discussing an important civil war period sold for one million.
Most documents of high historical significance are not available to the public any more. For example, a Bush order to start the invasion of Iraq would be quite valuable, but will never come to the market. I agree that it is a lot to pay for a living person, but Armstrong is an exception IMO because he is the only living person today that has this caliber of importance. 500 years from now history will know who Armstrong is. Our leaders of today will be less prominent or forgotten. This item is "a holy grail" for these reasons. Of course, a true hammer price is what it is really worth! |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1255
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 05-07-2004 03:40 PM
The seller approached three fairly prominent dealers in the space field as well as an auction house. The best price they gave was $50K at auction as a possibility. I know of two of these pieces (including one that is written on a flown Apollo 11 beta cloth patch) now. How many more of these will come out? Maybe in 150 years the value will be commensurate with the examples previously used as Lincoln's signed - souvenir copies of the Emancipation Proclamation from the 1864 Sanitary Fair. What has also scared a couple of dealers is Armstrong's use of the famous fading blue ink. Just how long will these pieces truly last? I would not fancy seeing my money "fade into the blue." |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-07-2004 04:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
The problem is that noone really knows how many of these are out there. It's sort of like the unfortunate person who spent 300K for Irwin's tag.
That's true. And Joe makes a good point, too when he says that even though this looks real, a prospective buyer sure better be sure before shelling out enough money to buy a house. Provenance of some sort in the form of a letter (even from the seller) or photos would be very helpful. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-07-2004 04:33 PM
Chet I think when Richard said "coming out of the woodwork" he was referring to items of dubious nature. (Or he might have indeed meant real ones that had been secreted away. Sorry if I misinterpreted, Richard.) But, as others have said, this one does look real.Larry makes an excellent point about fading potential. This ink is very visible, but has apparently faded slightly, and I would hope that it is because it has been displayed. |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 05-07-2004 11:19 PM
IF I was a billionaire I'd snap this up in a second at the asking bid. I wouldn't chance someone else beating me to the punch. But I'm not, nor likely to be, said billionaire. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-08-2004 09:58 PM
Wayne, you remember a year ago when you said you wanted something just like this as your dream autograph? At the time I thought one like this did not exist, because Armstrong says he doesn't quote himself. Now that I think about it though, he doesn't say he's never quoted himself before...  |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 05-08-2004 10:53 PM
Yeah this is a wonderful item. I gotta wonder now if there are any "Houston, Tranquility Base here, the Eagle has landed." out there? If so and I was rich it's the one I'd prefer.Hmmm, maybe I'll win the lottery. Of course ya gotta play to win and I usually don't. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-09-2004 12:48 AM
Wayne - maybe that's the quote you had mentioned. I might be mistaken. As for the cost, as you know here in Texas there are still a few lotto drawings before the auction ends. It's worth a try! |
Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 05-09-2004 11:56 AM
The problem is 2-fold. First, you have the problem with better and better forgeries. Take Peachstate for example and others that have been discussed here. I'm sure that there are quite a few people in basements trying their hand at a blue sharpie. Furthermore, Armstrong is still alive! Now, I'm not trying to get anyone mad here, so please don't attack me too much, but I feel that I need to play "devil's advocate" in this. Just because Armstrong never quotes himself for strangers or friends, does that hold up for family members or wives, etc? quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Just curious... why was the buyer unfortunate? There are only 12 of these in existence, with at least six confirmed still on the Moon.
I do feel that the person was unfortunate. In any case, the value of an object is based on recent auction estimates. The period when the Irwin patch was purchased was during the height of prices when practically every object was overvalued. I feel that it is basically like the following example. Suppose I find an incredibly rare Beanie-baby with an early 90's auction estimate for 10K of which only a very few exist. Say it was purchased by a person for that price. If I have another sell it to you for $1000 would you call yourself fortunate for getting a good deal? Also, would you still refer to the other owner as also fortunate for spending that amount? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-09-2004 01:40 PM
I disagree that an artifact's value is always equivalent to recent auction results. That may hold true for mass-produced collectibles like Beanie Babies, but for historical relics, prices inflate and deflate based on exterior influences. Judging an artifact's long-term value on the most recent prices paid for similar pieces can be a disservice to both the item and its owner.For similar reasons, I agree that no one auction's results should be used to offer appraisals. My comments do depend on whether we are discussing an artifact's intrinsic value or the price someone will pay for it right now. Assuming the owner of Irwin's PLSS patch (for example) is not in any rush to sell, then I would not label the purchase unfortunate. Far from it. If, on the other hand, the owner wanted to sell immediately, it might be difficult (though potentially not impossible) to recoup their investment. I felt in 1999, and still feel today, that the price paid for Irwin's PLSS patch was not unreasonable. Not only was it a striking artifact (especially in-person) but its provenance included a letter from a NASA official on the agency's stationery attesting to the presence of lunar material. You couldn't ask for much more. Those fortunate to pick up solidly-documented, lunar surface exposed equipment for less are just that: fortunate. |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-09-2004 01:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
First, you have the problem with better and better forgeries... Furthermore, Armstrong is still alive!
I actually agree with your thoughts. You are right -- forgeries can and will appear. That is ok -- we see it with all other categories. Space collectors are just now worrying more about this because these items have just recently gotten this expensive. This does not decrease the value of real items, in fact, it may increase values because it makes real ones more desirable. I also agree with your statement about the extraordinary prices seen at high profile auction events. An auction like that does not mean that an item is suddenly worth a huge amount. It is supply and demand. The prices always "normalize" as dealers and other auctioneers sell similar items. As far as Armstrong's signing habits are concerned, I seriously doubt that he has a stash of these "one giant leap" type quotes for his family. He seems to pride himself on his integrity. Such an individual, IMO, is not likely to leave a legacy of a different sort. In essence, I believe he will stick to his same pattern- restricting items to just an elite few for family as well. There will never be a flood of these rare, historical items. Just my thoughts- no proof or evidence. I could be wrong! Keep in mind that Button Gwinett is considered the most expensive autograph (signature only). The reason is that there are only 12 of them or so known in the world. Who is Button Gwinett? A signer of the U.S. Declaration of Independence that didn't do much else. He died without signing much (that was preserved anyway). His autograph is $150-200k because collectors need him to complete a set of signers. If there are more of these Armstrong quotes out there, it does effect price, but not by much in my view. It will next depend on what the quote is on. A paper? a crew photo? a flight plan? a flown item? Imagine the prices... Great comments, I enjoyed this discussion. |
Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-09-2004 02:27 PM
The most expensive autograph that I am aware of is William Shakespeare - the noted autograph dealer Charles Hamilton had a standing offer of $1 million for a Shakespeare autograph, and there are supposedly only 6 known examples - 4 in his will, interestingly all of which are spelled in various ways and look to be executed by different hands!I also believe that there are only two known examples of Christopher Columbus signature. Any Shakespeare or Columbus autograph/signature coming to the market would doubtless fetch in excess of a million, maybe several times that. The signed quote offered on eBay is not in this league. It is a fantastic item for any enthusiast of space memorabilia, but don't forget that Gwinnett, Shakespeare and Columbus have stood the test of time. Us space enthusiasts like to believe that Armstrong will be remembered for many centuries, but its quite possible his name will have long been forgotten before the end of this century. And while the signed quote does lend a historical perspective to one of mankind's greatest achievements there may well be other examples of this quote (there are a lot of pages in a flight plan and a bored Armstrong in quarantine), and this from a signer who has probably signed in excess of 100,000 times! Collectibles aren't about intrinsic value, they really are about what someone will pay, and that is their value in financial terms. Of course, their personal "value" and appeal is sometimes immeasurable. If the provenance and history, and importantly the seller, of the Armstrong signed quote check out ok then it is a valuable item, but in my opinion considerably less than the figures in the eBay listing. I would estimate its value as around $25,000. Its a great item but only time will tell if it is an historically important item, and its attraction is in a very specialised area to a relatively small appreciative audience. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 05-09-2004 05:07 PM
Joe, I agree with most of what you say, but the only way Armstrong will not be remembered for centuries is if a huge meteor wipes out all human life sometime in the not too distant future. We have only one moon, and he was the first person to step on it. I do not regard him as a god or anything, but his historical standing is formidable and unmatched.Also, y'all do mention the rarest of all autographs, except the rarest known one. It is of Christopher Marlowe. Until about 50 years ago (I may be wrong about the date) an example of his autograph was not thought to exist. A single example of it was then discovered with two other members of his family as a witness to a will. True he does not have the stature of William Shakespeare, but Marlowe was murdered at age 29 in the prime of his literary powers. If Shakespeare had died at that age, he would be virtually unknown today. |
Joe Davies
Member Posts: 258
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 05-09-2004 06:33 PM
My premise was with regard to values more than pure rarity, I guess there are quite a few Neanderthals from 100,000 years ago with no known examples of their autographs. And that IS the point. Marlowe is no longer well known, when in his era he may have been the Madonna. Its history that will decide who has fame, and who not, and that is not something that we today can influence. Pure rarity is not an important facet, only when allied to fashion and fame, and then rarity matters, but for someone who has signed as much as Armstrong has, his autograph will probably always be more in demand than supply, but that does not it rare and valuable - expensive yes, but rare and valuable - no. Armstrong is very famous NOW, but because the people who come to this forum think his achievement is important historically, does not mean that future generations will do so. Go ask 100 15 years olds who Neil Armstrong is/was and then ask the same question about Columbus, Shakespeare, or Madonna. I'll wager you a hefty sum the FAR fewer will correctly identify Armstrong, and this trend is more likely to continue than not. One does receive accolade extending through future history purely because one did something no-one has done before. As much as one may like to think and believe that Armstrong's fame will last, only time will tell. Whereas Columbus and Shakespeare HAVE lasted, in the historical perspective, and in fact compared to their day, their fame has grown, and THIS is a prime facet of whether an autograph (or quote) is valuable or not. Please understand, I am in no way belittling the wonderful (if shown to have provenance and legal title to sell) the Armstrong quote - I'd LOVE to add it to my personal collection. But in a historical perspective it cannot at the moment be considered to be the equal of some of the mentioned past autographs. It may well do so! And the astute buyer well well cough up half a mill for it and in 300 years be very much better off, but in today's world, that quote in the way it is offered is simply not worth a fraction of the asking price. And that, is a fact - now go buy it for half a mill and prove me wrong. |
Davide
Member Posts: 56
From: Venezia, Italy
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 05-10-2004 04:31 AM
I believe that during the first decades of 1500, very few 15 (or 25, or 40) years olds known who Columbus were.In my opinion, the name of Neil Armstrong will last for centuries, as the Cristoforo Colombo's name. In every case, we can not verify that... |
JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 05-10-2004 04:53 PM
Armstrong wil be remembered for many centuries to come, but like all celebrities they have a zenith of popularity which usually peaks in the 10-20 years after they die, and then dwindles as time goes on and people move on to the next big thing.As far as the forgeries, there's no question in my mind that people will start adding inscriptions like this to items both forged and authentically signed by Armstrong. They've already started forging personalizations to items, so they'll definately go where the money is. Obvious forgeries are getting $2-400(or more), so an obvious forgery with an inscription like that will probably get 1000 or more. If there's that much money available people will do it ALOT. And as long as Armstrong fans the flames by refusing to sign it will only get worse.
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Richard
New Member Posts: 5
From: Morrisonville, New York USA
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted 05-10-2004 05:46 PM
I agree. However, with Armstrong, in comparison to figures like Marylin Monroe and JFK, I also feel that a forgery is much easier to produce. The reason is that Armstrong is still living. With Armstrong, you can still use modern materials. However, with the other 2, you would have much more difficulty because you would have to make sure that the photo is the correct age, the ink is properly aged and the proper type, etc. This would seem to at least limit the number of "passable" forgeries with earlier figures of history. I feel this doesn't hold true so much with Armstrong's signature. Do others agree? |
astronut
Member Posts: 969
From: South Fork, CO
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 05-10-2004 08:01 PM
I still wish I was a billionaire 'cause I'd be happy to overpay for this quote. If I paid the asking price it'd only be .035% of my wealth.Lemme find my hammer so I can bust my piggy bank and see if I have 100,000,000,000 pennies in it. If so what's 35,000,000 pennies in the grand scheme of things? |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 10-23-2005 12:15 PM
I just got a copy of Hansen's "First Man". In it, Armstrong categorically denies ever quoting himself. Not even for his mother or the Smithsonian. Is he mistaken that he never wrote this? Was this eBay item a very, very good forgery?
Interesting to ponder... |
Cameron Stark
Member Posts: 45
From: United Kingdom
Registered: May 2005
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posted 10-24-2005 02:50 PM
I wonder where this values an outstanding Gagarin item? The interest in Neil Armstrong and Apollo 11 is obviously justified, and this is an exceptional item. If historical importance is the key however, then in global terms, the first person in space may be the key autograph. I'd be surprised if Neil Armstrong's name was relegated to the small print of history, but perhaps Gagarin's will be written in even larger print! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-24-2005 02:58 PM
There have been several "outstanding" Gagarin documents that have come to market over the past decade. Perhaps most famously, was Gagarin's handwritten Vostok 1 official post-flight report that Christie's East offered in 2001 and which sold for $176,000 (including the buyer's commission). |
fabfivefreddy
Member Posts: 1067
From: Leawood, Kansas USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 10-24-2005 03:51 PM
Robert is correct, there are some high profile Gagarin items that have sold for six figures.
They were original documents and of great historical interest. The same goes for documents related to the Wright brothers at Kitty Hawk, Charles Lindbergh, etc. |
DSeuss5490
Member Posts: 299
From: Columbus, Ohio USA
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 10-25-2005 06:18 PM
I dont think that was a forgery at all. In fact, I am aware of another one here in Columbus, Ohio that I saw a few years ago. It is a beta cloth inscribed in Sept. 1969 and the recipient told me the story that on the day he received it he asked Armstrong to write his quote, which he glady did. The personal inscription and quote are in two different inks, but it is beautiful nonetheless. Unfortunately at the time, it was being displayed in a $1.00 frame in the basement study where I saw it. |
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