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Author
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Topic: Review: The Peachstate/Haecker Documents
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albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-29-2001 04:54 PM
   
Robert - I dont believe ANYONE doubts your assertions or what you did. However, until this paper trail and all its attendant paraphenalia is made public there will be many many doubts. And it has NOTHING to do with you or the hard work you put into it. Maybe Haecker bought them from Jackson, there are tons of possibilities here. Best, Al |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-29-2001 04:57 PM
Robert - You also made the statement Haecker, lived, died and collected autographs. With this all being so secretive, its not established if he SOLD autographs or these SPECIFIC autographs etc etc etc. So the jury is still out where these originated from. You may be satisfied, and I'm glad if you are. Seriously. However as we discussed before, thats asking a lot of people to swallow a very large pill without water. It's the secrecy. I understand "client confidentiality" but to a degree. Al |
Dennis Talbot
Member Posts: 172
From: Terrigal NSW Australia
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-29-2001 04:59 PM
I don't doubt your word at all Robert and I didn't know that Haecker's identity had been confirmed but I would still like to know of Mr Frohman's association with Shawn Jackson. There is far more than meets the eye hear and if it was an eloborate con to relieve Mr Frohman of his money then he was a fool but if it wasn't then there is something far more sinister involved. I am sure that far more will be revealed if people would speak of things that have only been spoken of either in private or away from this forum. Either way I think Mr Frohman should be courageous enough to step forward and answer questions without spin. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-29-2001 05:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
Maybe Haecker bought them from Jackson, there are tons of possibilities here.
That is certainly a possibility -- but to suggest they are one and the same (unless I read Dennis' post incorrectly), at least to me, is pushing this a bit too far.So, let me ask a question, given that someone thinks there is a connection between Shawn Jackson (another alleged forgery artist), Ernest Haecker, and David Frohman and presumeably examples of Jackson's Armstrong autographs are known -- do they resemble the Haecker alleged forgeries? Are there any reasons these gentlemen are suggested to be connected? (Did I miss something?) |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-29-2001 05:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
You may be satisfied, and Im glad if you are. Seriously. However as we discussed before, thats asking a lot of people to swallow a very large pill without water.
To tell the truth, I am not entirely satisfied and I am glad that collectors care enough about our hobby (and business) to continue on so passionately. That said, its hypocritical to demand Peachstate to back up their claims while at the same time accepting hearsay and unfounded accusations as sufficient proof to accuse Peachstate of wrong doing. If you are willing to accept circumstantial evidence to drive your own accusations (and Al, I am using "your own" in the general sense, not specifically you) than you must be ready to accept the same from the person whom you are demanding answers. If you hold yourself to only citing the facts, then you force the opposite party to deliver the same. |
chet
Member Posts: 1506
From: Beverly Hills, Calif.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 11-29-2001 05:15 PM
Robert, again, I'd like to know if you have had any indication that Mr. Frohman intends to "return" to this thread.Grinding water isn't my cup of tea. (Mixing metaphors is!) -Chet |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-29-2001 05:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by chet:
Robert, again, I'd like to know if you have had any indication that Mr. Frohman intends to "return" to this thread.
I have had no indication from David if he will or will not post again. I have been busy today (I do have a day job ) but will try to reach him tonight to learn his intentions. |
rail3cards
Member Posts: 94
From: Staten Island, New York
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-29-2001 08:04 PM
Wow, not much to be said after reading many of the posts. However I would like to add my 2 cents. 1. If you print and sell a booklet on Armstrong and you elect yourself an expert in authenticating Armstrong's you better know what your talking about. There is no excuse for selling so many questionable Armstrong's. Period..... 2. In this month's Autograph Collector, December 2001, Peachstate Historical Consulting in their ad advertises: "Specializing in the Finest Material of the Space Program" Hey Dave, you better brush up on Authentication 101. The upside to this situation is that at least refunds are being granted. Better late than never. |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-29-2001 08:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
To tell the truth, I am not entirely satisfied and I am glad that collectors care enough about our hobby (and business) to continue on so passionately.
That is heartening Robert, thanks. quote:
That said, its hypocritical to demand Peachstate to back up their claims while at the same time accepting hearsay and unfounded accusations as sufficient proof to accuse Peachstate of wrong doing.
Who's doing that? I understand you aren't referring to me as I've made no such accusations irrespective as to what someone would suggest (not you), however, all I see are instead of accusations, questions being asked (and ignored). While emotions are running high, there are certainly enough legitimate questions out there to be considered. quote:
If you are willing to accept circumstantial evidence to drive your own accusations (and Al, I am using "your own" in the general sense, not specifically you) than you must be ready to accept the same from the person whom you are demanding answers.)
Well I disagree with this one from both ends. I'm not accepting anything circumstantial. Heck thats been the problem so far all along. quote:
If you hold yourself to only citing the facts, then you force the opposite party to deliver the same.
I think the majority are Robert, and still seeing NO response to those either. Anyway I think everyone here was under the mistaken assumption this would be a Q&A and not a place for a few posts and then gone. Since its obvious all of this is being, and will be ignored, I too feel its become no longer a viable place to question or further this thread. And that's sad in a way. People can say what they want (and usually do especially with little or no information) but I truly hoped to clear this matter up positively. Its a black eye to the hobby/business and the cloud still hovers- which is exactly why I offered to redo what you did only out in the open. Had this been dealt with WITHOUT the spin, and direct answers to many unanswered questions, and OUT IN THE OPEN, this would not be the case now. Possibly he's embarrassed, and possibly he feels its no win as people are piling on. I understand those areas too. But still the same, its left dangling. Sometimes ya gotta suck it up and face the crowds. It's also sad to see people with personal axes to grind attack others out of the blue too. But it doesn't surprise me. That's another part of the hobby thats poison too. There have been some who have called for this to end. Count me in those ranks. Best, Al |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-29-2001 08:40 PM
I have just gotten off the phone with David.David has requested that any further questions not already answered by his posts thus far, be sent to him directly via e-mail. Due to his workload, he cannot promise an immediate response, but assures me that he will reply to all relevant e-mails. He is new to the message board format and finds that he would be more productive if the queries were handled in this manner. As the moderator, I have agreed to comply with his request and would kindly ask that any future postings be concentrated on issues that do not require David's attention. As always, personal attacks will not be tolerated and given the emotional level of this discussion, I would suggest a cooling down period if and before we resume posting. |
xxcygni
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 11-29-2001 10:21 PM
I agree with the cooling off period. However, one request that I would like to continue to make is for scans of items that are part of the recall. I received a surprising number of responses very quickly and then things have dried up in the last 24 hours as the discussion rapidly evolved to another direction. One surprising twist is that I've received as many scans of Collins as I have of Armstrong. I don't believe this is a representative sample so I urge you to please take the time to send a scan. I believe it is important to the hobby to have these items documented as throughly as possible. Further, I hope to be able to work with Mr. Frohman to make the sample as comprehensive as possible. Remember that the purchasers name will not be connected to the scan. If possible, I would like to catalog them by date of purchase but for right now, I'm naming them in the order I receive them. Email to jonerm@forty-two.byu.edu Thanks again, Mike Joner |
mzieg
Member Posts: 72
From: Seneca, PA USA
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-29-2001 10:34 PM
There have dozens of postings over the last week regarding the "Peachstate Affair", but any hope for closure really seems elusive and unlikely. In a lot of ways we're really no closer to resolving many of the questions raised now than we were a week ago, and the chances of them being answered to everybody's satisfaction as time passes seem even more remote.I owned one of those Peachstate Armstrong forgeries. There's little I can add that hasn't already been said in that respect, especially the observations about the recall being an exercize in damage control once the flag test was about to be announced, and the notion that a full refund didn't begin to cover the replacement cost of a REAL Armstrong signed photo as prices escalated over time. I mentioned all those points (and a few others) to Dave at the time of his recall, but he was inflappable - always courteous, but unswayed by my arguements. I, like Al, believe it's probably time for this thread to end. There are people on both sides of this issue that are unlikely to be swayed from their position no matter how long it continues. The discussions and postings may have changed a few people's opinions, and if nothing else, it's been an education for those "in the middle" that have had no dealings with Peachstate, either good or bad. Ultimately, people are going to spend their money where they feel comfortable doing so, and that's certainly their choice. Hopefully the issues raised will help those who had no opinion or knowledge of the Peachstate forgeries make informed decisions on future purchases. I hate to see a lot of the questions that have been raised go unanswered, but I think this horse has been riden as far as she's gonna go. M Ziegler |
Dennis Talbot
Member Posts: 172
From: Terrigal NSW Australia
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-30-2001 08:27 AM
And in conclusion: waste of time waste of bandwidth. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1744
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 11-30-2001 11:43 AM
Before this well-worn thread is closed, I thought it may be relevant to post the following. Forgery isn't new to space autograph collecting...CHARLES RISER, space dealer. Never heard of him? Then you are probably one of the majority of present-day space collectors who entered the space hobby after 1990. That was about when space collecting started to become really popular, prices rose & many dealers set up shop to join in on the action.
Those of us who have collected at least back into the 1970's know all about Charles Riser. Riser was a very successful, popular & trusted space dealer in the '60's & early '70's. He published a space newsletter that kept collectors up-to-date on space news & astronaut autographs. He also created & sold current space covers, called Andromeda Space Covers, & sold older space event covers, many of them autographed. Riser sold many rare space covers, many autographed by various Mercury astronauts, including Gus Grissom, & even some by Wernher von Braun (he specialized in 8 autographs - the 7 Mercury astronauts & W. von Braun). Many collectors wondered where Riser got so many rare & valuable space covers, especially with so many autographed. And some collectors even questioned the authenticity of the autographs. Riser seemed to be able to provide whatever anyone wanted, it just required a short waiting period. Well, it turned out that besides being a space cover dealer, publisher, and autograph dealer, Riser was also a forger & crook. He was convicted of mail fraud after buying a group of old blank government envelopes (which he liked to use), that had planted hidden secret identifying marks, and then later selling them canceled & with astronaut autographs applied, including the deceased Gus Grissom. With forgery of astronaut autographs a hot topic now, I felt it appropriate to give a brief account of the infamous Charles Riser that so many collectors have never heard of. There was even another space dealer who was accused of murder, but that's another story... Bob McLeod |
Dr. William R. Hanson
Member Posts: 150
From: Glens Falls, NY 12801
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 11-30-2001 01:12 PM
Bob:Bill Ronson wasn't just accused of murder, he was convicted of murdering his wife and spent some years in New York State prisons. Doc |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 11-30-2001 03:02 PM
I guess the old addage of looking at the big picture is a very worthy ally here.Also, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't." With the facts that have been presented I think I am using both of those premises and adopting the, "Better safe than sorry," for the time being. Enough cliches for now....
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willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-04-2001 09:37 AM
"I have addressed the comments raised by Brown and Willis in my provious two posts."This is preposterous David, you did not address my post from November 26. Not even close. When you write things like this, it just gets me going. Why do you avoid providing a reasonable explanation for this extraordinary co-incidence? Donnis |
willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-04-2001 09:40 AM
"David has requested that any further questions not already answered by his posts thus far, be sent to him directly via e-mail. Due to his workload, he cannot promise an immediate response, but assures me that he will reply to all relevant e-mails. He is new to the message board format and finds that he would be more productive if the queries were handled in this manner."Great - I have tried twice to e-mail him privately at frohman@bellsouth.com, but both times the e-mail was undeliverable. What's up with that? Donnis |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-04-2001 09:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by willisdj:
Great - I have tried twice to e-mail him privately at frohman@bellsouth.com, but both times the e-mail was undeliverable. What's up with that?
His e-mail address is frohman@bellsouth.net
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willisdj
Member Posts: 37
From: Satsuma, AL 36572
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-04-2001 11:28 AM
"His e-mail address is frohman@bellsouth.net"Ahhh...the old '.net' ending. My mistake, so I will try again.
Donnis |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-04-2001 12:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
Where DOES all this anger come from? And what in the world are you saying in your last paragraph about me personally?
Al,Robert Pearlman has made a considerable effort to bring a bit of light, research and investigation to this matter. The authenticity question of certain Armstrong autographs has been discussed for over a year now, both in this place as in others, and under different headings (the so-called Flag Test falls into the same field, as we all know). Robert deserves merit for having undertaken real investigation, to the same degree that Jason Reese deserves recognition to have done the obvious: investigate. Robert he came pretty far, considering that this was based on both parties' good will and trust. I would just think that people - and it's not only you - who have avoided investigation over this period of time, and called other people arrogant who asked for it, should be grateful to Robert, and not meet him in an "I can do better" attitude. Robert deserves praise, not - and as a non-native English speaker, I'm not certain about the use of this term - mudracking. If anyone wants to go further in this investigation, I feel there means and ways: a batch, and a search warrant lawfully signed by a judge. You, of all people, know the procedure. Please, go for it, if you feel that is required, and if you feel you have the supporting evidence to get such a form signed. ------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Brussels, Belgium
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-04-2001 12:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Lorraine:
[B]And what about those forged Peachstate items that have since changed hands from the original owner? How will they be notified?[B]
Those who bought Haecker material from original Frohman clients have to turn to the one who sold it to them. This person can and will then have to turn to Frohman. I might not be all that knowledgeable about US law - but is there any legal liability of Mr Frohman beyond what he already offered? I don't think he's legally liable for "reputable dealers and the entire field of autograph collecting." being allegedly hurt or the World in general suffering from this or that miserable condition. Even on the general level Mr Frohman's somewhat careless and naive attitude teaches us something valuable: do your homework, be a qualified customer, rely on reliable and serious dealers, don't buy from people you don't know, and, most importantly, don't buy rare items on ebay. Or would anyone want to buy a van Gogh on the flea market, and hope it was real? ------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Brussels, Belgium
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies |
xxcygni
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 12-04-2001 12:39 PM
I'm sorry but I just can't resist the opportunity for a little laugh... quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
I feel there means and ways: a batch, and a search ...
Batch! We don't need no stinking batches! 
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Dan Lorraine
Member Posts: 373
From: Cranston, R.I.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-04-2001 01:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
I don't think he's legally liable for "reputable dealers and the entire field of autograph collecting." being allegedly hurt or the World in general suffering from this or that miserable condition.
You are very good at taking peoples words completely out of context and spinning them with your own warped twist! I did not say that he should be "legally liable" for reputable dealers and the entire field of autograph collecting. I said that situations like this hurt those reputable dealers trying to make an honest living because forged material of this scope and magnitude has a tendency to cast a black cloud over everyone! Consequently, the entire field is negatively impacted! Jurgen, in the future I would strongly recommend that you read each post several times to make sure that you fully comprehend what people are saying before you reply!Best,
Dan |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 12-04-2001 10:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
Robert deserves merit for having undertaken real investigation, to the same degree that Jason Reese deserves recognition to have done the obvious: investigate. Robert he came pretty far, considering that this was based on both parties' good will and trust.
Hmmm... are we being selective in what we're saying or did you not read the entire exchange? Because if you had I think you would have seen more than a few times I've praised Robert for his efforts. And it was nice of Jason and Steve to work together, wasn't it? Shows what happens when people have this same faith and trust you mention above and do so instead of fighting people. Constantly. quote:
I would just think that people - and it's not only you - who have avoided investigation over this period of time, and called other people arrogant who asked for it, should be grateful to Robert, and not meet him in an "I can do better" attitude.
Once more you missed the entire point in your quickness to (as always) criticize. There's no "I can do better" attitude, simply another avenue. Robert and I have discussed this offlist and he is very aware as to my motivation. Simply to clear a black eye from the hobby, in a HELPFUL manner. quote:
If anyone wants to go further in this investigation, I feel there means and ways: a batch, and a search warrant lawfully signed by a judge. You, of all people, know the procedure. Please, go for it, if you feel that is required, and if you feel you have the supporting evidence to get such a form signed.
Ummm, yes I do know the procedure, and its painfully obvious you have no clue as to the American jurisprudence system, so its rather ill advised to try and ADVISE me of it. Especially since this is not an "investigation". That would suggest something criminal in nature - which this is NOT. And my dear friend, that's not the point - certainly not my point. No I think theres so much than can be done to clear this up, favorably, and thats what I was trying to do. Al |
eurospace
Member Posts: 2610
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-08-2001 07:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by albatron:
Hmmm......are we being selective in what we're saying or did you not read the entire exchange? Because if you had I think you would have seen more than a few times I've praised Robert for his efforts.
Of course. To slap him in the face right after in suggesting that his efforts were not going not far enough and that non disclosure were a mistake and you could do better, no? quote:
And it was nice of Jason and Steve to work together, wasn't it? Show's what happens when people have this same faith and trust you mention above and do so instead of fighting people. Constantly.
Actually, they didn't work together here. On your very own list, months ago, Steve responded he would not consider it worthwhile to put the question to Mr Armstrong (as he would not respond anyway), and he learnt about the Reese letter (which was still anonymous at the time) from hearsay ("a friend has told me .."), as he equally said on your list. In my understanding - which one might share or not - such a confirmation should have been on the table before publication takes place. quote:
Once more you missed the entire point in your quickness to (as always) criticize. There's no "I can do better" attitude, simply another avenue. Robert and I have discussed this offlist and he is very aware as to my motivation. Simply to clear a black eye from the hobby, in a HELPFUL manner.
And - did Mr Frohman consider it - as you claim to have meant it - as "helpful" - and granted you access to his files? quote:
Ummm, yes I do know the procedure, and its painfully obvious you have no clue as to the American jurisprudence system, so its rather ill advised to try and ADVISE me of it. Especially since this is not an "investigation". That would suggest something criminal in nature - which this is NOT.
Forging autographs or knowingly selling fake autographs is not a criminal offence? That is indeed new to me. What's the problem then? ------------------
Jürgen P Esders
Brussels, Belgium
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Astroaddies |
albatron
Member Posts: 2732
From: Stuart, Florida
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 12-08-2001 11:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by eurospace:
Forging autographs or knowingly selling fake autographs is not a criminal offence? That is indeed new to me. What's the problem then?
As I'm a HUGE fan of Bill O'Reilly, I shall follow his lead and give you the last word which you feel is so precious (and I knew you couldn resist). So my only comments will be, youre totally mistaken on the excerpts I did not carry over, and in re: the above, this further shows your lack of fundamental knowledge of the American jurisprudence system. Should you like to engage in a debate about it, I shall decline. But please, do not continue to show your ignorance in this area. That it is or is not a crime is hinged here on 2 things as far as this discussion is concerned. (1) I do not think Mr. Frohman committed a crime as YOU are so loudly shouting and accusing here. My reasoning for this is many fold and far too lengthy (and most probably WAY above your level of understanding in ths area). (2) It is not up to me to prefer criminal charges WERE there any applicable here, which there are not. And since you do not understand how it works, but DO love to throw big words and phrases around without an understanding then please continue to embarrass yourself. Now, back to you for the last word. You have 45 seconds. Al | |
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