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Author
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Topic: Where is Ed White's Gemini IV spacesuit?
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MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 08-10-2009 02:09 AM
   
I was at the National Air and Space Museum and noticed that something seemed odd about Gemini 4. I was looking through A Field Guide to American Spacecraft and read that the original EVA suit was displayed with the capsule. Is it currently being restored or is in a shelf with Neil Armstrong's lunar suit? |
AFGAS
Member Posts: 89
From: Merritt Island, FL
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 08-10-2009 06:28 AM
I believe that this and many of the most historic suits are in a preservation facility at the NASM. Amanda Young has been curator of the spacesuits at NASM and has worked extensively on their preservation. Her new book 'Spacesuits' by Powerhouse Books (picked my copy up at the Cosmosphere) contains a list of suits in the hands of the NASM. Amanda has retired (or will be soon, she said) but her work may provide a way to safely display these suits without destroying them. |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 08-10-2009 08:32 AM
From what Amanda has told the docents in our last training on this subject, the Gemini IV suits will most likely not be put back on display, with or without the capsule, due to the condition that they are currently in. The curators are unsure if mockups, replicas or anything else will replace them in the cabin... |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 08-10-2009 06:17 PM
Geez, Amanda Young seems to be cleaning house when it comes to spacesuits. I guess no more White EVA suit and no more Armstrong lunar suit. I knew I should have gone earlier.  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-10-2009 06:44 PM
During my visit with her in 2008, Amanda Young explained the reason why both Ed White's and James McDivitt's Gemini IV suits are not on display "These are my biggest curatorial dilemmas," she explained. "Many years they were on display downtown, coming out of the [Gemini spacecraft]. The light damage, which was so bad, that [they] were sent back to David Clark and David Clark took the cover layers off and made replacement cover layers. They took off the flags, they reattached flags, meatballs and nametags." "The original cover layers I have in cold storage," shared Young. "However, they have no identifying marks on them, so I don't know which is which. That's my first dilemma." "My second dilemma is I have two suits, most historic suits, that are not historic any more. I can't take off the cover layer and reassemble it with the other cover layer because I don't have the original lacing and I am not 100 percent certain which one is which because they do not have serial numbers. A serial number on a Gemini suit was on the inside." "I would cause more damage by removing [the replacement outer layer] and trying to get the old one back on then I would by leaving it separate." "I cannot display them as suits without telling this story." "Well meaning, people did it with the best of intentions but I am left with the worst dilemma. These two suits are my big problem," Young said.  As for Armstrong's suit, Young said the plan was to rotate Armstrong's and Aldrin's suits such that while one was displayed, the other could rest. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 08-10-2009 07:33 PM
In other words, we will never know which is McDivitt's suit and which one was White's suit? Who was overseeing this procedure? I also don't understand what she means when she said they are not historic anymore. Is it because we don't know which is which? Were both McDivitt and White the exact same height? Could White have worn McDivitt's suit and vice versa? And also, the photo you posted Robert, is that the outer layer (original or replacement) she mentions? I am a huge fan of spacesuits and it baffles me that these objects (the spacesuits), that protect the ultra fragile human body from the harshest environment known to man, are decaying just a few decades after their original use. Truly boggling, to me at least. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-10-2009 08:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MrSpace86:
In other words, we will never know which is McDivitt's suit and which one was White's suit?
The suits can be distinguished. It is only the original outer layers that cannot be identified. quote:
I also don't understand what she means when she said they are not historic anymore.
A real pressure suit with a replacement outer layer is not "historic" in so much it is not as it was when flown. In this regard, "historic" can also be read as "authentic". quote:
And also, the photo you posted Robert, is that the outer layer (original or replacement) she mentions?
The photo is of McDivitt's suit with its replacement outer layer. quote:
Truly boggling, to me at least.
The suits were simply not designed with longevity as a requirement. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 08-10-2009 08:34 PM
It's all part of the question as to the point at which "restored" artifacts stop being original because so much has been replaced. I pondered that question this weekend as I stood next to a ship that was being restored by the National Park Service at Hyde Street Pier in San Francisco. Almost none of the exterior of the ship is original, and much of the interior is being replaced. What makes it the "same" ship? The same is true of the Wright 1903 Flyer in the National Air and Space Museum. Very little (if any) of the original fabric is still on the plane on display. Many of the spars have been replaced, too, if I recall correctly. Is it still the same plane that the Wright Brothers flew? In regards to a space suit, what are the essential pieces to its identity? The part that was exposed to vacuum? The inner liner next to the astronaut ("contains molecules of genuine Ed White sweat")? |
APG85
Member Posts: 306
From:
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 08-11-2009 05:09 AM
That's a shame. White's suit is so historic... the first American to perform an EVA. Too bad there isn't a way to match up stitch holes on the name tags (White is a shorter name than McDivitt... wouldn't the tag be shorter?) or something... |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1751
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 08-11-2009 06:47 AM
Send those outer layers to the FBI lab. They have enough forensic experts and equipment there to match just about anything with anything. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 08-11-2009 12:28 PM
As Robert said, longevity wasn't a requirement for the space suits. Making sure a guy could live in them safely in space for 2 weeks or so was. The suit engineers had a hard enough time devising workable suits for that purpose alone, much less considering how they would hold up in a museum over the next 40 years. On one hand, you have the inclusion of natural materials, like rubber, that aren't going to last and they knew it. On the other hand, you have the use of newer synthetic materials that no one really knew what would happen to over years, exposure to air, ultraviolet light, etc. Amanda Young has done a stellar job dealing with all of these things, so if anyone can get it all sorted out, it would be her. Unfortunately, the best method of historical preservation is locking the stuff away in a dark, temperature-controlled environment, but that doesn't make the public very happy, does it? |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 08-12-2009 12:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ilbasso:
The same is true of the Wright 1903 Flyer in the National Air and Space Museum. Very little (if any) of the original fabric is still on the plane on display. Many of the spars have been replaced, too, if I recall correctly. Is it still the same plane that the Wright Brothers flew?
The Wright Flyer's fabric has been replaced twice. As for the spars, I'm not sure how much has been replaced. Remember after the 4th flight, a gust of wind tossed the Flyer around, damaging it and afterward the Brothers placed it in crates for the trip back to Dayton. They originally planned to repair and modify it and refly it (if not for this plan, they just might have left it behind in Kitty Hawk to rot into history as they did with the 1900 and 1902 Gliders), but immediately started work on the 1904 Flyer, pretty much forgetting about the 1903, while it was still in crates in a shed behind their house. In 1913, while still crated, a huge flood hit Dayton, submerging the flyer under at 12 feet of water and mud, hence the need for one change of fabric. As one of NASM's curators (Peter Jakab?) has said the Flyer on display is 65% original, different fabric, different propellers... Of course two small pieces of the original are not part of the Flyer on display, those two being the piece of wood and fabric that was carried to the moon on Apollo 11, which both pieces are on display at NASM, on loan from the Air Force Museum. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-12-2009 03:16 PM
Sounds like a right Mickey Mouse operation! How can something like the first American EVA spacesuit be treated so badly and how can someone supposed to be in charge of their care not even be able to identify which one is McDivitt's and which one is White's. Another example of space artefacts not being given the respect and historical importance that they are due, a pet peeve of mine! Maybe people who really care about space history should be put in charge of these items. I treat my autographed photos better that, I make sure that no direct sunlight shines onto them. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-12-2009 03:38 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to criticize, Rob. You need to understand both the history involved and the unique challenges presented with both caring for and displaying large artifacts comprised of many different types of materials.The spacesuits were simply not designed to survive decades of display, nor was anyone aware at the time what their preservation would require. That the suits exist mostly intact today is to the credit of the Smithsonian and its curators, largely led by Amanda Young's own efforts and expertise. It is unfortunate that the past choices were made with regards to the Gemini IV spacesuits, but they were done with the best intentions of keeping the suits visible to the public. They recognized a problem and addressed it as best they could at the time. Now, with better knowledge, the Smithsonian is taking the steps it can to best preserve these suits for future generations to come. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-12-2009 03:54 PM
Yeah I can appreciate that the preservation of space artefacts is a new science, but that spacesuit sounds like it's been butchered. Name tags removed! Flags removed, (the first used on U.S. spacesuits). Outer layers separated from inner layers. Not even able to tell which spacesuit belonged to which astronaut! I think that last one is a real crime. I am sure that there will be some way of telling which is which but to not even make a record of which is which when doing all these alterations shows a real lack of due care for these items. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-12-2009 03:58 PM
Once again: they can differentiate the spacesuits; they know which spacesuit is McDivitt's and which spacesuit is White's.It is only the outer layer that was removed and because David Clark never marked that layer with any type of serial number, can the museum be 100% sure which went to which spacesuit. And even if they could, at this point those outer layers have suffered sun damage and could be further damaged by being reapplied to the suits. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-12-2009 04:19 PM
I don't have a problem with preservation. I do have a problem with items being taken apart and bits and pieces added here and there so that you are left asking what is original and what isn't. To me, the most important part of those spacesuits are the outer layers. These are the layers that were exposed to space, they carried the flags and name tags and they are the layers seen in the photos and films. To not know which belongs to which is particularly troubling with Ed White’s suit because it has such huge historic importance, being the first to be used in an American EVA and the first, alongside McDivitt’s, to carry the U.S. flag. Have the flags and name tags been placed back onto the outer layers of the spacesuits? Probably not because they don’t know which is which, so where are they now? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-12-2009 04:43 PM
Maybe it wasn't clear in my transcription of what Amanda Young said, but the flags, nametags and patches were attached to the new outer layers by David Clark when the replacement work was being done. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 08-12-2009 04:53 PM
I think that may be actually worse than having them in separate storage. That to me is really sad to hear. I think the need to display those items, the flags and name tags, is out weighed by the need to preserve the original suits as much as possible. They should be still attached to the original layers and if that means no one gets to see them, then so be it. I am reminded of the shirt worn by Charles I on his way to be excuted, he wore it so that people wouldn't see him shiver on a cold January day and think that he was scared, it was removed from display so that it could be better preserved. I am happier knowing that it is safe and in good condition than I would be about being able to go to the museum and being able to see it. I should just add that, that shirt is 360 years old! Now that's what I call preservation. In 360 years time who will know what is what when it comes to those Gemini IV spacesuits? We don't even know whose is whose and it's only been 44 years! |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 08-12-2009 08:58 PM
I respect Amanda Young's efforts and all that she has done. But come on, NASM should have known that keeping those suits in the lobby, in the sunlight, for years, would take a toll on them. You would think they would know better. But the real issue here is not knowing where the outer layers go. Not Amanda's fault, but once again, the carelessness.It would have been like the Cosmosphere restoring Gemini 6 and 10 and later not knowing which is which. But at least there are some people like her that actually care about the items. It just sucks that they won't be on display possibly ever again (same goes with Armstrong and Aldrin's suits being "rotated"). |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 08-12-2009 11:33 PM
I just want to add that McDivitt's hatch from Gemini 4 is at the Cradle of Avation, Long Island City New York. |
APG85
Member Posts: 306
From:
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 08-13-2009 06:00 AM
Don't start me on the Hatches and other removed components. Would they remove the cockpit door to the Spirit of St. Louis and display it in another museum? I don't think so! I don't understand why these Capsules/Command Modules are displayed as a routine, with their hatches removed to other locations... |
Matt T
Member Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001
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posted 08-14-2009 09:17 AM
Amanda Young's contribution to the preservation and likely life span of the NASM suits has been of incomparable benefit. She has been exactly the right person at the right time, recruiting very competent people with the right skills when her own expertise fell short. She's retired with the NASM suit collection in the best state it's ever been in.As for NASM's curatorship of the suits over the previous years, words do rather fail me. The signs of age deterioration to elements of the A7L suits were apparent even during the Apollo program; that almost 30 years had to pass before the matter was competently addressed is a little staggering. Pressure suits in their various forms have been around in mass-produced numbers since the early 50s, so it was hardly a hidden problem. Similarly the intentional disposal of parts of the ILC documentation that was sent specifically to NASM for the historical record is bordering on the criminal. When your only job is the preservation of historical artifacts how could it not cross your mind that it might be a poor choice to dispose of such contextual information? Hopefully these errors will remain a blot in the past, but in this new world of freedom of information might it be time for museums like NASM to make themselves more accountable? There have been promising in-roads to a limited degree of dialogue here on the cS message board already; it would be great to have an occasional curatorial update from NASM that actually invites comment - preferably about the staff's plans for the museum's holdings, rather than just 'after the event' reports. |
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