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Author
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Topic: Exhibiting NASA's retired shuttle orbiters
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Flying Dutchman
Member Posts: 161
From: Heemstede
Registered: Jan 2007
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posted 02-07-2007 03:48 PM
   
Can anyone tell me if there are plans of putting the shuttles on permanent display after retirement? I know there have been some ideas and thoughts about it, but have there been any decisions made to do so? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-07-2007 03:48 PM
All three orbiters will be on display. As to when or where, it is still being decided. - The Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum said in 2004 that they desired to someday replace Enterprise at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center's McDonnell Space Hangar with a flown orbiter.
- The Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex announced plans in July 2005 for a mock-Orbiter Processing Facility (OPF) to display an orbiter.
- Johnson Space Center mentioned expanding their Saturn V building to a become a permanent facility to house both the moon rocket and an orbiter.
- Marshall Space Flight Center, and its associated museum, the U.S. Space & Rocket Center, acquired the orbiter protective enclosure built to protect and shield an orbiter from prying eyes if it was ever forced to land outside the U.S. while carrying classified cargo, which could be an appropriate home for a retired orbiter.
- The U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio debuted a model of their newest hangar depicting an orbiter as part of the display. "We have requested a shuttle, but there have been no decisions on where the shuttles will go once they are retired," the museum told collectSPACE.
- The California State Assembly formally requested an orbiter be provided for display at a museum to be located at Palmdale Planet 42, where the orbiters were assembled.
- Oregon Congressman David Wu discussed with NASA Administrator Michael Griffin the placement of an orbiter at the Evergreen Museum, home to the Spruce Goose.
Additional museums with a stated interest in displaying an orbiter include the Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center in Hutchinson, Kansas, the San Diego Air and Space Museum in California and The Museum of Flight in Seattle, Washington. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-07-2007 07:31 AM
Orlando Sentinel Countdown is on and museums want to land shuttles for exhibits When Discovery and its crew touch down at Kennedy Space Center today, only 13 more shuttle missions remain before the fleet will be retired.America's museums can hardly wait. At least five institutions and NASA centers have been lobbying furiously over recent months for a chance to put Atlantis, Discovery or Endeavour on display when NASA pulls the program's plug in 2010. While no final decision is expected for months, NASA Administrator Michael Griffin recently told some congressional staff in Washington that he was considering leaving the shuttles and more than 1 million associated artifacts to the Smithsonian and letting officials there decide how to distribute them. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-07-2007 09:18 AM
IMHO, there should be one orbiter at KSC since the thing is so integral to the history of that place. Udvar Hazy is practically a lock for one orbiter (more then likely Discovery since it is the highest time orbiter with the most high profile missions), so that would leave the fate of Enterprise to be decided as NASM has said they consider having two orbiters to be a bit greedy. |
DavidH
Member Posts: 1217
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 11-07-2007 10:05 AM
I would add to Rob's list the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, AL, which potentially has a ready facility for displaying an orbiter indoors.------------------
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BMckay
Member Posts: 3220
From: MA, USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 11-07-2007 10:13 AM
I like this idea:Enterprise to CA - San Diego Air & Space or Edwards AFB Endeavour - KSC - In its own place like the Saturn 5 Center - part of a tour Discovery - NASM - replaces Enterprise Atlantis - JSC - Inside like the Saturn 5 This puts one on the east and west coast for people to see and at the two major NASA centers. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 11-07-2007 10:28 AM
With only three flown orbiters left, I doubt that Dryden/Edwards supporters would like to receive Enterprise from Udvar/Hazy, to think nothing of the expense involved. This all depends, of course, if one of the shuttles lands in CA and is kept there towards the end of the program-why return an orbiter to FL, only to have it sent back? With Dryden,Huntsville, JSC and Kennedy on the waiting list, it makes sense that these centers would take priority because of their close involvement in the shuttle program. Then again, access and plans for a display building/shelter factor into the decision. I would love to be a fly on the wall when that one is made in three years! |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 11-07-2007 11:23 AM
It makes more sense to send Enterprise to Edwards than to any of the other facilities. It worked its useful life there and no place else. I'm biased, but I think the Air Force Museum has a better shot at getting an orbiter than any of the other non-NASA/NASM facilities. Without the Air Force's support, there would be no shuttle program, at least as we know it. The DoD missions were a critical use of the orbiter until they were eliminated after the Challenger accident (after the booked flights were flown, of course). This is not to mention the hypersonics and lifting body research done at Wright-Patterson's labs that contributed to the shuttle. The museum is already planning for an orbiter in its proposed new hangar. A briefing I heard said that having an existing facility (or one nearing completion) was non-negotiable in contending for an orbiter. From what I understand of this project, the fund raising is well underway such that the hanger will be ready when the fleet is retired. |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 11-07-2007 02:14 PM
Bonnie Dunbar is getting us one for SEATTLE!  |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-08-2007 08:37 AM
The Orlando Sentinel followed up its article yesterday with a brief editorial throwing their endorsement to two sites as the future home to two of the shuttles: The space shuttle Discovery touched down at Kennedy Space Center Wednesday, but a battle is brewing over where the craft and its sister ships will land in 2010 when NASA ends flights.Museums across the country want a shuttle to display and there are only four -- Discovery, Atlantis, Endeavour and Enterprise, the test vehicle that never traveled into space. If the goal is to provide access to Americans and inspire interest in the space program, two sites win, hands down. |
robsouth
Member Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005
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posted 11-08-2007 11:26 AM
Enterprise - Edwards AFB Discovery - KSC Atlantis - JSC Endeavour - My back garden :-) |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-09-2007 12:06 AM
Okay, my rather fuzzy crystal ball for this sort of thing has the shuttle list as follows:Discovery: Udvar Hazy Atlantis: KSC Endeavour: JSC or USAF Museum Enterprise: Seattle Museum of Flight (perhaps perched on the back of Nasa 905) My reasoning at the time for Atlantis staying in KSC was related to the original plans to retire it at the end of 2008. As such, it would have been in a partly stripped state and potentially more difficult to transport. But if NASA sticks to the plan of just ending the program six months earlier by keeping Atlantis in the flight rotation, then it could be any orbiter remaining down there. Either Seattle Museum of Flight or Evergreen's museum would be prime candidates for Enterprise if the display is with a 747 since the 747 was born in Seattle and Evergreen is the prime NASA contractor for 747 SCA maintenance. My feeling says that JSC should also get one, but the logistics of moving it overland from Ellington field to JSC would be extremely prohibitive (lots of tree cutting) and it would take up a fair amount of real estate at JSC. So the USAF Museum might make a better choice there since it is at Wright Patterson AFB. Now if one did go to Dayton, then Atlantis should be the shuttle they send since it flew quite a few of the DoD missions (including its first flight). |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 11-09-2007 08:45 AM
Does Seattle have plans or room for an inside exhibit? The orbiters would need to be displayed inside (unlike the 747 and Air Force One in Seattle) as the orbiters have sections that are water absorbent and can't be stored outside... |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 11-09-2007 12:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by thump:
Does Seattle have plans or room for an inside exhibit? The orbiters would need to be displayed inside (unlike the 747 and Air Force One in Seattle) as the orbiters have sections that are water absorbent and can't be stored outside...
The museum has acquired more land across the street where the Concorde, #1 747, Air Force One, and other stuff is currently parked. Not sure when construction starts, but there will be another large addition across the street that is going to be built - just in time for Atlantis to arrive!  |
PowerCat
Member Posts: 193
From: Herington, KS, USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 11-09-2007 02:11 PM
I'll still put my plug in for the Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center. It's centrally located in the United States. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 11-10-2007 02:36 PM
I bet nothing will be made public until the final flight has been flown. Then I hope they sit in the OPF's until a place to display them is built then fly it off to its final home. don't let them sit outside like the Saturn's did. Are the OPF's going to be used for Orion or will they be able to keep the shuttles in them for a few years? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-10-2007 02:46 PM
A recent discussion with the person heading the transition from shuttle to Orion for the shuttle program indicated that the Constellation program was still considering whether to convert one or more of the OPFs for Orion.If I had to guess, I would say that the decisions as to where the orbiters will go will have been decided before the last flight launches but that NASA won't release the vehicles until soon after the final mission returns from space. |
Choose2Go
Member Posts: 73
From: Merritt Island, FL, USA
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 11-14-2007 04:56 PM
One thing that has been left out of this conversation that has a little relevance is the way components are swapped between shuttles. This has been done from the start of the program, borrowing from one orbiter to replace a not-ready-to-go counterpart on another. When Challenger was lost, she carried Columbia's OMS pods. (Ironically, Columbia was flying with Challengers old pods when we lost her.) That said, and amplifying Robert's previous comment, NASA will want to retain all orbiters unitl all missions are complete. Even if two of the OPFs need to be reconfigured for Orion duties, there is room in VAB Bays 2 & 4 to store a couple of birds. It actually may be some time after the last flight that we learn where the orbiter will retire to. And when I make that change in my entry on the Field Guide to American Spacecraft it will be a bittersweet day. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 11-28-2007 11:42 AM
Rumor update: I heard that the current NASM/NASA goal for the orbiters is to put one on each coast and one in the Midwest. My speculation: Given that the NASM will have one, that eliminates KSC for the East coast. JSC isn't in either of the alternatives, so it is likely out, too. The West Coast leaves Edwards and the place in Seattle. As for the Midwest, the Cosmosphere fits that bill, but so does the USAF Museum in Dayton. I suspect there will be a strong preference for keeping them in government facilities, which means Edwards and Dayton. Edwards doesn't have a building, but I don't know if they have plans. As I've posted before, the USAF Museum does have plans and is already fund-raising for its new hangar that will hold an orbiter a Titan IV and its Presidential aircraft. The USAF museum also sees a lot more visitors than does the Cosmosphere. With the DC-Edwards-Dayton trifecta, that leaves KSC and JSC and the private museums to duke it out over Enterprise. Given that it never launched, JSC would seem more likely. Anyway, that's the latest rumor with my added speculation. Any plans made now are certainly tentative and subject to change in coming years... |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-28-2007 01:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
My speculation: Given that the NASM will have one, that eliminates KSC for the East coast.
Not necessarily. NASM has Enterprise, which could feasibly stay put, while one of the space flown orbiters goes to KSC. Or KSC gets Enterprise and NASM gets a space flown orbiter. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 11-28-2007 01:33 PM
Do you really think that the NASM, having first pick of all four, will keep Enterprise? I'd be stunned. That's not to say Enterprise wouldn't go to KSC, but it seems to have less direct relevance (if that plays a part) to the launch facilities than it would to JSC. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-28-2007 02:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kr4mula:
Do you really think that the NASM, having first pick of all four, will keep Enterprise? I'd be stunned.
I don't necessarily see why they wouldn't keep Enterprise. Granted, I suspect at some point they would swap out Enterprise a space-flown orbiter at U-H. But there is no guarantee that would happen immediately. And even in that case, I still believe they would retain ownership of Enterprise...while perhaps loaning it to another location for display. |
spaceman1953
Member Posts: 953
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 11-28-2007 03:41 PM
Yeah, if I cannot have one in Walkerton at the John Glenn High School, Dayton is good for me! |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-29-2007 01:02 AM
The general feeling of people at NASM (that I have asked) concerning Enterprise is they would more then likely allow another museum to display it if they get a flown orbiter to put on display at Udvar Hazy. This is why I think the big E will probably go to some place like Seattle's museum of flight, since the Enterprise test flights were so closely tied with the 747 that carried it into the sky. My ultimate dream would be to see Enterprise on display on top of NASA 905 in a museum. But that would require a BIG display area to pull off. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2476
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-29-2007 05:37 AM
If an orbiter was put at Edwards could the general public go see it? |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 11-29-2007 10:17 AM
I would imagine so. You can presently see the largest aircraft on display, retired NB-52 '008, used as an X-plane carrier, near Edwards' main gate. Counting the planes in the AFFTC museum, I think they would need to build an expansion or use an existing hanger to display any shuttle orbiter. Remember, Edwards (the Air Force side) and Dryden (NASA) are co-located so maybe some 'sharing'
of facilities is possible. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 11-29-2007 10:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
And even in that case, I still believe they would retain ownership of Enterprise...while perhaps loaning it to another location for display.
Sorry, guess I was vague in my wording. The presumption is that NASM would get and retain ownership of the three retired orbiters and Enterprise in any scenario, then loan out whatever it doesn't display, just as the Saturn Vs are technically on loan from the Smithsonian (to use the largest example). |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2476
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-29-2007 11:48 AM
I went to the Edwards site and this is what it said about access to the museum;
"In accordance with established security procedures, Edwards Air Force Base has limited access to the AFFTC Museum to those individuals who have permission to enter the base. Specifically, the museum is open to base personnel and individuals who have the appropriate credentials to enter the installation."It looks like it is only open to those who can access the base, I would not consider that open to the public. It would be shame to hide a shuttle there. If a shuttle is going the West Coast then Palmdale would be better. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-29-2007 02:25 PM
Note that the public can request a tour of Edwards, including the museum. From their online FAQ: Are there tours of Edwards Air Force Base?Yes, there are! Edwards Air Force Base has worked hard to bring back public tours since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In June 2005, the tours returned bigger and better than ever. They include a tour of the Air Force Flight Test Center Museum, a windshield tour of the Edwards flightline and a tour of NASA Dryden Flight Research Center. It's an all-day event open to guests of all ages! For more information on our public tours, please visit the Contact Us page and select "Request a Tour." |
spacecraft guy
Member Posts: 37
From: San Francisco, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 12-07-2007 03:10 AM
NASA Ames should get Enterprise. I'm surprised that Ames hasn't been mentioned here as a candidate site. Fly her into Moffett Field, and one very large and empty Hangar is available to house her in, not to mention a wind tunnel that she would fit into. There have been plans to turn Hangar One into an aerospace museum for years, but the cost of environmental clean-up for the area will be very expensive. The SF Bay Area is the home to a NASA Center, Lucasfilm, Google and is the home port of the Starship Enterprise. Google is going to move onto the Ames Campus soon anyway, so the money and resources are here. The promise of an Orbiter just might be the catalyst to get the museum plans back on the table. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1310
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-13-2007 03:37 PM
And don't forget the USS Hornet in Alameda.The Moffett Field Historical Society museum was relocated from Hangar 1 (the one mentioned in the last post and home to Navy rigid airships in the 1930s) due to asbestos concerns. It's still worth a visit, as is the NASA Ames visitor's center. BTW, it was formerly home for the Freedom 7 II capsule, now at NASM Udvar-Hazy. |
APG85
Member Posts: 306
From:
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 01-23-2008 04:55 AM
The last version I've heard is:Discovery - To the NMUSAF, Dayton.
Atlantis - Udvar-Hazy Center, D.C.
Endeavour - Kennedy Space Center, Fl.
Enterprise - Museum of Flight, Seattle. JSC is out because there is no feasible/practical way to get an orbiter out there. Whatever happens (always subject to change), it will be interesting to see them get distributed and placed in the various museums.
One thing is for sure, they won't sit in the OPFs for long. Those are set to be torn down pretty soon after the conclusion of Shuttle operations... sadly. |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 01-23-2008 08:06 AM
I have to disagree with the above post. From talking with an unnamed person at NASM, NASM is hoping for Discovery, while KSC is hoping for Atlantis. One interesting thing that I learned in this talks is about the agreement between NASA and NASM. While it has mentioned that it is law that NASM receives fist rights to spacecraft, et al after usage, the agreement is actually based on law, and NASM gets first rights after NASA's programmatic need is fulfilled. Thus by this NASA can choose which orbiter/s they want for display, since displaying them in their visitors centers would still be considered a programmatic need/function. But one thing to keep in mind, there surely is going to be a battle for them when the programmatic need is fulfilled. With congressional support, community support and money issues coming into play. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 01-23-2008 08:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by APG85:
One thing is for sure, they won't sit in the OPFs for long. Those are set to be torn down pretty soon after the conclusion of Shuttle operations... sadly.
The earlier reports that the OPFs were to be dismantled may have been premature, per Scott Thurston, KSC's Crew Exploration Vehicle manager in the Shuttle Processing Directorate. In August 2007, he said that a decision as to their fate had not yet been made (and I haven't seen anything since to suggest that has changed). Of course, the result is the same either way: the orbiters will need new homes. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 01-23-2008 11:49 AM
Regarding Thump's speculation, the allocation that makes the least amount of sense is sending either Endeavour or Enterprise to the AF Museum. Neither of those flew any Air Force missions, so I would be highly surprised (and this is supported by what my friends over at the museum have learned from discussions NASA/NASM) if neither Discovery nor Atlantis comes to Dayton. As for which one, I hear there's still some debate. From my POV, Atlantis flew one more DoD flight, but Discovery has the edge of having flown the first one.In any case, APG85's version fits with the geographical dispersion I mentioned in an earlier post. Seattle is certainly more accessible than Edwards. I'd also bet that if JSC was seriously in the running, they'd sure find a way to get the orbiter from Ellington to the center. They'd have no problems taking down light poles or whatever to get it down Highway 3. I think they're out (unfortunately) for other reasons. |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 01-23-2008 01:16 PM
This was not speculation, on my part, but this was from a training session that was held for NASM docents, which I am one of, in which the unnamed (by me) staff person holding the training session stated that it was the wish of many in NASM that they would get Discovery, and that it was the wish of KSC to keep Atlantis. This was not an off the record discussion, but a taped (for NASM docent usage) training session. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 01-25-2008 11:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by thump:
This was not speculation, on my part, but this was from a training session that was held for NASM docents...
Sorry, I didn't mean to disparage your comments; just poor word choice on my part.Any reason for NASM's/KSC's preferences? I suppose Endeavour might be less desirable since it's newer and arguably less historic than the other orbiters and Enterprise obviously didn't go into space. I guess we'll see. I wonder at what points they will decide and announce where the orbiters will end up and which ones will go where? I could see an argument for waiting until they're retired, but logistically any host location would need years to ready a facility. |
NavySpaceFan
Member Posts: 655
From: Norfolk, VA
Registered: May 2007
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posted 01-25-2008 12:14 PM
To me, the reason NASM would want DISCOVERY, over another orbiter, is that she flew both Return to Flight missions. |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 01-25-2008 12:34 PM
From what was said, National Air and Space Museum would like Discovery, for one reason, is that it flew both Return to Flight missions, among other reasons. Kennedy Space Center would like Atlantis, for one, because of it being on the Atlantic Ocean.
Once the orbiters are retired, imagine the undertaking of what NASA is going to have to sort through. The number we where told is approximately 2,000,000 pieces/parts. After Apollo was through, NASA had everything boxed/trucked up, and the National Air and Space Museum received truckloads and train car loads. Just think, at that time the National Air and Space Museum was about the only space museum around. Now, that's not the case. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 02-01-2008 03:28 AM
With Atlantis' retirement moved off until the shuttle fleet retires, this does throw in a wild card of sorts. Reason why I speculated that KSC would keep Atlantis had to do with it having a role of providing parts for the other orbiters on an as needed basis. As such, I was thinking it might have been more difficult to put things back together for a trip on the back of a 747 if she needed to donate something big, such as say an elevon actuator or something like that.But with Atlantis flying until the end, then that does leave it up in the air again. Even if Endeavour didn't fly any missions directly tasked with DoD, she still has a military history. Afterall, part of the reason for the shuttle's basic layout was due to the DoD requirements for a vehicle with a large cross range capability so it could deploy a satellite from a Vandenberg launch and land after a single polar orbit. That capability never got used, but it directly influenced the design of the shuttle's TPS system since the vehicle had to manage its energy during a rather long entry period by spacecraft standards. The commanders and pilots have all been military (current Stratcom General Kevin Chilton was the pilot on Endeavour's first flight) and so have many of the mission specialists. The orbiter has also flown some of the best EVA based missions of the program as well. So even though she has had a short career relative to the other orbiters, it has been a storied one. |
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