posted 06-08-2010 08:23 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kr4mula:
I could imagine a museum creating a setup where you could get into the cargo bay.

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Even a walkway over an open payload bay might prove logistically-troublesome. You wouldn't want a scenario where kids could accidentally drop (or purposely throw) items into the payload bay.

posted 06-08-2010 10:34 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
As I was recently reminded, there are American Disability Act (ADA) requirements that would make such a set-up a costly proposition. Ramps (meeting tight guidelines) would likely need to replace stairs and an elevator/lift would need to be provided, increasing the amount of support structure obscuring the view of the orbiter itself.

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posted 07-09-2010 04:54 PM               

Space Center Houston launches website to support bid for a retired space shuttle

NASA will be retiring its fleet of space shuttles within the next year. Once NASA completes its last shuttle mission, these three Orbiters will be decommissioned and placed on permanent display at selected museums or science centers across the United States. The competition is stiff. We know that one will go to the National Air and Space Museum's Udvar Hazy Center thereby leaving only two vehicles for the more than 15 locations, including Space Center Houston, that are vying for an Orbiter.

Time is of the essence; your help influencing key decision makers is immediately needed. You can support Space Center Houston's acquisition initiative by visiting bringtheshuttlehome.com. Here, you can send a letter to your congressmen, senators and President Barack Obama urging them to select Space Center Houston to receive a retired Space Shuttle. Let them know, the right home for one of these orbiters is the very epicenter of human spaceflight - Houston, Texas.

posted 07-13-2010 10:54 AM               

The Tulsa Air and Space Museum is continuing its fundraising efforts in hopes of landing a retiring space shuttle.

The museum has raised nearly $100,000 since NASA announced in December 2008 that three NASA shuttles were headed for retirement.

Tulsa is one of 21 cities competing for the shuttles. One, the Discovery, has been granted to the Smithsonian Institution, already home to the Enterprise shuttle.

If the Smithsonian is given a second shuttle, the Enterprise possibly would move to another city, said Jim Bridenstine, executive director of Tulsa Air and Space Museum.

The Enterprise came to Tulsa in 1979 as a reward for the effect the city has had on space shuttles, such as building bay doors on all of the space shuttles, Bridenstine said.

The first 747 shuttle carrier aircraft was also modified at the American Airlines Maintenance Base in Tulsa.

posted 07-20-2010 08:06 AM               

Texas A&M Battalion: Museum works to get shuttle

The Brazos Valley Museum of Natural History is working to bring one of NASA’s retired space shuttles to the area. Project Director Zach Cummings started the petition to bring the shuttle to the Brazos Valley, one of two locations being considered in state.

“The Brazos Valley Museum of Natural History is involved in a campaign to bring one of the retired shuttle orbiters to the Brazos Valley,” said Deborah Cowman, executive director of the Brazos Valley Museum of Natural History. “The Museum’s dream is to display the magnificent shuttle in a new Museum of Science and History.”

posted 07-20-2010 02:49 PM               

Since then, the NASA Authorization Act of 2010 has been introduced, which includes language directing how the disposition of the orbiters should be decided.

posted 07-21-2010 04:24 PM               

Florida, Texas trying end-run for space shuttle

Florida and Texas are trying to make an end run around NASA's competitive process to decide where to give the retired space shuttles by getting Congress to weigh the decision in their favor.

After an unsuccessful legislative attempt to force NASA to give a space shuttle orbiter to the Johnson Space Center in Houston and the Kennedy Space Center near Titusville (See the Human Space Flight Capability Assurance and Enhancement Act of 2010 S. 3068/H.R. 4804), the delegation has come up with a more subtle approach -- and so far, more successful.

Tucked into the NASA reauthorization bill that Congress is now taking up is a provision which directs NASA to give "priority consideration" to a site with a historical relationship with "either the launch, flight operations, or processing of the Space Shuttle orbiters."

This very narrow direction favors the Florida and Texas sites, and ignores the other contributions that were made by individuals, organizations and communities across the nation. It was this total effort that has allowed the shuttle to fly successfully for the past three decades.

posted 07-21-2010 05:57 PM               

My vote is as follows:

• Discovery - Smithsonian at Dulles Airport
  
• Atlantis - at US Air Force Museum in Dayton
  
• Endeavour - at KSC
  
• Enterprise - west coast: Palmdale or Washington State.

posted 07-22-2010 09:17 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by KSCartist:
Atlantis - at US Air Force Museum in Dayton

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posted 07-22-2010 02:10 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by GACspaceguy:
...help me understand your rational that puts a civilian vehicle, flown by numerous different crews, ending up in an Air Force museum?

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To answer MrSpace86's comment first, I suspect it's not that people oppose the shuttle going to KSC and JSC, it's just that they prefer it to go wherever is near them. You won't find a lot of Houston or the Cape-area residents opposing those sites. Just like we usually root for our home sports teams, right?

But to get to some specifics on the question at hand...

While Air Force astronauts were certainly a significant part of the program, I don't think that's a major rationale for the National Museum of the US Air Force (NMUSAF). Some considerations:

• Air Force hypersonics and lifting body studies during the 1960s made a major contribution to the understanding of the flight envelope of the orbiter and the handling characteristics. They also very much informed the ultimate shape of the orbiter (aside from the payload bay) from those studies, done primarily through the Flight Dynamics Lab at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base (where the NMUSAF is located).

  In fact, the orbiter looks much more like those designs than it did the NASA MSC in-house proposals (as much as I love Max Faget).

• Air Force/NSA requirements for the payload bay size and cross range dictated the size of the orbiter and gave it its wings.

• Of course, the Air Force was going to have its own shuttle (more or less) and launching facility at Vandenburg prior to 51-L.

• The number of dedicated DoD missions flown made up a significant portion of the early shuttle program, before such missions were ruled out in the post-Challenger era.

• And most significantly, if the Air Force had not agreed to use and support the shuttle, it was clear to NASA that they would never get the funding to build a shuttle at all. That's why they had to get the AF to agree to abandon unmanned launch vehicles in favor of the shuttle. Yes, it's a "civilian vehicle," but realistically, no Air Force = no shuttle.

• As for the museum itself, it gets something like 1.5 million visitors per year, making it the second most visited aviation museum in the country (in the world? I can't remember exactly what they say).

• There is some logic to the geographical dispersion of the orbiters. Placing them at NASM, KSC, and JSC effectively puts them all in the southeast.

posted 07-22-2010 02:34 PM               

Now go sign the petition to help Dr. Bonnie Dunbar get one of them here.

posted 07-22-2010 06:13 PM               

House Committee supports full competition on shuttle decision

Ohio and Oregon members of a key House science panel today successfully fought off an attempt by lawmakers from Florida and Texas to restrict NASA's ability to choose the best locations for its soon-to-be-retired space shuttles.

The House Committee on Science and Technology approved an amendment offered by committee members Representatives Marcia L. Fudge and Charles A. Wilson from Ohio and David Wu of Oregon that ensures a competitive process for determining where the space shuttles will be exhibited.

The amendment replaced language that would have given priority consideration to Texas and Florida sites. NASA will continue to be responsible for evaluating a number of sites from around the country, including the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Ohio, that have expressed an interest in the shuttles.

Officials from the National Aviation Heritage Alliance in Dayton, Ohio, and the Dayton Development Coalition were pleased to see the coordinated effort made by the entire Ohio delegation in getting the amendment approved. Representative Mike Turner has provided the local leadership with the delegation on the shuttle issue and assisted Representatives Fudge and Wilson to advocate for the full and open competition for a shuttle.

John Bosch, chair of the National Aviation Heritage Alliance responded to the vote by saying, "Democracy works. With the help of the entire delegation it was possible to have the amendment pass and ensure that a decision will be made that reflects the entire contributions of the nation to the shuttle program and not just those of two states. We recognize this remains a very competitive process and that's how it should be until a final decision is made by NASA."

Jim Leftwich, President and CEO of the Dayton Development Coalition said, "Our whole Ohio Congressional delegation and the Governor, working with the Coalition, NAHA and the Air Force Museum Foundation, pulled together like a championship team to make this happen."

A full vote by the House on the bill remains. The Senate NASA bill contains a provision similar to the language removed in the House version.

posted 07-22-2010 07:17 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by GACspaceguy:
...help me understand your rational that puts a civilian vehicle, flown by numerous different crews, ending up in an Air Force museum?

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posted 08-02-2010 02:20 PM               

NASA delays deciding where retired space shuttles will be displayed

NASA waved off last month revealing where its soon-to-be-retired space shuttles will be making their final landing for public exhibit.

Delayed launch dates, coupled with congressional acts -- including bills proposing adding at least one more mission to the two remaining for the 30-year shuttle program -- resulted in the space agency postponing its selection of museums where its winged orbiters will go on display. A July announcement had been expected since January of this year, when NASA made a last call for suitors.

"They haven't established a new date," NASA spokesman Mike Curie told collectSPACE. "Because of delays to the manifest, shifting STS-133 to November and STS-134 to February, the announcement was also delayed."

posted 09-30-2010 11:35 AM               

Sec. 603. Disposition Of Orbiter Vehicles.

(a) In General- Upon the termination of the Space Shuttle program as provided in section 602, the Administrator shall decommission any remaining Space Shuttle orbiter vehicles according to established safety and historic preservation procedures prior to their designation as surplus government property. The orbiter vehicles shall be made available and located for display and maintenance through a competitive procedure established pursuant to the disposition plan developed under section 613(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Authorization Act of 2008 (42 U.S.C. 17761(a)), with priority consideration given to eligible applicants meeting all conditions of that plan which would provide for the display and maintenance of orbiters at locations with the best potential value to the public, including where the location of the orbiters can advance educational opportunities in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics disciplines, and with an historical relationship with either the launch, flight operations, or processing of the Space Shuttle orbiters or the retrieval of NASA manned space vehicles, or significant contributions to human space flight. The Smithsonian Institution, which, as of the date of enactment of this Act, houses the Space Shuttle Enterprise, shall determine any new location for the Enterprise.

(b) Display and Maintenance- The orbiter vehicles made available under subsection (a) shall be displayed and maintained through agreements and procedures established pursuant to section 613(a) of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Authorization Act of 2008 (42 U.S.C. 17761(a)).

(c) Authorization of Appropriations- There are authorized to be appropriated to NASA such sums as may be necessary to carry out this section. The amounts authorized to be appropriated by this subsection shall be in addition to any amounts authorized to be appropriated by title I, and may be requested by the President as supplemental requirements, if needed, in the appropriate fiscal years.

posted 09-30-2010 02:01 PM               

"I believe NASA has had criteria for evaluating the proposals for where shuttles would go. That specific language was already in the criteria. So I do not anticipate that would change NASA's plans."

"I don't have a specific timetable. One of the issues is when do you stop flying and so timing is driven by when the orbiters could be available and when they would get in the queue for refurbishment in order to go to museums. It certainly should happen this year."

posted 10-04-2010 12:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kr4mula:
One reading (the prevalent one, in my observation) is that now the government will foot the bill for safe-ing the orbiter for museum use.

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The $28.8M cost is the sum of two component costs: $8.3M for "Ferry" and $20.5M for "Display Preparation". NASA defines these two tasks as mandatory work to provide an Orbiter to a recipient, and NASA has determined that NASA must perform this work. Note that cost estimate of the two components have different estimating uncertainties, such that the actual cost of one component vs. the other may increase. NASA is confident, however, that the total cost to prepare and transport each vehicle will not exceed $28.8M.

(1) The $8.3M "Ferry" cost is the work to fly the Orbiter to an airport near the display site. The airport must meet specific criteria that allow landing the Shuttle Carrier Aircraft with attached Orbiter. The Orbiter will remain in Ferry Flight Configuration. The major tasks include: actual ferry of Orbiter, offload & tow to final location; positioning the orbiter on jack stands and de- servicing Hydraulic System #1; renting two NASA approved mobile Cranes, on loading/offloading the Orbiter to/from Shuttle Carrier Aircraft (SCA); shipment of Ground Support Equipment (GSE) required from and to NASA KSC; travel cost and rentals of hi-lifts, access stands , etc.; and Shuttle Carrier Aircraft and Shuttle Landing Facility costs to conduct the ferry operation.

(2) NASA is not seeking reimbursement for safing costs. Safing the Orbiter vehicles is a NASA obligation and requires putting the Orbiters in a condition in which they may be stored indefinitely at NASA KSC, away from the public.

(3) $20.5M is required for Display Preparation which includes the reinstallation of safed Orbiter vehicle systems or substitutes for Orbiter vehicle systems; provision of new special hazard notices and controls; and configuration of the vehicle to allow it to be ferried to and reside in its final destination. Tasks include set up of the Crew Module in flight configuration, installation of structural shells and skins for the previously removed Orbital Maneuvering System pods, Forward Reaction Control System, and internal cabin structural panels, as well as final closeout of the payload bay, wings and the aft compartment. "Display Preparation" is not a museum display showcasing the Orbiter. Display preparation also includes costs for NASA to configure the Orbiter for Ferry Flight per existing Space Shuttle Program ferry flight requirements; preparation and sign-off of the Ferry Flight Readiness Statement, as well as preparation and delivery of the NASA display site "kit". Also included is the ground support equipment (GSE) required to support final NASA public display site requirements, including "Data" packs (MSDS- equivalent for remaining passive hazards; Orbiter system configuration summary).

(4) There are no "fees" in addition to the Display Preparation and Ferry work as defined by NASA above.

Any work beyond NASA's definition of "Display Preparation" and "Ferry" is not considered mandatory by NASA and is not included in the $28.8M external funding requirement.

posted 10-16-2010 10:33 PM            

• Discovery (Smithsonian)
  It's the oldest orbiter. It's NASM. This one is obvious.

• Atlantis (National Museum of the U.S. Air Force)
  The museum is arguably second only to the Smithsonian in regards to their restoration and artifact-care capabilities, as well as (last I heard) museum attendance numbers. Also, the museum, like NASM, has free admission, unlike other competing museums. The USAF's contributions to the shuttle program are well-documented. Atlantis was also used on DOD flights, furthering the military connection.

• Endeavour (KSC or JSC)
  I think only one of the NASA centers is going to get a shuttle. KSC seems more logical, given the fact that it was the shuttle's home and launch site. I think KSC also gets more visitors than JSC. But, with the manned launches essentially being outsourced to Russia after the shuttle ends, I highly doubt the KSC visitor's center is going to continue to see the visitor numbers that they've had in the past since no manned launches will be taking place there for some time. KSC or JSC? Take your pick.

• Enterprise (Museum of Flight, Seattle)
  The west coast will need to be represented, and the Museum of Flight has a rich collection that a shuttle would fit nicely in.

posted 10-16-2010 11:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by cv1701:
I know the U.S. Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville wants one. Personally, I am adamantly opposed to them getting one. They already have Pathfinder, the only full stack representation of the shuttle in the world.

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posted 10-17-2010 09:38 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
The two provide different but complementary experiences.

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posted 10-18-2010 11:07 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Fezman92:
I was at the Air and Space at Dulles this weekend and I was talking to one of the staff about the Enterprise leaving, them getting Discovery. He said that this month they are going to announce who gets the Enterprise.

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Interesting if their announcement pre-dates NASA's about who is getting the orbiters because the recipient of Enterprise would obviously be out of the competition over the other three. That may also suggest that NASA has indicated to NASM who is (or at least who is not?) getting an orbiter.

posted 10-18-2010 01:04 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Fezman92:
He said that this month they are going to announce who gets the Enterprise.

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posted 10-18-2010 01:05 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by kr4mula:
I can't see NASA letting NASM make their announcement first.

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