Topic: Review of US Human Space Flight (Augustine)
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-01-2010 06:11 PM
quote:Originally posted by cspg: If Congress changes hands (it's Democrat now, right?), is there a strong bipartisan support for NASA?
Actually NASA does enjoy bipartisan support. A great example is the recent language inserted into a bill about getting congressional approval to change Constellation. It is funny that the very people who inserted the language turned around and voted against the bill. I mean they were showing unity for the Republican party that have decided to vote against everything but they knew it would pass and so they put that in there.
So just saying, yes it is bitter, but NASA will get the money in spite of that along with every other program that has jobs at stake in their district.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-01-2010 06:49 PM
I also would like to add that I know it seems in the media to our friends overseas that the Republicans are bigger supporters of NASA than the Democrats. In some ways it may be true. Liberal leaners are more likely to point to wasting money on big government projects that are not feeding the hungry in the world and it is also true that a lot of the states that have NASA facilities are more likely to elect conservative Republicans.
But I can tell you I voted for Obama and I am one of NASA's biggest supporters. Just trying to point out that your politics often does not translate to where you stand on space exploration. Still praying Obama will not let me down in his support for the 2020 moon shot though.
capoetc Member
Posts: 2337 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
posted 01-01-2010 11:56 PM
Biting my tongue, and wishing we would keep partisan politics off the thread...
cspg Member
Posts: 6347 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 01-02-2010 12:15 AM
I agree. I was just trying to figure out if we will be witnessing the same attitudes from members of Congress that affected the ISS, with its yearly "let's try to kill it" motion. Clear goals with stable funding from both parties, that's all I want.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-02-2010 01:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by cspg: I was just trying to figure out if we will be witnessing the same attitudes from members of Congress that affected the ISS, with its yearly "let's try to kill it" motion.
Yeah, that is pretty much the question I was trying to answer... It has always been our President's agenda that drives which way NASA goes and historically Congress has played along. I expect that to continue.
I remember a very close vote on whether to kill ISS (by one vote) but that was the exception to the rule.
Most of NASA's funding problems have come straight from the White House not asking Congress for enough money in the first place. I believe with all my heart that if President Bush had simply asked for the money to fund his vision for Constellation then we would not even be at the crossroads we are now, Congress would have given him the money.
By the way, I did not see anywhere in the thread where partisan politics was being discussed other than just responding to a question related to whether partisan politics would play a big role in the future of Constellation, so no tongue biting necessary.
Does anyone know if Jupiter Direct is still an option? I remember all the discussion and read a good bit about it. I even thought it was a pretty decent idea. Probably the main thing that made me like Ares better was the shear size of the Ares V was exciting. I am still hoping the Ares V is the rocket President Obama has in mind, if it is true he is ditching the Ares I ...or even bigger.
On edit: I researched my last question about Jupiter direct and found this article written yesterday, interesting read I thought.
capoetc Member
Posts: 2337 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005
posted 01-02-2010 09:09 PM
quote:Originally posted by Mercury7: I mean they were showing unity for the Republican party that have decided to vote against everything...
So you don't think this comment is partisan, huh?
I'll not say another word on the subject, but if you can't see how someone with diametrically opposed views to your own would view this as partisan, then I can say nothing to help you understand it.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-03-2010 07:05 AM
Okay, apologies because I can see how that statement could be taken as partisan. I am a long time Republican by the way, just happened to go the other way this past election, but as you noted this conversation is off-topic so just accept my apology and move on.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 50516 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-05-2010 12:15 PM
NASA Administrator Charlie Bolden spoke at the American Astronomical Society conference on Tuesday and during his comments and in response to questions he made several references to human spaceflight.
He began by saying that "all I can say" about the future direction of NASA is that we're "working closely with the Executive Office of the President," however he soon added a few more details.
"The future of human spaceflight will not be paid for out of the hide of the science budget," said Bolden, addressing an audience comprised mostly of professional astronomers. He later added, "we cannot take money from science to promote manned space flight, they are interdependent" and cited the final shuttle Hubble servicing mission, STS-125, as an example.
In reply to a question about whether U.S. astronauts would be flying on an American spacecraft before 2020, Bolden commented that it would be "very bad" if a vehicle was not flying before then and added, "I don't see this president being the president who presided over the end of the human spaceflight program."
Bolden also stressed the need for "true" international collaboration. He said that our international partners need to be "at the table" from the start.
He spoke about doing multiple "small projects" rather than "big projects" all the time as the latter are too expensive, even if spread across several nations. On this topic, Bolden mentioned he met with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton just this morning to discuss working on small projects with international, non-traditional partners.
He said he would "shy away from big projects with international collaboration" because that held the potential to "mess them up."
He touched on the need to get away from chemical rockets. "I cannot get you where you want to go" if having to rely solely on chemical rockets. He said that NASA needs to develop technologies that can be game-changers for exploration.
Bolden cited the recent astronomy night on the White House lawn and the fascination he witnessed both with the President, First Lady and their children with the telescopes, as well as the 150 Washington, DC-area students who were assembled. He choked up talking about watching kids become passionate for science.
Toward the end of his remarks, Bolden said that if at the time he was selected as an astronaut "you had told me we wouldn't be back on the Moon by now, I'd have said you were smoking dope."
(The above is based on my notes taken during the live speech, backed partially by others' tweets, but the quotes as I have cited them here should be considered to be paraphrased until a transcript of Bolden's remarks is made available.)
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 50516 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-05-2010 01:38 PM
A few summaries of Bolden's AAS speech:
posted 01-05-2010 10:43 PM
Let's assume that transportation to ISS is handed over to the private sector while NASA gets going in the exploration direction again. Has anyone ever asked what becomes of the COTS folks after ISS is shut down?
They are a business like any other, and looking for a return on investment. I don't see Bigelow's space hotel plan (if it works) generating enough flight demand to keep these companies profitable.
So Space-X gets an 8 year deal tops with NASA, but then what? Orbital space tourism without the hotel? Even so, a prohibitively expensive ticket for most...
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 50516 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-05-2010 11:00 PM
In SpaceX's case, the same Dragon cargo and crew vehicle design they are implementing for COTS is also being offered to university and commercial researchers as a standalone science platform, DragonLab. The need/desire for a low earth orbit science platform does not go away when the station does.
Plus I imagine SpaceX might have long term goals for the Moon and outward destinations as well.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-06-2010 12:26 PM
At some point there will be an international fund to collect and de-orbit space trash. We might not be there yet but it is coming eventually.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1106 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 01-07-2010 06:35 AM
I think Mr Bolden's quip about "smoking dope" is the best way to describe the stagnation in today's human spacflight programme.
If this much-vaunted announcement by Obama proves to be nothing more than hollow words or another empty gesture, some may just follow the NASA administrator's suggestion (as foolish as it would be).
spacebrane New Member
Posts: From: Registered:
posted 01-07-2010 06:02 PM
I've had this thought for awhile, so I'll toss it out for consideration (apologies if someone said this earlier).
I think the president has a golden opportunity here, to kill two birds with one stone. One of his top priorities is jobs, right? In various histories of the space program of the 1960s, I've read the moon commitment led to 400,000 jobs in the U.S.. So, the president now commits the nation to a goal of returning humans to the moon by 2020, i.e. "in this decade." (It would be even better to establish a lunar base by 2020). It provides focus, drama, inspiration, national pride (which we could use), and... JOBS! Plus, it's been nearly 50 years since Kennedy's speech calling for a lunar landing "before this decade is out." The parallels are perfect, the timing is perfect, and the opportunity is perfect. It would be a slam-dunk for all the folks in DC,too, to get behind such a bold move for space exploration, plus provide hundreds of thousands of jobs along the way.
Thoughts?
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-07-2010 06:18 PM
Sounds great to me, we will all know real soon, finally.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1106 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 01-08-2010 03:30 AM
Lately, NASA administrator Bolden has hinted that whatever Obama decides will be international. I take this to mean not only with current ISS partners, but also with China.
If true, then it could well see the realisation of Kennedy's unfulfilled dream of a joint human mission to the Moon. Whether it happens by 2020 is debatable.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-09-2010 07:05 AM
I understand the speculation but I believe in the comparison of the current China space program to the one we had in the 60's.
The sense of purpose and nationalism would make me think the idea would be very undesirable to your average Chinese citizen. I think they will accept a parking spot at the ISS but will attempt to go to the moon on there own.
cspg Member
Posts: 6347 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 01-10-2010 01:00 AM
quote:Originally posted by issman1: Lately, NASA administrator Bolden has hinted that whatever Obama decides will be international. I take this to mean not only with current ISS partners, but also with China.
And the UK would be ok with this? Hasn't China recently executed a UK citizen? You'd like to travel into space with this country? No thanks. Let them have their own space program.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1106 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 01-10-2010 03:20 AM
I would gladly ride a Shenzhou to achieve my dream of seeing the Earth from space and experiencing weightlessness.
In fact, I would hope that if Russia is unable to send further space tourists into LEO, then the Chinese will.
Human rights is close to my heart, but if one is going to drag up China's track record then what of the other spacefaring nations, Russia and the USA? Let's leave this issue for diplomats to resolve.
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-10-2010 05:09 AM
China is a super-power, and a rich one on top of that. It's much better to involve them into an international team and to have at least a partial control of that what they are doing than to alienate them and experience a kind of nasty surprise later.
It's absolutely clear no nation is rich enough to enter the phase of exploration in reasonable time alone. Why to waste the money for two or three separate Moon or Mars projects? If we want to achieve big goals then the wide international cooperation is the right way.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-10-2010 07:40 AM
I can't endorse equal partnerships with countries we have big differences with, the politicians still use the Olympics to wield their power and given the right circumstances they would hold a vital piece of space hardware hostage for political gain. When I think equal international partners I have Canada, the UK, Japan and perhaps India and a few others but Russia and China do not make the list. I can see Russia and China cooperating though, they might even let Iran join them if the oil deal was sweet enough.
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-10-2010 08:13 AM
But you already are in partnership with Russia. And it works well. Without them the ISS would become not the hostage but the useless piece of hardware in the years after the Columia disaster and from 2011 on (and who knows for how long).
And with China the economical (finanacial) point of view will prevail, sooner or later. Not to use their potential would be shortsighted.
SpaceAholic Member
Posts: 5246 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-10-2010 08:26 AM
quote:Originally posted by Lasv3: And with China the economical (finanacial) point of view will prevail, sooner or later. Not to use their potential would be shortsighted.
Very naive. China's experiment with capitalism (red capitalism) has yielded little in the way of actual reform in human rights policy, authoritarianism or altered their strategic vision of imposing a Maoist style dictatorship on the rest of the world. Perilous is how I would charactorize any engagement approach which facilitates the uni-directional exchange of space technology (from the West to China!).
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-10-2010 09:28 AM
Well, as you surely saw I did not touch the political aspect at all. Quite deliberately. It would start a never-ending arguments exchange, where everybody has the right for his opinion. I only said the economical potential of China is enormous, so let's use it for good purpose. And I hope one day NASA and/or President Obama will recognise this.
Does US agree with everything what happens in Russia (Chechenya, etc.)? Not at all. And you work with them, very closely. I am far from any kind of patronising and apologise in advance if it will look like that, but the world is neither black nor white, the right way forward is somewhere in between.
I said what I wanted to say here, I fully respect the opinions of others in this case and the future will show where and how we move.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-10-2010 03:38 PM
I think you believe the Russian/U.S. partnership in space has been a success. I am sure there are many on this board who will agree with you, however even though I advocated such a relationship in the late 80's I no longer believe it has been healthy for the U.S. space program. The partnership has been necessary to keep Russian rocket scientist employed... or more accurately not to be employed by nations that would do us harm. I also believe if Soyuz had not been an option as alternative transportation for the U.S., we would have developed a back up system long ago.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-11-2010 09:20 AM
Just to be clear... I believe the U.S. space program is already an exercise in diversity. To be American means you are Russian, German, Japanese or any number of countries from all over the world. We are Americans and by our nature we are an international partnership. Our diversity is what has made us so successful in the past. Just wanted to say that because I want it understood it is not prejudice to want to exclude the Russians or Chinese, I just do think that it is hypocritical to partner with countries you believe are against your core values.
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-11-2010 11:53 AM
I think I understand your feelings, but not sharing the same core values with US does not necessarily mean you cannot be good partners.
Diversity is everywhere, different cultures have different core values which we sometimes do not understand but we shall try because these core values will probably not change there. An example - you will never bring a ruling family from any of the Gulf states to accept the US principles of democracy. They are absolutistical monarchs for centuries and will stay so. And the partnership with US is very good.
I'm not sure whether this thread did not go too off-line. Let's leave it with the politicians, they are paid for making decisions like this.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-11-2010 03:19 PM
Yeah I guess we better start learning to work together in spite of our differences if we ever hope to be accepted into the United Federation of Planets.
cspg Member
Posts: 6347 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 01-11-2010 11:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lasv3: They are absolutistical monarchs for centuries and will stay so. And the partnership with US is very good.
Monarchies come and go... Nothing is carved into stone.
quote:I'm not sure whether this thread did not go too off-line. Let's leave it with the politicians, they are paid for making decisions like this.
But you do elect politicians! (I don't- can't vote)
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-12-2010 01:22 AM
But I never believe they will keep their promises.
Delta7 Member
Posts: 1733 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
posted 01-12-2010 06:38 AM
I say the bigger the better. If that means multiple international partners (and I believe it does out of necessity), then so be it.
Ad Astra. Warp Factor 9 Mr. Sulu!
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-12-2010 10:18 AM
quote:Originally posted by Delta7: I say the bigger the better. If that means multiple international partners (and I believe it does out of necessity), then so be it.
Gotta agree that if is a matter of going with them or not going at all without them... Bring 'em on!
I do have to give kudos because obviously the Georgian incident was a fairly big deal and as far as I can tell it had no effect on the U.S. / Russia partnership on ISS, I heard a lot of saber rattling but other than that both sides obviously decided to keep it separate. I would like to find an example of China doing the same.
Lasv3 Member
Posts: 459 From: Bratislava, Slovakia Registered: Apr 2009
posted 01-12-2010 11:28 AM
What about Taiwan?
cspg Member
Posts: 6347 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 01-13-2010 12:49 AM
Leave it to politicians!
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 50516 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
President Barack Obama will direct NASA to extend space station operations through 2020 and strive to rally global partners with a call to send astronauts on international expeditions throughout the inner solar system.
The nation's shuttle fleet will be retired after International Space Station assembly is complete, and NASA will invest in commercial means of launching cargo, and ultimately astronauts, to the outpost.
NASA's budget will get a billion-dollar bump. The development of a Saturn V-class heavy-lift rocket will become a priority, and test flights will be stepped up at Kennedy Space Center to stem anticipated job losses.
Those are among the likely outcomes when the Obama Administration delivers its 2011 budget request to Congress on Feb 1.
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-13-2010 05:56 AM
It seems like the leak was more detailed than this article, it left me wanting to fill in the blanks but I knew I couldn't. I don't think they mentioned the moon one time.
jimsz Member
Posts: 644 From: Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-13-2010 06:01 AM
President Barack Obama will direct NASA to extend space station operations through 2020
What a waste of money and resources.
...and strive to rally global partners
That means the American taxpayer will foot a large percentage of the bill and be expected to do the heavy lifting. This will be met with a collective yawn from the American people.
Will the US Space program ever be one of vision again?
Mercury7 Member
Posts: 360 From: Greenville, SC, USA Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-13-2010 06:53 AM
Jim, you could not be more wrong on that one... the waste of money would be if we did not utilize the space station longer, we are just now at a point to where real science can be performed.
Plus that is only a small piece of the plan, although I am still hoping for a lunar landing in 2020, visiting asteroids and moons of other planets is exciting stuff.
This is potentially great news.
(Is the new article from the old sources or is this new stuff? I always jump and get excited before I know...)
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 50516 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-13-2010 10:31 AM
The Florida Today article appears to be newspaper's analysis of the situation and not based on any specific "leak" or source.
jimsz Member
Posts: 644 From: Registered: Aug 2006
posted 01-13-2010 10:39 AM
quote:Originally posted by Mercury7: Jim, you could not be more wrong on that one...
We can agree to disagree!
quote:I am still hoping for a lunar landing in 2020, visiting asteroids and moons of other planets is exciting stuff.
Yes, this we agree on. But the implementation should be USA alone not like the ISS debacle of the last decade.
Topic Closed
posted 01-01-2010 06:11 PM
advertisement