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Author
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Topic: Lunar Landing Training Vehicle (LLTV) pilots
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ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 08-27-2012 01:57 PM
  
Is there a list somewhere of which astronauts (or non-astronauts) flew the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle (LLTV) or Lunar Landing Research Vehicle (LLRV)? Was it just the landing commanders and backups or did others fly as well?I would assume Neil Armstrong, Pete Conrad, Jim Lovell, Alan Shepard, David Scott, John Young, Gene Cernan, Dick Gordon, Fred Haise. |
Beau08
Member Posts: 159
From: Peoria, AZ United States
Registered: Aug 2011
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posted 08-27-2012 02:12 PM
Here is a NASA litho (MSCL-93) that states on the back that these are the astronauts that used the LLTV. (Thanks benfairfax for photo.)  |
ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 08-27-2012 02:46 PM
Thanks for the nice image. I had a bit of trouble reading the signatures, but I did not see Armstrong, Conrad or Lovell on it. Perhaps the names are those who flew the LLTV and not the LLRV or just this particular LLTV? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 53294
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 08-27-2012 03:19 PM
The astronauts who signed the litho are: - Neil Armstrong
- Eugene Cernan
- Charles Conrad
- Richard Gordon
- Fred Haise
- James Lovell
- David Scott
- Alan Shepard
- John Young
The pilots are: - Joe Algranti
- Jere Cobb
- Stuart Present
- Bud Ream
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MSS
Member Posts: 1079
From: Europe
Registered: May 2003
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posted 08-27-2012 03:40 PM
Just read at Wikipedia: Lunar Landing Research Vehicle and this link also. |
micropooz
Member Posts: 1799
From: Washington, DC, USA
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 08-27-2012 06:54 PM
More than you can imagine about the LLRV and LLTV. Includes mostly complete logs of LLRV 1 and 2 flights, and summary totals (no detailed logs though) of astronaut training flights. Good stuff! |
Henry Heatherbank
Member Posts: 329
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 08-28-2012 06:36 AM
Given that Young, Gordon and Cernan flew it, I guess it is safe to assume it was in use until some time in 1971? I am assuming Young first flew it as Apollo 13 backup CDR in 1969/70, Cernan as Apollo 14 backup CDR in 1970 and Gordon as Apollo 15 backup CDR in 1970/71.Did Young or Cernan then fly it into 1972 as prime crew CDRs in training for Apollo 16 and 17, respectively (or for that matter, did Gordon fly it whilst still in the running as candidate for Apollo 17 CDR once Apollo 18 had been axed?). Prior to this topic, I had assumed it was no longer used after 1969, once Apollo 11 and 12 were out of the way, because of safety concerns, and that NASA considered it an unnecessary risk. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3766
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 08-28-2012 06:55 AM
Scott, Young and Cernan flew it as CDR about one month prior to their respective launches. I have photos of all three in the cockpit. The backup CDRs also flew it in that timeframe. The tethered LLRF at Langley was discontinued in 1970, but the LLTV flew until November 1972. I believe Armstrong and Conrad stressed that the LLTV simulated the LM landing very accurately. |
ambrous
Member Posts: 13
From: indianapolis, in
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 10-19-2012 08:35 PM
I was watching the video "The Space Duet of Gumdrop and Spider." It appears to have footage of Jim McDivitt flying the LLTV at 5:54. I am not sure why this would be needed for flying the LM in Earth orbit. Although with the editing, he may be on some other device and not the LLTV. But, why would this NASA film even have footage of the LLTV in flight if it was not used for the flight? |
randy
Member Posts: 2622
From: West Jordan, Utah USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 10-19-2012 09:53 PM
In the book "Unconventional, Contrary and Ugly: The Lunar Landing Research Vehicle", the following pilots are also mentioned:Joseph A. Walker, NASA FRC; Donald L. Mallick, NASA FRC and Emil "Jack" Kluever, Army Pilot assigned to NASA FRC. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3766
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 10-20-2012 02:16 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ambrous:
It appears to have footage of Jim McDivitt flying the LLTV at 5:54.
I asked McDivitt about that for an article I wrote on the LLTV many years ago. He said he and Schweickart only flew the tethered LLRF at Langley, not the LLRV/LLTV.The footage of McDivitt in the film suggests he flew the LLTV, but it is actually of the parachute training that you see right after this segment. Astronauts are pushed off a wooden tower in a sort of ejection seat. The cutaway shot of a group of astronauts looking up was also filmed during this parachute training. Mixing it with actual footage of the LLTV is confusing, to say the least. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 10-20-2012 07:15 AM
I seem to recall that Bill Anders also flew it, but I don't know if his flights were related to the original high orbit LM test intended for Borman's crew, or if he was part of the astronaut crew that would evaluate the LLTV for a practical use as a landing simulation. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-21-2024 08:39 PM
From NASA SP-2004-4535: (James) Lovell, backup commander on Apollo 11, had no LLRV or LLTV training at all before Apollo 11 launched due to the crashes of LLRV No. 1 and LLTV No. 1. But it looks like Lovell actually did, based on this 2019 NASA article: Armstrong completed his training in mid-June with eight flights in LLTV-2, the only vehicle available at the time, at Ellington Air Force Base near the Manned Spacecraft Center (MSC), now the Johnson Space Center in Houston. Backup Commander Lovell flew his first flight on June 30, with additional training missions in early July.  |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-22-2024 09:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Chladek:
I seem to recall that Bill Anders also flew it...
Also from NASA SP-2004-4535, on page 195: With the exception of Anders and Borman - who made LLRV flights before mission assignments were firm - only prime and backup LM commanders flew the LLRVs or LLTVs. |
David C
Member Posts: 1460
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 02-23-2024 02:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
But it looks like Lovell actually did...
Well that's an interesting change of story. Has anyone asked Lovell? |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-23-2024 06:54 AM
Armstrong and Conrad flew the earlier LLRV. A 1972 article in MSC Roundup says that Frank Borman, William Anders, Edwin Aldrin and C. C. Williams also flew the LLRV. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-23-2024 03:16 PM
The National Archives has Lovell as the pilot of LLTV Flight 951-035-135F dated July 2, 1969. The film is not online. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3766
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 02-24-2024 05:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LM-12:
A 1972 article in MSC Roundup says that Frank Borman, William Anders, Edwin Aldrin and C. C. Williams also flew the LLRV.
I believe Borman, Anders, Aldrin and Williams 'flew' the LLRV trainer, not the actual vehicle. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 03-05-2024 01:07 PM
The Apollo 11 crew training summary shows "LLTV - Lovell - one flight" on June 30, 1969 and "LLTV - Lovell" on July 1, 1969. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-17-2024 10:13 AM
Here is some film footage of Lovell and Cernan practicing hard landings in the LLTV. The Lovell flight is dated July 2, 1969. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 3115
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 09-17-2024 12:45 PM
No wonder they could not get life insurance! Amazing. |
randyc
Member Posts: 919
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-17-2024 02:30 PM
It's my understanding that it's not correct that the Apollo astronauts were not insured. I don't know how factual all of this is, for example it mentions insurance covers for Apollo 17, but I did some research and found this: In a 1959 deal between Life magazine and the seven Mercury astronauts (arranged by the lawyer Leo De Orsay), each astronaut was paid $24,000 a year; this gave Life exclusive access to the astronauts and their families.Some of the media claimed the astronauts were "cashing in". Gene Cernan (who went on to be the commander of Apollo 17) said The original astronauts wanted to protect their lives and those of their familes. I mean, the press early on was following our kids to school. The exclusivity of the Life arrangement inhibited people from peeking over our fences and that kind of thing. The media controversy led to the contract nearly being not renewed in 1962, but the Mercury astronauts took their case to Vice President Johnson, and John Glenn spoke with President Kennedy personally. The contract was renewed (this time for $16,250 a year), although to lighten the controversy over exclusive access, in September 1962 NASA added a post-flight news conference to give all journalists a chance to speak with the astronauts. World Book signed on as well (and paid the majority of the deal, with $10,000), and both publishers also covered a $100,000 insurance deal. This insurance did unfortunately have to be used; it was paid out to the families of the astronauts who died in the Apollo 1 fire. This insurance policy lasted all the way through Apollo 10. The space travel accident insurance for Apollo 11 was formed by William Harlan (Harlan Inc.), John Smith (Harlan Insurance Service), Earl Bell (of Travelers), Morrison Deach (of Travelers), Robert Greer (of Cullen Central Bank and Trust) and C. Wardell Leisk (Austral Oil). It covered not just the space travel itself but "disease endemic to the lunar surface", so that if they, for example, died while in quarantine after the flight, they were covered. Apollo 12 and Apollo 13 were covered by Frank W. Sharp of National Bankers Life. Apollo 14 through 17 were covered by the National Space Club Scientific and Educational Foundation through Travelers Insurance ($50,000 each astronaut). So they were all insured, so why the signed envelopes, the "Insurance Covers" now coveted by collectors? Well, you might notice a wide variance in where the insurance came from; there was a time for each mission where the astronauts thought they would not be insured. The idea for the Insurance Covers came from a representative of the Houston Manned Spacecraft Center Space Club. Essentially, the astronauts would autograph some envelopes and then get them postmarked (for Apollo 11, some for the day of launch, some for the day of the moon landing). There are enough covers and enough variance in pens and inks that they were likely signed over multiple days or weeks. |
Grounded!
Member Posts: 569
From: Bennington, Vermont, USA
Registered: Feb 2011
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posted 09-17-2024 08:49 PM
So they were all insured, so why the signed envelopes, the "Insurance Covers" now coveted by collectors? I always thought that the flown and signed insurance covers were the personal property of the astronauts (and their families) to be used as a source of income in the event of a mission failure. Am I mistaken? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 53294
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 09-17-2024 09:24 PM
The signed covers were meant to augment the insurance policies to provide extra funds for their families. Why? Because why not? quote:
Originally posted by Grounded!:
I always thought that the flown...
Insurance covers were not flown. They were left on the ground in case the mission did not return. The flown covers were intended to be the like other items in the astronauts' PPKs; mementos for their family and friends. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 09-19-2024 08:26 AM
LLRV-1 crashed on May 6, 1968. What was the flight test number? |
heng44
Member Posts: 3766
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 10-09-2024 07:06 AM
I believe it was 1-281-457F. |
LM-12
Member Posts: 3998
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 10-09-2024 10:11 PM
Okay, thanks. I don't recall seeing the flight number anywhere. |
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