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Author
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Topic: Neil Armstrong photographed on the Moon
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mconway
Member Posts: 54
From: chicago, illinois
Registered: May 2002
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posted 05-17-2002 11:47 AM
   
With the exception of a reflection in Buzz Aldrin's helmet visor, is there a clear still picture of Neil Armstrong standing on the moon? |
Cliff Lentz
Member Posts: 663
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 05-17-2002 12:24 PM
For some reason, there was only one camera on Apollo 11 (not counting the stereo camera for lunar sample closeups). The reflection picture, I believe is the only image of Armstrong from that camera. However there was a movie camera mounted on the lunar module pilot's window that recorded Armstrong walking around and later joined by Aldrin for the famous photo of the two raising the flag. I believe that I have seen every photo NASA has released for Apollo 11 and that's the only way I can see a photo of Armstrong existing. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 05-17-2002 12:34 PM
I understand that there are three 70mm shots of Armstrong on the moon. - The visor reflection
- Smiling inside the lunar module after the moonwalk
- An image of his backside leaning over the MESA. (The flag is on the far left and Armstrong is on the right side of the image.)
 |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 05-17-2002 12:39 PM
That photo is AS11-40-5886. The Lunar Surface Journal has a discussion of the photo at mission time 110:31:47. |
Cliff Lentz
Member Posts: 663
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 05-17-2002 03:57 PM
The question still remains in my mind... we go all the way to the Moon, costing millions of dollars, lost lives and a joint effort the likes of which was needed to win World War II and we only take one camera? Was it really just weight restraints? |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 05-17-2002 04:34 PM
Most of the management autobiographies discuss the internal debate over whether or not to take a camera with the initial position opposing a camera to broadcast the first lunar EVA. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3587
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-13-2002 01:26 PM
The second-from-top photo on the front cover of the Apollo 11 Preliminary Science Report shows part of Armstrong's PLSS, but it hardly counts as a "proper" photo. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3587
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-15-2003 07:04 PM
In addition to the single "accidental" photo of Neil Armstrong standing beside, and in the shadow of, "Eagle", there is the first-class portrait shot taken by Buzz Aldrin inside "Eagle" after the EVA. I always thought you could learn anything you need to know about Armstrong's feelings about the landing and EVA from his weary but happy smile.  |
Fra Mauro
Member Posts: 1739
From: Bethpage, N.Y.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-16-2003 09:49 AM
I've heard that there are so few pictures of Armstrong because Aldrin did that intentionally. Just a rumor but an interesting one in light of Aldrin's wanting to go out first. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-16-2003 10:00 AM
I believe that rumor is based on a lack of understanding of what actually transpired during the mission.There was only one Hasselblad carried out onto the surface and every step — including every posed photograph — was trained for in advance. Aldrin only had the camera once, to capture panoramic photos of the landing site. The flight plan called for Armstrong to have the camera the remainder of the EVA. Armstrong isn't the only astronaut to have few photographs of himself during his mission. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 12-16-2003 10:04 AM
If I ever went into to space or anywhere historic, I would make sure there is a good picture taken of me, no matter what the timeline says or whatever I'm doing. It's all about history and future generations. |
andrewcarson
Member Posts: 349
From: Liverpool UK
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 12-16-2003 11:16 AM
Neil Armstrong while in Dublin discussed this topic for some time when reference was made to the "lack" of photos of him on the Moon.He indicated that Buzz only had the camera for a short time... the rest of the filming was done by Neil as the mission plan instructed. Neil made a comment about moving a distance away to photograph a crater he was interested in viewing and took photographs of that too... Unless he says differently in his biography (which I doubt), then Robert is right in what he is saying. Neil also stated that he was more excited about the landing than the EVA. He made a remark about good pilots being more excited and focused on a good landing than getting down and walking away from the aircraft. He didn't mention Buzz Aldrin except for joking that Buzz was more photogenic than him... he didn't seem that bothered by the lack of photographs of him. |
mensax
Member Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 12-22-2003 10:16 AM
I like to keep in mind that Neil Armstrong was one of the best photographers we had on the Moon. The photos he took were some of the best. I would hate to think of which ones we would not have today had he not had the camera when he did. |
Moonwalker1954
Member Posts: 255
From: Montreal, Canada
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 11-02-2005 07:37 PM
This past weekend in Wapakoneta, author of "First Man" James Hansen, cited in the Wapakoneta Daily News, said that Buzz might have deliberately avoided to take some pictures of Neil on the Moon.We all know that Buzz wanted badly to become the first human to step on the Moon. So, maybe that isn't far from the truth. Could it have been some kind of retaliation? Personally, that's a thought that crossed my mind in the past. What are your feelings on that? |
spacecraft films
Member Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 11-02-2005 08:09 PM
My own opinion, but I think it was just a matter of procedure and frankly taking tourist shots wasn't on the agenda. Buzz followed his photo protocol and took some interesting pictures of his tasks (such as the boot imprint, etc.). Neil had the camera most of the time, and was the better photographer in terms of spotting compositions and taking advantage of them. And there was only one camera on the surface during the EVA (not counting the "Gold" camera).Buzz was on the surface about two hours, and I think it is much easier to understand how it just didn't happen than to believe that he consciously said to himself "I'm not going to take his picture." Imagine you're out on the surface with a checklist of things to do, first guys on the moon, in hindsight it seems incredible, but I can see how it can happen given the way the procedures were written and the excitement of the experience. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3337
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 11-06-2005 09:22 PM
My own opinion is that it was not an accident. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1960
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-07-2005 05:17 PM
I'm with you, Scott. How could anyone have a camera on their chest, see the other guy traipsing all over the Moon and forget or be too busy to take a shot of that.Armstrong seemed to have plenty of time in his schedule to take what are now well known images of the other guy. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-07-2005 05:31 PM
Of course, it helped that most, if not all of the of the shots taken by Armstrong of Aldrin were not only rehearsed during training, but were called for in the flight plan.Of the lack of photographs, Aldrin later said, "My fault, perhaps, but we had never simulated this in training." |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1960
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-07-2005 09:12 PM
Right, next time you go on a trip somewhere special with somebody else and there are scads of photos of you, but none of your friend, you lay that excuse on them, right... |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-07-2005 10:13 PM
If the blame belongs with anyone, and I'm not saying it does, it's the ground support team that trained both Aldrin and Armstrong. This was the same team that didn't realize that two guys wearing the same identical outfits would need a way to be told apart. Clearly their attention wasn't on vacation snapshots or even personal glory, it was on getting key mission goals accomplished. Photographs were planned and then trained. Neil and Buzz weren't on vacation but let's use the situation you pose: you arrive at a famous landmark and your friend takes a picture of you standing before it. What's the next thing your friend does? If he's anything like the people I have traveled with, he hands you the camera and says, "Now me" (or the like). From the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal: (Public Affairs Chief Brian) Duff was under great pressure to make a selection because the world's media were desperate for the material. Both 70 mm and motion picture were laid out on light tables in long strips. 'Everyone was yelling and finally somebody said shouldn't we try to get a picture of the first man on the Moon?' They started looking for the best shot of Armstrong. Soon they were looking for any shot of Armstrong. Finally George Low or Bob Gilruth suggested that Duff call Armstrong to ask him. Duff clearly remembers the conversation with Armstrong who was sleeping in the LRL. It went like this. "Duff: 'Neil, this is Brian. When did you give the camera to Buzz?'" "Armstrong: 'I never did.'" "Duff: 'Thanks.'" (The ALSJ continues, "It is possible to explain Armstrong's answer to Duff. He didn't give the camera to Aldrin. According to the flight plan he was required to place the camera on the MESA from which Aldrin would pick it up when he was ready. Armstrong simply responded very precisely to Duff's question.")Armstrong appeared to be following the flight plan very closely, if he didn't once think to hand the camera to Buzz for a photo. And as the simplest answer is usually the right one: Why didn't Aldrin take a photo of Armstrong? Because it wasn't in the flight plan. (One could then ask, why wasn't it in the flight plan? Because no one thought of it. No one thought of taking a picture of the first man on the Moon. Hundreds of people working on the mission and no one thought of it. And yet we have to prescribe ulterior motives to Aldrin for the explanation? I just don't see it...) |
Moonwalker1954
Member Posts: 255
From: Montreal, Canada
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 11-08-2005 11:52 AM
Robert, I understand very well the fact that hundreds of people working on the mission haven't thought of it. But only one really had to think about it...Buzz! |
Frederic Janik
Member Posts: 322
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 11-08-2005 01:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ejectr:
How could anyone have a camera on their chest, see the other guy traipsing all over the Moon and forget or be too busy to take a shot of that.
Wait... when you're on the Moon? And the first there? And you only have two hours and a largely filled program on things to do while there? Oh yes, and the whole world is watching you, by the way...Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Buzz had other things to think about? The comparison to being on holidays is badly chosen; Neil and Buzz were far from being tourists up there. You might be right after all, but somehow I don't believe it and I think it's part of some problem (real, but limited problem) that has been grossly inflated by the press (always looking for a good story) over the years. |
ejectr
Member Posts: 1960
From: Killingly, CT
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-08-2005 01:25 PM
Good thing Aldrin had enough time to take a photo of his boot print in the soil, but I'm sure that was practiced and planned in the fight plan. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-08-2005 01:53 PM
The bootprint was called for on his sewn-on wrist checklist. The linked image and text below are from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal: In the text reproduced below, Neil's items are in parentheses.LMP(CDR)
Environ Fam (TV Deploy)
Deploy SWC
EVA & Envir Eval - (Bulk S) Lean/Reach/Walk
Best Pace/Start/Stop
Fast Pace/Traction/Dust
Pene-Photo Footprint
Scuff/Cohesion/Adhesion
Gen EVA Eval
Light-Up/Down/Cross Sun
Color/Contrast/Texture
Reflect/Rocks/Craters
Gen Eval/Phenomena
Panorama |
keith.wilson
Member Posts: 94
From: Isle of Gigha, Argyll, Scotland
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 11-08-2005 02:18 PM
I am the one responsible for the info Robert quoted from the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal (see above). I researched the Armstrong photo issue in the mid 80's and a letter I had published in Spaceflight magazine was the first to publicly identify that a full body Hasselblad shot of Armstrong existed.Anyway, at that time I communicated with several people associated with the Apollo 11 mission in relation to lunar surface photography. One such person was Richard (Dick) Underwood. He trained crews in photography from Mercury through 51L and developed the film returned by the astronauts. He was the first person to see a photograph of a man standing on the surface of the Moon. The film was still wet at the time! In a letter I received from him in 1986 he states: There are no photos of Armstrong taken on the surface using the 70mm Hasselblad. Aldrin simply refused to take them. It all went back to the problem that Aldrin felt that as LMP he should have been first to go to the lunar surface. There was a big 'go around'on it and quite a bit of animosity on Aldrin's part. This was clearly evident before the flight in photo training exercises and I remember telling someone that 'I bet that Aldrin won't photograph Armstrong'. He didn't. He says he forgot. When I presented Underwood with the Hasselblad photo of Armstrong he wouldn't comment.However, what is interesting is that Underwood, who worked closely with Armstrong and Aldrin in the weeks leading up to the mission, clearly felt that Aldrin would not go out of his way to photograph Armstrong. Let's just be grateful that Neil 'sneaked' into Aldrin's pan of Tranquility Base and that we have one reasonably decent still photo of the first human to set foot on the Moon. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-08-2005 03:26 PM
Thank you for sharing Underwood's comments. What I find interesting about them is that he is the first (that at least I am aware of) to suggest that after the decision of who would be first was handed down, that Aldrin took issue with the mission's planning. All other third-party accounts (again, that I have read) including Deke Slayton's and Neil Armstrong's have Aldrin accepting the situation and going back to work with no further objections. quote:
Originally posted by keith.wilson:
This was clearly evident before the flight in photo training exercises...
By this account, we are being asked to accept that NASA's photograpers had planned to have Aldrin photograph Armstrong, had them train (or at least tried to have them train) and then abandoned — and even forgot they had abandoned — the effort. Duff's surprise that he couldn't find photographs of Armstrong seems to suggest that he wasn't aware of what shots had been planned, let alone any reason why there wouldn't be any. Had Aldrin's objections been so vehement pre-flight to cause a change to the mission planning and indeed, the cuff checklists, one would think that more than just Underwood would have known. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3587
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-08-2005 06:14 PM
It might be worth pointing out that there are no photographs of the first man to reach the summit of Mount Everest. Sir Edmund Hillary was first to the summit, but the only photograph (a magnificent, iconic image) shows Sherpa Tenzing. Hillary's explanation was that Tenzing didn't know how to operate the camera and it was hardly the time to teach him. In both situations it could be argued that history would have been better served if there had been a little more forward-planning. However, I think the key point is that it tells us that for Edmund Hillary and for Neil Armstrong, achieving the goal was everything and getting photographed doing it was unimportant. We all sigh regretfully, but we aren't Hillary or Armstrong. |
keith.wilson
Member Posts: 94
From: Isle of Gigha, Argyll, Scotland
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 11-09-2005 12:14 PM
When I communicated with Dick Underwood in the mid 1980's my prime goal was simply to locate a Hasselblad image of Armstrong on the surface of the Moon. I didn't press Underwood to comment on why we had a lack of photos of the first human on the Moon -- he simply offered his views. We have to be careful not to jump to conclusions about the reasons why Aldrin did not photograph Armstrong on the surface. Underwood implies that Aldrin wouldn't photograph Armstrong as a way of 'getting back' at him for pushing the issue as to who would be first on the surface. From his letter it is clear to me that Aldrin was not perhaps his favourite person to work with. This may have been down to Aldrin being very focused on the mission at what was a very stressful time for the crew -- some of his stress may have been taken out on the trainers! It could have been down to a personality clash. Underwood simply didn't like Aldrin and when you are in that position you sometimes make negative comments about a person... whether they are true or not! Remember also that Underwood said that no Hasselblad photographs of Armstrong on the surface existed. Yet this is the person who trained the astronauts in photography, developed the film, and examined the film. His whole life at that time revolved around astronauts taking photos during missions. He knew more about lunar surface photography than anyone - yet he was still unable to identify a photo of Armstrong taken by Aldrin. If he was mistaken about the photo identification he could also be mistaken about the reasons behind the lack of Armstrong shots! So who is to blame for this situation? The NASA mission planners responsible for lunar surface operations on Apollo 11 are the ones in my mind who are mainly responsible. How could they have forgotten to include photography of the first human to set foot on another world when detailing operations on the surface? Aldrin also should take some blame. Even if a photo of Armstrong wasn't planned surely he could have used his initiative to snap one or two images when he had the camera and Armstrong was close by. He and his buddy had been together for a long time working towards this moment and yes, the astronauts were following a very tight time schedule during the EVA, but the task could have been completed in less than 30 seconds! I don't have the mission plan handy but would be interested to know if (a) every photo taken on the surface by the astronauts were 'planned' photos and (b) if the reading of the plaque and Nixon phone call were 'planned' events. Finally, it is important to remember that once all the hustle and bustle of the first lunar EVA was over Aldrin did take a photo of a smiling Neil Armstrong in the lunar module Eagle as it sat on the surface of the Moon. |
Glint
Member Posts: 1116
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 11-09-2005 12:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott:
My own opinion is that it was not an accident.
I remember thinking to myself, when the first post flight LIFE magazine spreads were coming out, "Hmmmm, looks like Aldrin does all the work — like schlepping out and putting up the ALSEP — while the commander just stands around taking snapshots." "It's great to be the king!" - Mel Brooks  |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3587
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-09-2005 04:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by keith.wilson:
...Aldrin did take a photo of a smiling Neil Armstrong in the lunar module Eagle as it sat on the surface of the Moon.
Aldrin's photograph of Neil Armstrong, tired but clearly elated after the EVA, is an absolute classic. It not only shows the first man on the Moon actually on the Moon, but shows his face and hints at his feelings and emotions in a way which no photograph of a man in a mirror-finish spacesuit helmet could ever show. |
quantumleap
Member Posts: 46
From: Newmarket, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2005
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posted 11-10-2005 11:52 AM
Agree 100% with that. It is my favourite Apollo 11 picture as it tells a story which no other does. That one, along with the "footprint" picture and Eagle shown on its way up with Earthrise in the background make my list before the classic Aldrin on the moon and coming down the LM ladder ones. |
KenDavis
Member Posts: 207
From: W.Sussex United Kingdom
Registered: May 2003
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posted 06-26-2007 02:07 PM
The later Apollos did three lunar EVAs and spend around seven hours out on the surface each time — and every moment of that was planned and it was still a constant race to complete the tasks on time. Now imagine the two hours that Armstrong and Aldrin had. It may seem strange to us but I imagine they did not have a 'second' to think of anything that hadn't been planned and written down beforehand. Armstrong had the camera and took the photos he been trained to take. If there was any omission it was on the part of the mission planners who should have thought to schedule some photos of Armstrong. Neil and Buzz cannot be critisied for this. |
Blackarrow
Member Posts: 3587
From: Belfast, United Kingdom
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-27-2007 05:43 PM
The fault lay with the mission planners. Apart from the collection of rock samples, no other scientific task on that first landing could have compared in historical significance with a good quality colour image of the first man on the Moon. In a hundred, or a thousand years it would have been that (sadly nonexisting) image which history would have remembered. But sometimes you have to step back a bit to see the historical perspective. The planners got everything else right, so we shouldn't be too critical. |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 06-28-2007 11:52 AM
It a loss to future generations that we don't have an iconic picture (not a blurry movie still) of man's first step onto another world. While other "firsts" were of course less documented (or not at all), the significance of most of those will fade over the centuries, but I suspect our first steps off this planet will always be a milestone in human history, regardless of how routine spaceflight becomes. However modest Armstrong wants to be and however important we want to make teamwork and "they landed together," you can't change the fact that it was Armstrong's foot that first hit the soil. Is it that important to have a picture of that? Let me ask: if that picture existed (or even a Neil pic comparable to the Buzz one), would it be the defining shot of the Apollo program and on all the lists of the most important photos ever taken (like the Buzz shot currently is)? If you answer "yes" (as I would), then you have your answer as to its importance. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-28-2007 12:01 PM
I think that would depend largely on the composition of the shot. The "visor" shot to which you cite is iconic less for who was inside the spacesuit than for what it represents: man on the Moon. Would it be any more iconic a shot were it Armstrong inside? I don't know, but I tend to think not. Would a lesser shot of Armstrong take first pick over the visor shot? Again, I don't know, but I don't believe so. I think the visor shot was special because it captured both men on the Moon and is clear in its message. |
clifford
Member Posts: 233
From: Maplewood, nj, 07040
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-28-2007 06:45 PM
I agree Robert, sometimes the composition is the thing. As an example the most famous photo of the first trip to the moon (Apollo 8) is the Earthrise, not an astronaut or even the moon, but home. In that case a single photo summarized the whole mission. For me there are many more descriptive photos from later missions but the "visor" shot just sums up the whole thing for me. And no, it does not matter which Apollo 11 astronaut was in the suit. In fact more credit to Armstrong for capturing such an iconic image. |
Cliff Lentz
Member Posts: 663
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 06-29-2007 12:03 PM
On Apollo 11, as I remember, a long period of time was spent trying to erect the American flag in the lunar soil. It's placement, so close to the lunar module that it violently shook as the LM ascended, has been a point of contention. I believe that NASA planners desperately wanted the flag and the LM in that first TV image. There was also a presidential phone call that occupied some time. I believe that the Armstrong photo omission was an accident that was brought about by these events. Apollo 11 also had the handheld stereo camera (which I believe never flew again) that occupied their attention as well. Both astronauts have mentioned that they would have liked to explore more of Tranquility Base, but time prevented that. As far as having only one camera, I think that was because of weight restrictions. Not much was known about landing (and taking off) and Apollo 11 was really a test flight. Apollo 12 had two cameras and then came the realization that one could not tell which astronaut was which so the red stripes were added on the commander's suit. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3288
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-01-2007 06:06 AM
It doesn't look like that anyone has posted the known photos that Aldrin did take on the lunar surface with Armstrong in them. None of them clear, posed shots, but there were some that Armstrong, or parts of him, happened to be in. There are, to my knowledge, these ones: Here's an enhanced / cropped version of the best of them and another enhanced one of one where Armstrong was in shadow.There's also another shot of Armstrong in the LM after the moonwalk, while they are still landed. |
leslie
Member Posts: 231
From: Surrey, England
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 07-02-2007 10:50 AM
Does it really matter who took which photos during Apollo 11? The important fact remains that we are fortunate that powerful images remain for future generations to look at.In 1969, the "grainy" images were a WOW factor for the entire planet! Forty years on we can comment on image quality and speculate about the mission politics but one fact remains which is the most important; two amazing guys landed on the moon and we have a visual record. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 50334
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-07-2007 09:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moonwalker1954:
...author of "First Man" James Hansen,
In reference to "First Man" (Hansen) here are Armstrong's own thoughts on the issue: I don't think Buzz had any reason to take my picture, and it never occurred to me that he should. I have always said that Buzz was the far more photogenic of the crew...We always had a plan for when were going to transfer the camera. He was going to take some pictures, and I was going to take some. And I think roughly we did it approximately like the plan called for in terms of the camera transfer. I had the camera for a large fraction of the time and I had more assigned photographic responsibilities, but Buzz did have the camera some of the time and did take pictures. It was in the flight plan. "First Man" goes on to describe other photographs taken by Aldrin and it puts the "controversy" to rest by the following on page 509: To be fair, all of the photos Buzz took were planned photo tasks of his; taking a picture of Neil was not part of them. |
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