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Author Topic:   Vision requirements for astronauts
mdmyer
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Posts: 900
From: Humboldt KS USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 04-17-2007 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mdmyer   Click Here to Email mdmyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I often mention my daughter Miranda in my posts. Her goal and dream is to attend the Air Force Academy and then to become a fighter pilot. Then she wants to join NASA and to fly in space.

Last night we attended a local high school softball game, the Humboldt Lady Cubs are 10 and 0. There was a U.S. Army recruiter at the game. As I walked past him he asked me about a camera lens I had on my camera, I had taken a 400mm F5 lens to the game to shoot some photos. We talked about the lens then the game. I asked if he had kids playing and he said no, he was just there looking for recruits. He asked if I had kids playing and I told him my kids did not play. Then he asked me about Miranda and her goals. I told him that she wanted to attend the Air Force Academy and to learn to fly jets. He asked if she wore glasses or contacts. I said she did. Then he looked at her and told her to forget it that she would never make it in the Air Force. Needless to say she was upset. By upset I don't mean she was crying, I mean she was mad!

After the game she wrote this to a friend:

quote:
I went to the ball game in Yates Center. There was a army recruitment officer there. I told him I was Air Force all the way and he said that I couldn't do it just because of me wearing contacts. I knew someone somewhere was going to tell me I can't do it, but I was not expecting if from a recruitment officer.

Mike Myer
Humboldt KS

garymilgrom
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Posts: 1966
From: Atlanta, GA
Registered: Feb 2007

posted 04-17-2007 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for garymilgrom   Click Here to Email garymilgrom     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Remember you have to be in perfect health to get into the program. NPR had a piece recently about Shuttle astronauts - there are over 100 of them and there are only a finite number of seats left so some will have been in the program a decade with only a chance at one flight (and perhaps not even that). These people may fall into the category you are looking for.

Regarding your daughter, I believe glasses per se do not disqualify pilots or astronauts. They need to have vision correctable to 20/20 or similar. And even if she cannot pilot the vehicle, there are many opportunities for similar careers; like Mission Specialist on the Shuttle.

spacecraft films
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Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 04-17-2007 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spacecraft films   Click Here to Email spacecraft films     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If this is a concern, see an opthamologist about lasik surgery. When her eyes have stopped growing they should be able to correct the vision, usually to 20/20 or better.

That shouldn't be an issue these days. I don't know about the Air Force policy, but the FAA policy is:

"According to the Federal Air Surgeon's Medical Bulletin, Fall 1998, the FAA accepts LASIK for its pilots, as long as the FAA examining doctor finds "the post-operative condition has stabilized," pilots have "no significant adverse effects or complications" and their eyes meet "the appropriate vision standards" one to six months post-operatively."

My doc advised me a couple of years ago to wait for another couple of years when the technology improves even further and he can even fix my eyes, which were excellent until around 38 or 40.

My wife had terrible eyesight and the surgery brought her to 20/20... no more glasses... no more contacts. We'll certainly have my oldest daughter's eyes done as soon as she's old enough (she's the only one of our children with poor eyesight).

Mark

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-17-2007 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spacecraft films:
If this is a concern, see an opthamologist about lasik surgery. When her eyes have stopped growing they should be able to correct the vision, usually to 20/20 or better.
From NASA's astronaut selection FAQ:
quote:
Is surgery to improve visual acuity allowed?

No, any type of surgery to improve visual acuity, e.g. radial keratotomy, photorefractive keratectomy, LASIK, etc., will disqualify you for the Astronaut Candidate Program.


spacecraft films
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Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 04-17-2007 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for spacecraft films   Click Here to Email spacecraft films     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Robert,

I'm really surprised at that, given that the FAA was accepting it almost 10 years ago. I wonder that this might change at some point.

Thanks for posting that... you learn something new every day.

Mark

Robert Pearlman
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From: Houston, TX
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posted 04-17-2007 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lacking a good explanation from NASA, the Canadian Space Agency provides some background as to why LASIK (in particular) and other forms of optometric surgery is not accepted at present:
quote:
Currently, there is not enough research to fully understand how the flap created in surgery will behave in microgravity or during physically demanding astronaut training. Other reasons for turning away candidates include: long term results are not well understood; correction is often not permanent; problems with glare, especially at night, have been reported; and a chance of scarring or swelling of the cornea. At this time it is uncertain whether this procedure will be accepted in astronaut candidates in the future.

KSCartist
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Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005

posted 04-17-2007 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike

You said it was an Army recruiter. I'll bet if Miranda said she wanted to be a helicopter pilot, he would have been more supportive.

Tim

mdmyer
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Posts: 900
From: Humboldt KS USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 04-17-2007 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mdmyer   Click Here to Email mdmyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No doubt. He said his regular assignment was as a helicopter mechanic. He was telling her the Army has more "fixed wing" aircraft than the Air Force. I think they consider some of their helicopters to be fixed wing. He also said the Army had more boats than the Navy. I asked if they were river crossing or landing boats and he said they were.

I don't think I will let her read this thread. I thought she might be able to get in the Air Force with the surgery but it looks like her hopes would be dashed by NASA. Maybe in time they would change their policy.

Mike

Robert Pearlman
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Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999

posted 04-17-2007 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Robert Pearlman   Click Here to Email Robert Pearlman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mdmyer:
I thought she might be able to get in the Air Force with the surgery but it looks like her hopes would be dashed by NASA. Maybe in time they would change their policy.
Unfortunately, according to the Air Force's website, they too would disqualify her from being a pilot if she had surgery:
quote:
Procedures to change refraction disqualify you for all military programs. This includes radial keratotomy (RK); photorefractive keratectomy (PRK); laser in-situ keratomileusis (LASIK); similar surgical/nonsurgical alteration to the cornea (e.g. orthokeratology); and any other experimental operations. Waivers may be considered for both PRK and LASIK, however, the waiver applicant must meet very strict preoperative and postoperative criteria. A waiver will not be considered until 12 months following the procedure to ensure full healing. LASIK is permanently disqualifying for any flying or special duty career field. Refractive errors in spherical equivalent of greater than +/-8.00 diopters are disqualifying and greater than +/-10 are not waiverable.
However, depending on how severe her prescription, she may be able to qualify with glasses or contact lenses:
quote:
Qualification for potential flying duties requires uncorrected distant visual acuity of no worse than 20/50 (pilot) and 20/200 (navigator), correctable to 20/20 in each eye. Uncorrected near visual acuity of no worse than 20/20 (pilot) and 20/40 (navigator) must be correctable to 20/20 in each eye.

KSCartist
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Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005

posted 04-17-2007 06:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KSCartist   Click Here to Email KSCartist     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike -

Don't let her give up. Who knows what medical advances will take place to allow her eyesite to be improved. She should stay on track with her education and keep trying.

(Maybe I should ask for her autograph now?)

I wish her the best.

Tim

ea757grrl
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Posts: 729
From: South Carolina
Registered: Jul 2006

posted 04-17-2007 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ea757grrl   Click Here to Email ea757grrl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The only way Miranda can lose is if she gives up on her dream. History is full of people who were successful because they kept plugging ahead even though so many people told them "there's no way you'll be able to do that."

Please tell her not to give up -- there's an awful lot of us who wanna see her fly in space, and we can say 'we knew her when!'

jodie

Gordon Reade
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Posts: 334
From: USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 05-02-2007 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gordon Reade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That Army guy sounds like a real SOB. But I'm reminded of a flight student I once worked with. I'll call him "John". John was a fine young man who had only one ambition in life and that was to fly fighters for the Air Force. But there was a problem. John had ADD and boy did he ever have it bad. Even during landings his mind sometimes wondered off and when he 'woke up' he had no idea that he had been gone.

As gently as I could I told John that although he was a really great guy he might not be what the Air Force was looking for. John explained that he had a plan. His dad, who was footing the bill for his flying, told John that he didn't care what it cost or how long it took form him to get his private pilot's licence. If it took 300 hours that was just fine with dad. John would then enter Air Force flight training but he wouldn't tell them that he was already a pilot and boy would he ever impress them with his ability to learn. Or so John thought.

I'm dyslexic and so you can bet I was sympathetic but even given 300 hours I didn't think I could make John a pilot. He just didn't have it. And there was something else he didn't have. He didn't have a back up plan. John couldn't see himself as anything other than an Air Force fighter pilot. Nothing else interested him.

What America needs is a million young people who are all going to contribute to the advancement of spaceflight and science. A million young people who are all going to be astronauts isn't going to do us much good.

kimmern123
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Posts: 83
From: Norway
Registered: Dec 2006

posted 05-03-2007 07:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kimmern123   Click Here to Email kimmern123     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
People often ask me if I want to be an astronaut, and I always have a standard answer: I want to work with something related to space and if things play out right and the possibility rises then I wouldn't mind becoming an astronaut. But first and foremost I want to contribute to space exploration.

I agree with the statement that what is needed is people contributing. Everyone can play a part in space exploration. The only thing that matters is to find a part you enjoy.

robsouth
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Posts: 769
From: West Midlands, UK
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 05-04-2007 06:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for robsouth     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Didn't John Young fly aboard STS-1 with glasses? I think they had to make special fixtures for them when he had his helmet on.

Cliff Lentz
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Posts: 655
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-21-2008 04:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cliff Lentz   Click Here to Email Cliff Lentz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The local radio station has been running ads for the Lasiks eye procedure claiming that the company has the new technology that was just approved by NASA. Up til now I had heard that there wasn't enough positive evidence with pilots to allow this procedure. Has anyone heard anything new about this?

Cliff

oldpara
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posted 01-22-2008 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for oldpara   Click Here to Email oldpara     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having a dream and setting a goal are entirely different things. To dream of doing something is just wishful thinking. Setting a goal to do something requires a plan of action and the accomplishment of certain tasks along the way.

Anyone seeking admission to any of the service academies should find out all the requirements before setting that as a goal. In 1965 I was trying for the US Air Force Academy. I knew I needed very good grades, lots of extra curricular activities (in school and the community), and participation on an athletic team. I sailed through the first round of interviews and was told to report for my physical at Homestead AFB. Shortly afterwards, I received my rejection letter. My sitting height was to tall!! Back then the main purpose of the USAFA was to crank out fighter pilots and I couldn't fit in the cockpit.

Mike, let Miranda read this thread. Sometimes a persons heart and desire are not enough to overcome certain obstacles. There are times when the bodies we were born with just don't fit the needs of specific jobs. To be in one of the military Honor Guards, you have to be tall. To be a Mercury astronaut, you had to be short. Once Miranda has all the requirements for a position that she wants to fill, then she can go about accomplishing the tasks to achieve that goal.

Bill

PS I figured that since I couldn't fly the planes, I'd jump out of them while in flight. I ended up spending 20 years in the Army, with 17 of those years as a paratrooper. And yes, we do have more airplanes than the AF (artillery spotters, recon aircraft, etc.) and more BOATS than the Navy. (Not ships, boats...)

mark plas
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Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 01-22-2008 10:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mark plas   Click Here to Email mark plas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See never give up on your dreams!

From the NASA site:

quote:
Is surgery to improve visual acuity allowed?

As of September 2007, the refractive surgical procedures of the eye, PRK and LASIK, are now allowed, providing at least 1 year has passed since the date of the procedure with no permanent adverse after effects. For those applicants under final consideration, an operative report on the surgical procedure will be requested.


Jay Chladek
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From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 01-24-2008 01:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jay Chladek   Click Here to Email Jay Chladek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay, so maybe she can't make it into pilot training, but she can still go to the Air Force Academy if her grades are good enough. There are more paths to astronaut training then being the guy in the front seat with two hands on the stick and throttle and two feet on the rudder petals.

First of all, there are flight officer positions in the Air Force that don't require perfect vision, just vision that is correctable to 20/20 with glasses or contacts. Mike Mullane was a prime example as he was a flight test engineer when he got selected as a Mission Specialist. Plenty of the members in the current astronaut corps (military and civilian) also wear contacts in orbit.

It used to be in the Navy that if one joined that service to become a pilot with 20/20 vision and it decreased during training, they would let them remain a fighter pilot as by that time, the Navy had already invested millions of Uncle Sam's tax dollars in the candidate and they didn't want it to go to waste. I believe it is the same in the Air Force now as well.

In John Young's case, he was Navy and needed vision correction for far sighted vision problems due to age. His experience made him invaluable in the cockpit, but his vision was sure as heck close to perfect when he joined up in class 2 about 20 years before STS-1. Some SR-71 pilots in that program wore glasses in their pressure suits from way back in the early days of the program, so the early shuttle suits (which were slightly modified, off the shelf SR-71 suits) were capable of handling the use of glasses without any problems.

Mike, I think in your daughter's case she might want to evaluate her options fully if being an astronaut is really her ultimate career goal. It worked for many other women before her in the civilian and military ranks anyway. Okay, so maybe she can't become a fighter pilot, but she can still pick a path that ultimately ends up as astronaut candidate material. I would also look at the Navy as a possible option as well since it seems like a lot more individuals from that branch of service tend to get selected who aren't pilots.

The biggest step will be having good fundimentals in math and science classes, as these will provide the basis for whatever career she chooses. Engineering and Medical backgrounds will potentially give her and edge (how about going to medical school and joining the Air Force as a Flight Surgeon?). One doesn't need to be a pilot either to get into flight testing and even some helicopter pilots have become astronauts (possibly a skill to consider if we go back to the Moon or on to Mars).

The biggest thing about the current crop of Astronaut candidates these days is that they aren't narrow focused in their talents. Those with a rather wide talent base tend to be the best candidates as NASA really wants to get a great return on their investment. Plus, these days the Mission Specialists tend to get the really cool assignments from performing EVAs to science missions in orbit. Yes it is fun to pilot and potentially command a spacecraft from the front, but that isn't the only job to do in space when somebody gets there. Why spend the time driving the ship when one can sit in back and let somebody else do the driving?

I wish her luck. If her health is otherwise good, then less then perfect vision shouldn't be a hurdle. She just needs to look at her options more is all. And yes, it is very possible to get a job in the space program without becoming an astronaut. When there, she can still submit the applications every two years. Clay Anderson was turned down I believe 19 times before he finally got selected as part of the 1998 class and he flew in space this past year. If that isn't determination, I don't know what is.

Lou Chinal
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Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007

posted 01-24-2008 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lou Chinal   Click Here to Email Lou Chinal     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We never know the path that life follows. I never thought anyone would come back to flight status after a heart problem, but Deke Slayton did it. Barbera Morgan waited 22 years for a flight. Tell her to hang in there, I wish her the best of luck.

-Lou

kr4mula
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Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 01-25-2008 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kr4mula   Click Here to Email kr4mula     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Having known some of the people involved in shuttle astronaut selection, I can tell you what they told me. Their advice to everyone is not to establish "astronaut" as your career path. Most people never get to be astronauts (as my desk plaque says), so you don't want to spend years doing something you might not otherwise do to achieve that single goal. They say to find a field that you love and can excel in and if it happens to coincide with what the astronaut office needs, then great. They want people who are the best scientists or engineers or flight docs or pilots first. becoming an astronaut as a goal is great, but don't structure your life around it. They tend to question those people more than the ones who are there because the space program offers unique opportunities in their field. Afterall, the reality of being an astronaut is a lot different than people think, so if you're not into your work, the dreamy myth isn't going to keep you there very long.

So if being a pilot is what your daughter always wanted to do and she'd be happy flying heavies for the Air Force (lesser vision req's than fighter pilots) and then maybe for an airline, then great, go for it. I (with my terrible eyes) would be envious! If the Academy is only a means to that particular end, then it may not be the way to go for her. There are lots of other career options that can make her eligible for the astronaut program, just make sure she loves whatever she picks! Good advice to us all...

Cheers,

Kevin

NAAmodel#240
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Posts: 312
From: Boston, Mass.
Registered: Jun 2005

posted 01-29-2008 08:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for NAAmodel#240   Click Here to Email NAAmodel#240     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike,

I am an Air Force Flight Nurse. I will have laser correction surgery later this year. Up until recently (May 2007) any eye procedure that created a flap (LASIK) disqualified a pilot. Now the Navy and NASA have relaxed their policies and finally the Air Force has as well. There are lots of people your daughter will encounter that will explain why she can't become an astronaut. Ignore them all. AIM HIGH!

mdmyer
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Posts: 900
From: Humboldt KS USA
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 01-29-2008 08:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mdmyer   Click Here to Email mdmyer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the great replies and updates.

As I mentioned earlier we met that Army recruiter at a soft ball game. Just yesterday we were watching a high light slide show of that season and when the photos taken that night came up Miranda remember the game as the one the mean recruiter was at.

I think I will let her read this thread afterall.

Mike Myer

tegwilym
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Posts: 2331
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-29-2008 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tegwilym   Click Here to Email tegwilym     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had Lasik done about 3 years ago. Best $2200 I've ever spent!

I used to have about 20/400 vision without correction and glasses that made my eyes look tiny.

Although not 100% perfect (my left eye seems slightly weaker than my right) I'm doing just fine without glasses or contact lenses. The hardest part about doing it is trying to quit grabbing for your face to remove your glasses before getting in the shower in the morning. Took me a while to get over that.

I did fly and instruct before Lasik, but had "Must wear corrective lenses" on my flight medical. That isn't there anymore either.

Tom

NavySpaceFan
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Posts: 655
From: Norfolk, VA
Registered: May 2007

posted 01-29-2008 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for NavySpaceFan   Click Here to Email NavySpaceFan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike, has your daughter thought about Annapolis? When applying to a service academy, you should apply to all three, just to hedge your bets. A small number of graduates per class can apply for commissions in other services. However, if your daughter wants to fly, try the Navy (more planes, carrier landings, test pilot school in Maryland vice Edwards AFB). Also, there are more oprotunities to serve in other warfare communities (surface, diver, etc.) that can lead to astronaut selection (CDR Mario Runco was a SWO, CAPT Heidi Piper is a diver).

All times are CT (US)

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