posted 10-28-2007 07:53 PM               

I said, loud enough for the group to hear that their guide was lying, and that they died trying to land in bad weather and he was insulting the memories of two fine aviators by even insinuating that they died screwing around with their aircraft.

posted 10-29-2007 09:53 AM               

Stafford said See simply wasn't stabilized on his instrument approach and "got behind" the approach resulting in a go around. Instead of flying the published missed approach procedure, he (See) tried to stay under the weather and in the process stalled the T-38 which crashed into a parking lot near the facility they were to visit.

posted 10-30-2007 08:06 PM               

I have hardly ever read anything in praise of poor Elliot See — in fact quite the opposite when the guy's no longer with us to defend his name. His wife and daughters have had to live since then with throwaway criticism of him, especially made in books by some of his fellow astronauts, most of whom don't even know how to spell his first name correctly, let alone find a good word for him.

Let us not forget that he was selected in the second NASA astronaut group, and nobody — nobody — would have been selected in that group who was not a superb, cool and talented pilot (Armstrong, Stafford, Lovell, White, McDivitt, Young, Borman, Conrad — need I say more?).

posted 10-31-2007 03:08 AM               

Bassett and See in the control room...

And here's Bassett suited-up (without the pipe)...

posted 11-02-2007 09:29 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
Pilot error may have been a contributing factor in that terrible crash, but there was also a lot of ground control confusion amid some particularly filthy weather.

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Something of great significance that is never mentioned: shortly after this accident "circling approaches" were no longer allowed. They had been considered dangerous for many years but were still legal approaches. In this type of approach the aircraft makes an approach to the landing runway, but overflies it followed by a left or right turn to set up a visual pattern to land. This circle is performed at an altitude as low as 400 feet above the ground. An extremely short-radius turn is required to keep the runway in sight.

Weather (i.e. ceiling and visibility) are not necessarily reported at the touchdown end of the runway for this type of approach. Visibility can vary significantly during the circling maneuver during rain showers.

According to the accident report heavy rain showers obscured the touchdown end of the runway AND the McDonnell building with visibility FAR lower than legally required to safely execute a circling approach.

Also, as Colin mentions the weather was much worse than was reported to the astronauts. They were perfectly justified in executing this type of approach.

See and Bassett most likely lost sight of the runway as they were in the process of completing the final turn to align with the runway. When they lost visual contact with the runway, See executed a Missed Approach. This is exactly what you are supposed to do. The accident report stated that they did nothing contrary to FAA regulations and procedure.

They were at a low altitude and in a turn when they lost sight of the runway. At this point how do you complete the turn and be certain that you are exactly aligned with the runway? At the same time you are raising the nose and adding power to execute a go-around.

If you are aligned with the runway and the aircraft tracks the center of the runway (remember, you cannot actually see the runway, and your instruments cannot tell you where the runway is...) then you are guaranteed to have altitude clearance above any terrain, buildings, etc.

Unsurprisingly, See and Bassett were slightly to the side of the runway, but they had no way of knowing this. The McDonnell building is quite tall and is very close to the runway. In 1966, McDonnell would not have been allowed to construct such a tall building that close to the runway. But, the building had been there for years so it was allowed.

Assuming See was actually considered an old lady pilot before this accident, I have wondered for years whether he was aware of this opinion. If so, could he have been trying to show his peers that he wasn't a sub par pilot by continuing this approach?

According to Frank Borman, he himself took a lot of abuse from his fellow astronauts for taking the longer over land route from Houston to the Cape, rather than overflying the Gulf. Borman's reasoning was simply that it was safer. Why risk the airplane and crew when it wasn't necessary?

Obviously, the commander of the first flight to the moon was no "old lady," yet he only flew "like a fighter pilot" when he was a fighter pilot. By the way, Borman states that he held Elliot See in high regard as a pilot and astronaut. Even according to Borman, Borman is not one to pull any punches, so this is most likely his actual opinion. Perhaps Borman, unlike others, was judging See's piloting "style" not as a fighter pilot, but as the pilot and astronaut that he currently was...

quote:

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Let us not forget that he was selected in the second NASA astronaut group.

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posted 11-02-2007 10:54 PM               

Neil Armstrong's own flight experience is a classic example with him surviving two ejections (one in a Panther jet in Korea, the other in the LLTV) and being able to also recover from ballooning an X-15 to an altitude where he was too high to make a turn back to Edwards. Two were out of his control, one was sort of in his control. But none makes him a bad pilot. Every pilot has a lot of little flubs they make in the cockpit. Any pilot (even Yeager) who says they can do it perfect everytime is lying through their teeth, no matter how much experience they have. It doesn't happen.

See's bad luck just happened to come at the wrong time and resulted in his death and that of Bassett. Be it pilot error or not, it doesn't mean I think of him any less then another pilot as he apparently seemed to be trying to do things by the book on that approach. We ultimately don't know what happen.

Now if a pilot (even an astronaut) was deliberately screwing around (such as Gordo's low flyby buzzing stunt before his Faith 7 flight, or say a VFR rated pilot with no IFR time who deliberately takes off in IFR conditions with passengers and learns the hard way), then that would be different as not following the rules can put people in harms way for no reason. If something does go wrong and the pilot owes up to it (assuming they survive), then that is different as it means they are taking responsibility for their actions.

Take Gene Cernan's helicopter crash. He dipped a skid into the Banana River and sunk the copter when it got dragged under, but he owed up to his mistake when Deke kept asking "Gene, how high up were you when the engine quit?" (in nudge nudge wink wink fashion). He stuck to that story, knowing full well it might have cost him command of Apollo 17, because that is the kind of man he was.

posted 11-03-2007 07:49 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by taneal1:
Something of great significance that is never mentioned: shortly after this accident "circling approaches" were no longer allowed.

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Pilots are required to maintain the minimum circling altitude (typically 400 ft. above airport elevation) until in a position to make a normal descent to the runway, and must execute a missed approach if they lose sight of the "airport environment" at any point during the circling maneuver.

They are a procedure allowing for very little margin of error with regard to obstacle and terrain clearance, and one that the average pilot such as myself would prefer not to do, especially in marginal weather or at night. Many commercial airplane operators forbid circling approaches under certain conditions or at select airports due to the terrain. I've bailed out of one or two myself because of the "pucker factor" often involved.

posted 11-04-2007 02:57 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Delta7:
...but circling approaches are very much an option and part of the FAA's requirement for pilot training and evaluation to this day.

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posted 11-04-2007 05:47 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
...most of whom don't even know how to spell his first name correctly

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posted 11-06-2007 06:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ejectr:
That picture of Bassett in the space suit has an astronaut's astronaut written all over it to me.

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posted 02-28-2016 03:06 PM               

Remembering NASA Astronauts Elliot See and Charles Bassett

Fifty years ago, the Gemini program was teaching NASA what it needed to know to be able to send crews to the moon. Astronauts were learning to walk and work in zero gravity. Pilots were practicing rendezvous maneuvers and docking spacecraft. Many of the Gemini crews included astronauts who would reach lunar orbit or walk on the lunar surface: Armstrong, Aldrin, Stafford, Young and Cernan, to name just a few.

Two astronauts who were part of Gemini, and who might well have gone on to the Moon, never got the chance. Elliot See and Charles Bassett II, who were scheduled to fly Gemini IX in 1966, died when their T-38 training jet crashed at St. Louis's Lambert Field. They were the second and third casualties (after Theodore C. Freeman) of NASA's astronaut program. To say they've been forgotten would be an overstatement. But they haven't been as well-remembered as other astronauts, and on the 50th anniversary of their deaths, their stories are worth recalling.

See, a 38-year-old Texan, had been a flight engineer and test pilot for the General Electric Company. He joined NASA in September 1962, part of NASA's second astronaut class (the "Next Nine", following the "Original Seven"). He worked with the teams developing guidance and navigations systems and was named backup pilot for Gemini V, then command pilot for Gemini IX.

Bassett, 34, joined the third astronaut class after being a U.S. Air Force pilot. On the ground, he worked with the teams conducting astronaut training and simulations; Gemini IX would be his first assignment.

On Feb. 28, 1966, See and Bassett left Ellington Field in a T-38 training jet for St. Louis. They were planning to spend several days working in the rendezvous simulator at the McDonnell-Douglas facility where their Gemini capsule had only recently been completed. They were accompanied, in another T-38, by their backup crew, Thomas Stafford and Eugene Cernan. The weather in St. Louis was poor for flying: overcast and raining with low clouds and limited visibility.

From the NASA historical publication, On the Shoulders of Titans:

"As the aircraft descended through the overcast, the pilots found themselves too far down the runway to land. See elected to keep the field in sight and he circled to the left underneath the cloud cover. Stafford followed a missed approach procedure and climbed straight ahead into the soup to 600 meters, intending to make another instrument approach. He landed safely on his next attempt. Meanwhile, See had continued his left turn. The aircraft angled toward McDonnell Building 101, where technicians were working on the very spacecraft See and Bassett were scheduled to fly. Apparently recognizing that his sink rate was too high, See cut in his afterburners and attempted a sharp right turn; but it was too late. The aircraft struck the roof of the building and crashed into a courtyard. Both pilots were killed."

An investigative board chaired by astronaut Alan B. Shepherd attributed the crash to weather and pilot error on See's part in choosing to keep his plane so low. See and Bassett are buried near each other in Arlington National Cemetery.

For the first time, NASA replaced a mission's primary crew with a backup crew. Stafford and Cernan completed the Gemini IX mission, which became the first flight on which crews attempted and succeeded on three rendezvous attempts. They would later fly together on Apollo 10, testing the lunar module around the moon in advance of Apollo 11.

posted 03-23-2025 03:26 PM               

Reports indicate that See and Bassett were flying in a southeast direction to land on Runway 12 Right. After missing that initial attempt, See turned to the left to land on Runway 24. They missed the runway, flying too far to the north striking the McDonnell building housing both the Gemini 9 and 10 spacecraft.