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Author
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Topic: Aurora Dec. 2007 space auction
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Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 11-30-2007 06:35 AM
   
quote:
Originally posted by p.kentzinger:
362: Apollo 11 Neil Armstrong Autograph
The scan is too small to be able to tell with any certainty if it is OK (IMO). |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-30-2007 06:38 AM
Just got a bigger scan of it and a complete thumbs down from me; stay away from it. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-30-2007 12:54 PM
Would it be safe to assume Lot 361 isn't that promising either? Looks kind of "drawn" to me. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-30-2007 01:21 PM
Yes, it would be in my opinion. No good. |
Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-30-2007 01:39 PM
Looks like we can only trust cSers nowadays  |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 11-30-2007 02:48 PM
Apart from the suit (which does not interest me) and the early National Air Races memorabilia (which likewise, does not interest me) I don't see anything in the catalogue that I'd be happy to spend my money on.The catalogue is SO poor that it should NOT have been printed and sent out... I mean... think of the trees man... think of the trees! Judging by the content... it looks as though the most of the consignors have decided NOT to send their items to Aurora. A completely woefull selection and an embarassment to the collecting community thinking that we'll buy it  . - Derek |
biker123
Member Posts: 48
From: Palm Coast Fl. USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 11-30-2007 06:07 PM
I'm a newbie to the Space collecting world, though not a newbie to the Space Program. From the general sentiments of the recent posts about this auction it seems to me that maybe someone should start an auction that specializes exclusively in autographs and patches. There's more to the collecting world than autographs and patches.It seems incredible to me that a COA from David Scott is questioned. Remember last month when everyone had their underwear in a knot questioning the second Robert Goddard book that Dr. Buzz Aldrin carried on Apollo 11? Much ado about nothing. There's only so much stuff out there to consign unless people keep forging it (with photoshop) so let's not jump to any conclusions about people "not consigning". With the 40th & 50th anniversaries of the Apollo Program coming up in the next decade there's going to be lot of unusual stuff surface show up in these auctions (especially since a lot of old timers are emptying out their attics). Why do you think one of the big auction houses just had free appraisal seminars in Cape Canaveral & Houston? I doubt they were looking for autographs or patches. Cheer up out there. It's only going to get better. |
Matt T
Member Posts: 1368
From: Chester, Cheshire, UK
Registered: May 2001
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posted 12-01-2007 02:05 AM
While I agree with most of your sentiments I have to disagree with you about questioning the authenticity of Scott's COA. This item is categorically NOT what it is being offered as, and it is far from the first time that there have been questions about items from Scott or Irwin's estate.Cheers,
Matt ------------------
www.spaceracemuseum.com |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 12-01-2007 02:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by biker123:
It seems incredible to me that a COA from David Scott is questioned.
It is questioned because the item is apparently not the one described. I'm sure Scott would be the first to admit that he cannot identify every piece of hardware carried on the flight. If someone, perhaps at Aurora, wrongly identifies an item for him he is likely to go ahead and sign the COA they draw up.It is legitimate to raise concerns about the representation and authentication of items as this is one of the basic duties of an auction house. When running a specialist auction they need to have the best specialists around to do this. quote:
There's only so much stuff out there to consign unless people keep forging it (with photoshop) so let's not jump to any conclusions about people "not consigning"... Cheer up out there. It's only going to get better.
The reason people are making these comments is because a few years ago Aurora was the specialist space auctioneer. Over the last few years people's criticisms of Aurora have been based on quite specific shortcomings that could (and should have been) be addressed. The fact that they have not been has clearly led to people consigning elsewhere which has left them with what you see.Just as a brief summary of shortcoming mentioned many times in threads regarding previous auctions: 1) Poor authentication - Autopens, forgeries or secretarials listed as authentic or other items misrepresented. Employing an expert authenticator would have solved this. 2) Late catalogs - people need time to look through a catalog. Aurora was always a little bit late but it was acceptable. As the years went by the catalogs started getting later and later. People joked about it but it still got worse. This time the online catalog was released 3 days before the auction which is simply incredible. It can only hurt the value that consignors get for their items. They have the right to have their items visible for a reasonable amount of time. 3) Quality of images in online catalogs. The images used have been very poor in recent years. Compare this with Heritage auctions incredible high resolution scans. 4) Communication. Although Aurora's staff are very friendly and helpful to deal with the natural flow of information by email when you are a consignor or buyer is very poor. It is almost always necessary to use the phone to resolve issues. There's probably other things I've forgotten for the moment but these basic issues are all easily addressed and if this had been done in time consignors and buyers would not have been driven elsewhere and Aurora could still be the premier space auction house. Other auction houses (Regency, Swann, Heritage, RR) have fantastic selections of space items for sale, so things aren't getting worse in general. |
machbusterman
Member Posts: 1778
From: Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland
Registered: May 2004
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posted 12-01-2007 03:37 AM
Aurora are not stupid. IMHO, if the catalogue's are late going on-line or arriving at customers it gives the collecting community less time to comment on the (quite often lack of) authenticity of the items.... ergo:- less potential bidders will be aware of the controversy over these items and more bids are likely to be placed. |
biker123
Member Posts: 48
From: Palm Coast Fl. USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 12-01-2007 07:59 AM
My apologies... didn't mean to offend or criticize any of you. Regarding the Dave Scott COA it's my belief that he wouldn't sign a COA unless he could personally verify the status of an item, and if that's not case it's very scary. Could this be a description/listing error?
Please help me understand this. |
daveblog
Member Posts: 135
From: Bergenfield, NJ USA
Registered: May 2004
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posted 12-01-2007 10:41 AM
the catalog just arrived here in NJ. only 2 1/2 hours before the auction. Also, I noticed lot 908 which I mentioned earlier is no longer on Ebay. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2915
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-01-2007 12:38 PM
My Aurora catalog just arrived in the mail, but I haven't had enough time to examine all the lots. There are autopens scattered throughout some of the pages with no indication they are indeed autopens along with mis-descriptions on what some of the lots are depicted as being. |
Frewi80
Member Posts: 120
From: Hawaii. Waipahu
Registered: Jun 2006
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posted 12-01-2007 01:17 PM
How come I'm not approved for this auction? I never had any problems logging into the Aurora auctions for bidding, now it seems that the approval status seems to take a long time? What is going on with this auction? Still no catalog... anyway it seems that this auction has a lot of 'junk'... |
art540
Member Posts: 432
From: Orange, California USA
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 12-01-2007 01:18 PM
I have won 3 lots so far and no catalog yet. The descriptions are poor and lacking in details for some lots. Low cost so I bid anyway. |
DOX32
Member Posts: 242
From: Lakewood Ranch FL USA
Registered: Jul 2004
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posted 12-01-2007 03:00 PM
Just got the catalog as lot 341 opened.any comments on Lot 364 Armstrong???? Woody |
Kevin
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 12-01-2007 04:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Frewi80:
How come I'm not approved for this auction?
The same thing has happened to me. I used to be able to be approved as soon as I logged in. Three hours later still no approval. The plus side is that it appears I am not really missing anything. |
art540
Member Posts: 432
From: Orange, California USA
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 12-01-2007 08:43 PM
As a returning customer to Aurora I simply faxed in my bids and had no issues at all over the years.I logged on to ebay via Live Auctioneers for the first time and I had no issues. I must have been fortunate. |
astromancyyz
New Member Posts: 8
From: Canada
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-02-2007 06:50 AM
Hi FolksThis is my first post here, altho my collection started (omg!) 40 years ago. Did well with Regency-Superior in Oct., but was verrry cautious with Aurora yesterday. Thanks for all the comments and warnings. I won 3 small lots using Ebay Live and the online catalogue with no problems. In the first session, prices on most items generally seem depressed and bidding sluggish. There were some bargains to be had if you paid sharp attention to bidding, the estimates, recent values and your gut. This auction is a dealer's patch and pin paradise but mostly a yawn for us: nothing really made me want to open my wallet much. Good for filling in holes in a collection. However, without COAs, closeup scans, provenance or >something<, any signature over $100 is off my list. Unlike some, I am cursed with having more brains than money. There are a few lots that interest me today (Sun session), but thanks to the cS community, you've made me a much more aware buyer. I'll report how they treated me when the stuff arrives here in Toronto in a few weeks (it better!). Cheers! |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 12-02-2007 04:45 PM
I was wondering, can anybody shed any light on the fate of the A7L suit at yesterdays auction, lot # 207?I was following the bidding and the suit popped up... only to disappear just as quickly without a single bid apparently being placed. Yet I know of several bids, none of which were mine I hasten to add. quote:
Originally posted by ArtandAstro:
Lot 207 A7L suit: Great item, but I doubt that the consignor has the right to own and sell it.
Len I was intrigued by your comment. I have seen many suit pieces, even complete prototypes, crop up over the years and the right of the consignor to sell has not been questioned. I was curious to know what prompted you to question this particular example?Regards, Rick |
David Mather
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 12-03-2007 04:25 AM
I spoke to Victoria about Lot 207 and apparently it was sold by private treaty prior to the auction but after the catalogues had been printed. Lost in space. I will be wearing black for a year.... |
benguttery
Member Posts: 547
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 12-04-2007 08:00 PM
For you lucky gents who won some of the patch lots in this auction, how about sharing the wealth? If you have any duplicate patches, please let me know. Ben |
spaceman1953
Member Posts: 953
From: South Bend, IN
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 12-08-2007 12:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
682: A Rock Run Over by the Crawler
Hey! A rock run over by the Apollo crawler! In 1973, I was involved with a space cover servicer in South Carolina (?) and we were working on a project that I ultimately completely finished... and he sent me as a gift one year, a small piece of rock from KSC that he had made into a tie-clasp! I, of course, still have that. And thought it was just a GREAT idea.I did not think to pick up any rocks at KSC in 1971 when me and my dad had a private NASA tour of the Space Center. Gene |
Apollo14LMP
Member Posts: 291
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-08-2007 05:15 PM
Aurora Auctions' postage is expensive! I won an Apollo 14 tie tac... little weight! Aurora's US to UK postage = $15.00!And they only take cheques off Paypal (takes ages to process). Don't know why? Unless I am desperate for something... I will not buy from these people again! I appreciate people have to make money but extortionate postage mark up is annoying and not business like so BE WARNED! Tie tac is nice... $20.00 but postage cost nearly as much. A14LMP (Not the real one!) |
Outerspace
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 12-08-2007 06:39 PM
Maybe I am missing something, but why do you think that $15 postage from the United States is "extortionate"? Look at the USPS website, linked below, to see the prices. A priority mail flat-rate envelope is $11.00. You certainly would not want your purchase sent regular mail, would you? If the post office charges $11.00, why is a postage charge of $15.00 so bothersome? http://ircalc.usps.gov/IntlMailServices.aspx?Country=10150&M=5&P=0&O=1 |
Apollo14LMP
Member Posts: 291
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-08-2007 09:14 PM
Why wouldn't I want the item sent normal mail?I buy loads of similar items from eBay sellers and they don't charge anything near this for mailing stuff so I would like as per eBay, a choice of the way stuff is mailed. Items rarely lost! $20.00 to buy an item, then $15.00 plus buyer premium to post stuff. They don't offer a choice. I will state the cost of postage when it arrives. I bought a watch off eBay. The seller charged me $26.00 to post insured the item (tracked) The watch was heavier than a tie tac! It will cost them a $1 to post this item. That is why I am annoyed! For $20.00 am not really going to lose sleep. $15.00 for $20.00 item ...ridiculous! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-08-2007 09:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Apollo14LMP:
I buy loads of similar items from eBay sellers and they don't charge anything near this for mailing stuff so I would like as per eBay, a choice of the way stuff is mailed.
Comparing an eBay seller to an auction house is like comparing your mother's vegetable garden to a grocery store. Both may share product in common, but the latter doesn't have the luxury of giving away the farm. In other words, professional businesses have overhead expenses, and while it might be fine for you to risk your item to regular mail, it's simply not a chance most businesses will accept. Not to mention, there are expenses as to the shipping supplies and the salary for the person who is packaging and mailing your item. Unless they are running a holiday shipping special, I think you would be hard pressed to find any U.S. company that would be willing or able to ship an item overseas for $1. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-09-2007 03:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
In other words, professional businesses have overhead expenses, and while it might be fine for you to risk your item to regular mail, it's simply not a chance most businesses will accept. Not to mention, there are expenses as to the shipping supplies and the salary for the person who is packaging and mailing your item.
So where does the excessive buyer's premium go? Or for that matter, the seller's premium? Auction houses cream off between 40 and 50% of the sale price in buyer/seller commissions and it's certainly not always obvious that much of this goes in servicing the customer. These are cash-cow businesses, which, run efficiently (!), should make margins that retailers could only dream of. As for this specific postage case, that's life. I'm sure they are not profiting from what you consider to be "excessive" and you can always contact then for another service. Paul |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-09-2007 03:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
So where does the... buyer's premium go?
There are quite a few expenses involved with running an auction that go above and beyond shipping and handling. Professional photography of every lot does not come cheaply (either by time or money), neither does the printing cost of the catalogs. Presumably, eBay Live Auctions and LiveAuctioneers (among similar services) requires a percentage-based or flat fee for their services. Then there are the costs associated with operating a facility, including insurance for all the lots received and cared for, and insurance for the bidder traffic through the auction gallery during previews and live bidding. More mundane business costs, such as phone bills, electricity and of course, staff salaries. And then, yes, there is a profit built in, because auction houses are not charities; they wouldn't be organizing the sales unless they felt they could benefit themselves by doing so. |
freshspot
unregistered
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posted 12-09-2007 04:42 AM
I purchased five items at the December 2007 Aurora auction and am very pleased with the low prices I paid (even when "excessive" premium and "expensive" postage are included).Purchasing at auction is a personal choice. What's the point of bitching and moaning after the fact? Dave Scott
(not the astronaut) http://www.apolloartifacts.com/
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poofacio
Member Posts: 268
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 12-09-2007 04:55 AM
I second that. I have always found Aurora charming to deal with. They are very transparent about their charges as are the other auction houses. I have the choice to use them or not to use them. I also bought a lot of items in the December auction at very reasonable prices. The reason they only accept Paypal cheques is cost. Paypal and card companies charge a fee on the whole amount, the auction house therefore would have to absorb this fee on the consignor's share as well |
mikelarson
Member Posts: 293
From: Port Washington, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 12-09-2007 02:13 PM
$15 for shipping an item from the US to the UK is more than reasonable IMO, no matter how small the item is. In addition to the shipping charge, there is the cost of insurance and packaging material and also have to deal with the added time of completing the customs paperwork.While I've never bid with Aurora, it appears that they have many opportunities to improve their business practices, all of which are mentioned in this thread. But charging $15 for overseas shipping is not something that will make me think twice before bidding with them in the future. Mike |
Apollo14LMP
Member Posts: 291
From: UK
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 12-09-2007 06:54 PM
I disagree. If you bought something off eBay, and the seller charged you 10 times the postage cost you would no doubt complain.They do not disclose their postage prices till post auction. If it was an expensive item, shipped with insurance, perhaps $15.00. But they should be open and upfront and not use postage (intl) to make bucks. What gets the most complaints on eBay? Yes, post and packing! If I had bought this item in the UK - postage a pound - then got a bill for £15.00 pound who could agree with that? Would you? If they said postage will be $$$$$ then I would not have bid. They put the item on auction, why should I pay for their colorful auction magazine? They will no doubt ship (if they do) by cheapest means. They haven't even claimed the Paypal e-cheque yet, boy they seem like hard work. I have seen them post here, and good and bad said about them. Me, well I will wait and reserve judgment for now. |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 12-09-2007 09:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Apollo14LMP:
$15.00 for $20.00 item ...ridiculous!
You are just not getting the point that it doesn't matter how much the item in question cost- to mail something across the Atlantic Ocean costs money. On Saturday I sent a small paper item to the UK, so I know that Flat Rate Priority Mail (the best way for a business to mail something to a customer, for convenience and speed) costs $11. The item cost $10, and I warned the buyer that the shipping was going to be more than what the item cost, but she understood.If Aurora added any kind of insurance or other feature, or sent it in some other way besides Flat Rate, it is certainy going to be about $15. Of course, if they just sent it First Class it would be closer to, say, $7, in which case their price would be a bit steep. Did they specify the method? Steve |
NC Apollo Fan
Member Posts: 261
From: Belmont, NC USA
Registered: Jul 2000
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posted 12-09-2007 09:04 PM
I too agree that $15 is a reasonable overseas charge to the UK, regardless of the value of the item. I regularly send photos and such to my relatives in the UK and often find myself paying far more in postage than the item itself is worth (and that is sending it plain old first class with no overhead and no insurance costs). To be honest, if I purchased something from a UK auction house and had it shipped to me in the States for $15 I would consider myself fortunate - especially if it had been insured.Interestingly enough, I ordered a St. George tie tack about a month ago. After reading this thread I pulled out the receipt to check the shipping costs from the UK and it was 8 pounds sterling. That was more than $16 based on the exchange at the time, and I considered it reasonable. Jonathan |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-10-2007 04:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by freshspot:
I purchased five items at the December 2007 Aurora auction and am very pleased with the low prices I paid (even when "excessive" premium and "expensive" postage are included).Purchasing at auction is a personal choice. What's the point of bitching and moaning after the fact?
Very happy for you.FWIW I wasn't "bitching or moaning" and at least I'm not complacent about fees. It's surprising how "negotiable" auction houses can be when offered a large consignment. I feel terrible about the impact on their bottom line... Paul |
benguttery
Member Posts: 547
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 12-18-2007 04:16 PM
Very, very, very finely packed items arrived today in Texas. Merry Christmas to me! |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 12-19-2007 02:08 PM
Where can Aurora's prices realized be accessed? I haven't been able to find them. |
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