posted 03-18-2006 01:45 AM               

The following highlights were identified by Aurora.

Featured collections in this sale:

• The Astronaut Alan Bean Family Collection
• The Astronaut Michael Collins Collection
• The Astronaut Richard Gordon Collection
• The Cosmonaut Valery Kubasov Collection
• The Astronaut Robert OvermeyerEstate Collection
• The Astronaut David Scott Collection

• Original Mercury Spacesuit Glove and Spacesuit Cooling Pack
• Photograph signed by all 7 Mercury astronauts
• Gemini Spacesuit Glove
• Gene Kranz's personal Gemini Model, CSM Model and Lunar Module Model
• Richard Gordon's PPK flown aboard Gemini 11
• Assortment of Apollo spacecraft and spacesuit hardware
• Kennedy Space Center Fire Suit
• "Reaching for the Stars" Lithograph signed by 19 astronauts
• Apollo Command Module and Saturn V models signed by numerous astronauts; these items benefit the Space Walk of Fame
• U.S. Flags flown on Apollo 12 and Apollo 16
• Apollo 12 flown checklists, ex. Richard Gordon's collection
• Jim Irwin's Apollo 15 liquid cooling garment
• David Scott's Apollo 15 headset used on the lunar surface
• Patches made specially for Apollo Soyuz crew
• Aviator teddy bears with scarves signed by Apollo astronauts plus Gene Kranz; these items benefit the Corporate Angel Network

posted 03-20-2006 09:42 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spaced out:
On the positive side, a great collection of flown foreign flags from Apollo 15. If I were Dutch, Swiss or German I'd be snapping up one of those flags!

---

Interesting that you're finding the PDF images too small. They look perfectly sized and in great detail on my monitor. In fact, that was somthing that really impressed me as well as the quality of the imagery in this online catalog.

posted 03-20-2006 06:56 PM               

Put briefly - the astronauts trained almost exclusively in flight quality hardware, made to the exact same spec and standards as the flown suits. Where the appropriate suits were not available the second option was old prototype or obsolete suits (such as the A6L which was used on occasions for Apollo training, and the Gemini G2C which was used by many contractors).

The problem with some items in Aurora is that they do not appear to be authentic hardware, but rather to be mock-ups or cosmetic copies. They may well be vintage copies, possibly from NASA, but the difference is the same as that between an autograph and an autopen. One's the real thing, the other just isn't.

To suggest that these items were used in training by astronauts is very doubtful. Look through the training photos in the Apollo Archive; I've yet to find one astronaut training in a mock-up. The only place I've encountered photos of mock-ups in a NASA setting is in educational exhibits and such-like at the various centres.

I'm working from the fairly limited photos and brief descriptions in the catalogue, so these concusions are entirely open to being corrected by Aurora or their consignor. (And believe me I'd love to be wrong There's a few things in there I'd love to own if they were the real deal).

Very few of the item descriptions give manufacturer's serial numbers which is a departure from previous Aurora suit sales. In the case of the A7L suit, the lunar EVA boots, the Snoopy caps and several others these should be present. Their absence would confirm the likelihood of these items being replicas or mock-ups.

My thoughts (in order of concern) on a lot by lot basis -

Lots 193 and 194
Snoopy caps - judging from the photo these are not genuine Apollo Snoopy caps. The main difference is the white cloth; the real items don't have the 'string-vest' type mesh. The shape of the ear electronics looks wrong (it seems to be missing the jutting area below the mic that would connect to the electrical harness) and the colouration doesn't look right. Plus there's no David Clark manufacturer's tag mentioned in the description. I think these are mock-ups.

For the real thing look here -

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/surfacesrendered/ComCapLR.jpg

Lot 211 & 212
Lunar boots - both these differ from the real thing quite significantly. The blue of the silicone soles seems to be wearing off at the toes; the genuine items are a blue silicone right the way through. 211 has no metallic Chromel-R covering while the metallic cloth of 212 doesn't look like Chromel-R. I would suggest that at best 211 is a prototype, but probably a mock-up, and 212 is almost certainly a mock-up/replica.

For the real thing -

http://www.myspacemuseum.com/bootglove.htm
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/Schmittlunarbootright1.jpg

Lot: 183
Apollo A7L Spacesuit Used by Astronauts for Training

Described as 'high fidelity' - so it's a copy presumably. The lot title and description should state this if so. Without more details (is it just the ITMG or is their a pressure suit under there? is it made by ILC? is it beta cloth?) it's very hard to tell what this is.

Lots 213 to 217
These don't correspond to a known part of the A7L. They may have been used to protect the astronaut's actual boots (although yellow rubber slippers and beta cloth sole covers are frequently seen in photos). They could equally well be booties for white room personnel. The 'A7L Spacesuit' part of the description should be dropped.

Lots 190 to 192
Pressure helmet pads - without serial numbers of better photos it's hard to judge these. They don't correspond to a complete pad, but could be elements.

A good view of the real thing is here -

http://www.myspacemuseum.com/helmet.htm

Lots 197 to 203
Beta cloth helmet covers - I would dearly love better/more detailed photos of these items, or even better would be some serial numbers. Comparing them to genuine examples on the web is so tricky as to be inconclusive. Anyone who wants a try should check out the photos of the undoubted real thing at -

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/A17HHS-Flown-Suit.html

Lots 185 through 189
PLSS covers and EVA helmet components - These could well be the real thing, but in the company of other doubtful items I'm troubled by the absence of serial numbers.

Lot 206 & 207
Replica gloves and sleeves - very poor replicas, if items of this quality were used for training by astronauts there is no photographic record of it.

To sum up - my opinion is that the descriptions of the items above in the catalogue should either be bolstered with more info/serial numbers or ammended to indicate that these are 'vintage mock-ups' or 'vintage replicas'.

I'd like to hear other collectors' views.

Cheers,
Matt

posted 03-20-2006 07:26 PM               

quote:

---

To sum up - my opinion is that the descriptions of the items above in the catalogue should either be bolstered with more info/serial numbers or ammended to indicate that these are 'vintage mock-ups' or 'vintage replicas'.

---

Please note that the Apollo spacesuit was made by ILC

Best regards,
Victoria

posted 03-20-2006 07:46 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by VCampbell:
Matt - thank you for your comments. As you can see by the description in the catalog, we were told by the consignor that these items "used in training" and we qualified that by saying "probably used in training."

---

------------------
Scott Schneeweis

URL http://www.SPACEAHOLIC.com/

posted 03-20-2006 07:57 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by LT Scott Schneeweis:
[QUOTE]"Probably" implies to the reader a high likelyhood the item was used in training..absent substantiating evidence supporting that position wouldn't it be better for Aurora to specifically indicate "Consigner reports this item was used in Training"?

---

Victoria Campbell
CEO, Aurora

posted 03-20-2006 08:21 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by VCampbell:
Scott - the consignor who told us these items were used in training is a very credible source; and while your suggestion for wording makes sense, it is not how we have typically described it. But I appreciate the suggestion for the future.

Victoria Campbell
CEO, Aurora

---

As a bidder then, my default assumption would have to be these were not used or designated for training without provenance....the statement PROBABLY USED IN TRAINING is clearly applied to drive up the perceived value of the artifact by collectors without liability to Aurora if its proved to not be so....is this ethical practice?

R/Scott

posted 03-20-2006 08:44 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by divemaster:
Well, then, you'd have to question the "Used by Neil Armstrong" quotes [and the like] in the Swann Auction last week when they were really items from Buzz.

---

I understand Victoria's position however, I would personally favor and encourage a future situation where if the consignor wants to make a claim that cannot be independently verified, that all auction houses adopt a requirement that the consignor's identity and his/her credentials to make such a claim are made public. The consignor would be left with a choice: protect his/her privacy or benefit from his/her identity being used as an asset.

posted 03-20-2006 08:56 PM               

I don't doubt that Neil may have breathed on or touched Lot 122 in the Swann auction, but it's a Buzz item - and Gregg worded the item [properly] to attract attention. There wasn't any writing [or hair clippings] by Neil on the item.

Remember, catalogs are used by the auction house and the consignors to advertise their consignments.

I can FULLY understand both sides of this discussion. I just want to play devil's advocate for both sides.

posted 03-20-2006 10:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by LT Scott Schneeweis:
As a bidder then, my default assumption would have to be these were not used or designated for training without provenance....the statement PROBABLY USED IN TRAINING is clearly applied to drive up the perceived value of the artifact by collectors without liability to Aurora if its proved to not be so....is this ethical practice?

R/Scott

---

Our auction house absolutely DOES NOT write descriptions with the intent of driving up prices in an unethical manner. We also stand behind what we sell, offering a 100% refund if a customer returns an item that he or she has an issue with. And I have done so on the very few occasions an issue has arisen.

Victoria

posted 03-21-2006 01:35 AM               

quote:

---

As you can see by the description in the catalog, we were told by the consignor that these items "used in training" and we qualified that by saying "probably used in training." Also, on some items like the overgloves we have described them as replicas rather than the the real article.

---

The problem with stating that suit items were either used or probably used in training is that it very strongly suggests that the item is authentic spacesuit hardware. Apollo astronauts trained in suits that were no different to their flight suits. By using 'training' in the description you are actually laying a greater claim to authenticity.

Regarding the use of the replica caveat in the catalogue; at present it only occurs once in the suit section with reference to the gloves in lot 206.

Cheers,
Matt

posted 03-21-2006 01:40 AM               

quote:

---

Well, Neil may have touched the item. I thought it was a bit of poetic license. However, I took it for what it was intended - to attract my attention.
I don't doubt that Neil may have breathed on or touched Lot 122 in the Swann auction, but it's a Buzz item - and Gregg worded the item [properly] to attract attention. There wasn't any writing [or hair clippings] by Neil on the item

---

Even so there is no doubt that it is a genuine authentic piece of hardware, which cannot be said of the suit items above. Quite an important difference I think.

Cheers,
Matt

posted 03-21-2006 02:15 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by VCampbell:
(...)We also stand behind what we sell, offering a 100% refund if a customer returns an item that he or she has an issue with. And I have done so on the very few occasions an issue has arisen. (...)

Victoria

---

I can say it's absolutely true. A year ago I bought a Charlie Duke document signed by him with a piece of a bag used in the LM. When I got it, I noticed the document was indeed a photocopy, the same one offered in 2 other lots in the same auction, though it was clearly described as authentic signatures. The flown part was there and was probably genuine, but I just didn't want it on that ugly photocopy and I felt unsafe.
I called Aurora, and they didn't argue at all, and immediately put the money back on my Card, while I sent the item back from Switzerland to Cal.
They weren't even angry or anything, I even got their next catalog.
Of course, I was not thrilled by the lot itself, who was NOT described properly, but the problem was handled nicely and that's quite important and nice to know.

posted 03-21-2006 06:43 PM               

Lot 14 ... Autopens (APs) of Cooper, Slayton and Stafford. It is my belief that Shepard is an early secretarial not seldom seen.

Lot 50 ... AP-Shepard and my belief that this is the first AP-matrix of any astro.

Lot 62 ... The strange-looking Glenn needs a better scan to examine from.

Lot 388 ... Eisele may be AP, needs scan.

Lot 403 ... Weird looking Borman & Lovell.

Lot 435 ... All Apollo 11 crew forgeries.

Lot 551 ... All Apollo 14 crew APs.

Lot 552 ... (Same as above)

Lot 558 ... A Shepard secretarial.

Lot 572 ... May not be Irwin-flown spacesuit comfort glove as I have the same and I don't think his flown glove would be bagged like this with that type of format inventory sticker. Strongly believe not flown on the mission ! ! !

Lot 583 ... Needs a better scan as the Scott looks funny to me, huh.

Lot 585 ... Crew APs.

Lot 698 ... Needs better scan for viewing.

Lot 700 ... APs of Brand and Slayton; and looks to be a bad Stafford as well.

Lot 701 ... Stafford AP.

Lot 702 ... APs of Stafford and Slayton.

Lot 704 ... A bad Leonov (Don't like it)!

Lot 705 ... (Same as above).

posted 03-23-2006 03:28 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
The lot must be closely axamined as this may be one of a known-fabricated autograph forger from outside the USA

---

Please elaborate, as not everyone is in the privileged position of knowing who you are referring to. I am clearly under the misapprehension that he was US-resident.

Paul

posted 03-26-2006 02:10 PM               

Lot 284 ... This Aldrin seems odd to me.

Lot 643 ... Not flown in space at all Only a piece that came from the same thermal radiation shroud roll that was used for Apollo 16's IU-thermal insulation.

Lot 762 ... Not genuine autographs of the crew. The signatures at the bottom of the crew emblem were part of the cachet envelope's print production. This is actually one of the "VIP"-produced cachet covers for the mission of Skylab IV.

Lot 1068 ... AP of Shaw; others are good.

posted 03-26-2006 07:39 PM               

388- Eisele and also Schirra
551,552- Apollo 14 crew
585- Apollo 15 crew
701, 702- Stafford

Also, the estimate for some of the unautographed space covers are so far out of line as to be ridiculous:

112- 2 GT-11 and GT-12 secondary ship recovery covers, est. $50-75: actual at most $10.
113- 1967 space walk twin stamp FDC, est. $150, actual at most $10.
146- GT-9 Wasp prime recovery ship cover with Beck printed cachet, est. $75-100, actual about $30.
155- GT-11 secondary ship cover, est. $100-150; actual about $5.
685- Apollo 17 Ticonderoga prime recovery ship cover, est. $100-150, actual about $10.

The Aurora staff has on a regular basis passed off autopenned items as genuine. I do not believe this is on purpose, but reflects either a sloppy job preparing the lot descriptions or a lack of knowlege. If one compares the Aurora catalog to the ones produced by Swann or Regency-Superior, the latter two have been consistently more accurate. At first I attributed this to growing pains on the part of Aurora, but they have had enough auctions under their belt to get things right-- and they haven't.

I intend to place a few bids, but buyer beware!

David

posted 03-29-2006 07:34 AM               

I've emailed both Aurora and the Space Walk of Fame for more background info, better photos or serial numbers but had no response so far. However Aurora have ammended the online descriptions of lots 193 and 194 (the Snoopy Caps) to include the word 'replica'.

A couple more spacesuit items that I'm not confident match their descriptions -

Lot 4, the Mercury glove. This differs significantly from the flown B.F.Goodrich version of the Mercury glove; the finger tip bulbs are in the wrong place; the battery holder is in the wrong place; there are no fitting laces on the back; the glove doesn’t have the trademark ‘silver space suit’ aluminized finish; the flared gauntlet shape of the glove is more in keeping with an Apollo EVA glove than a Mercury suit glove; overall it bears little resemblance to the genuine B.F. Goodrich made gloves. Without some further background info or corroborating pics/documents this looks like a mock-up in my opinion.

Lot 579, Jim Irwin's A7LB training helmet. All the A7LB EVA suits (used from Apollo 15 onwards) had the new designed neck ring, anodized red. All the training photos of Irwin from Apollo 15 show him wearing a red neck ring helmet. As this helmet has a blue neck ring it doesn't appear that this is Irwin's Apollo 15 A7LB helmet.

Joe Schmitt (the lead suit tech) mentions in his Oral History that Irwin made early training runs for Apollo 15 in 'suit 12' which may be a reference to Walt Cunningham's Apollo 7 backup suit; this would have had a blue neck ring. So it may still be an A7L training helmet, but as there is no mention of a serial number in the description this is conjecture.

Cheers,
Matt