Topic: [Discuss] Boeing Starliner Crew Flight Test
CMD_OVRD Member
Posts: 80 From: Dallas, TX Registered: Jul 2009
posted 09-04-2024 01:19 PM
There are no spacesuits that work there ... and so in a temporary situation, we would not have suits for Butch or Suni on Dragon.
That makes sense! I was trying to figure out what use the suit(s) were if there was no way to ventilate or pressurize them. Thanks for the update!
ejectr Member
Posts: 2019 From: Killingly, CT Registered: Mar 2002
posted 09-05-2024 10:25 AM
Sounds like a good idea to standardize on one or the other. I know SpaceX is private, but in cases like this... wouldn't it make sense?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-05-2024 11:44 AM
SpaceX has developed and manufactured its pressure suit in house. The only outside assistance they sought was in its aesthetic look.
The Starliner suits worn by Wilmore and Williams on CFT were made by the David Clark Company. Future Starliner crews (beginning with Starliner-1) will wear a suit dveloped by ILC Dover.
As NASA had no requirement for compatibility between suits, there is little reason either company will agree to changes now, especially as SpaceX further develops its suit for EVA use and ILC is eager to see its new suit fly.
Axman Member
Posts: 586 From: Derbyshire UK Registered: Mar 2023
posted 09-05-2024 12:23 PM
Still, one would think there was good enough reason to at least contemplate a basic adapter to be able to fit each other's suits to each other's systems! Not exactly rocket science.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-05-2024 02:04 PM
Well, rocket science or not, per NASA, neither company nor the space agency is pursuing making that happen.
SpaceAholic Member
Posts: 5394 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-05-2024 03:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by Axman: Not exactly rocket science.
Peel the onion and it winds up being a larger challenge then just a mechanical interface. Suits are designed to function with unique pressures, gas flow rates, volumetric parameters, electrical standards for comms and telemetry.
p51 Member
Posts: 1785 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 09-05-2024 04:20 PM
Am I the only one who's thinking about the different shaped canisters on Apollo 13, when thinking about the incompatible systems in each capsule type these days?
mercsim Member
Posts: 258 From: Phoenix, AZ Registered: Feb 2007
posted 09-06-2024 08:33 AM
I realize this is a simplified example. I'm a lifelong modeler and fly RC airplanes. I'm also a retired mechanical/aerospace engineer.
Most models are electric these days and I have several adapters to fly various batteries in different manufacturer's electronics. It seems like some adapters could be engineered for various spacesuits. Even thinking back to the portable units early astronauts carried out to the pad.
Pressure and gas mixture may not be exact but something could be done for emergencies. Electrical and communications should be fairly straight forward to adapt. NASA really should have been standardizing or at least incorporating some sort of adapters from the beginning of the ISS. With commercial space opening up, it's not to late.
ejectr Member
Posts: 2019 From: Killingly, CT Registered: Mar 2002
posted 09-06-2024 08:37 AM
I'm not buying the "because that's the way it is" reason. We're talking human lives in emergency situations here. The gentleman mentioning a square peg in a round hole issue. Did we learn nothing from that in all these years?
Axman Member
Posts: 586 From: Derbyshire UK Registered: Mar 2023
posted 09-06-2024 09:31 AM
quote:Originally posted by SpaceAholic: Peel the onion and it winds up being a larger challenge then just a mechanical interface.
Well, no, not really. Peeling the onion right back to the core, and that is exactly what it is: a very straightforward mechanical interface problem. Solved by a basic adapter. It doesn't have to work perfectly it just needs to keep somebody alive for a short duration. I'm pretty sure the Soyuz 11 cosmonauts would have preferred a basic suit to no suit at all.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:26 AM
Even if there was an adapter, there are no additional umbilical connection points inside Dragon and none that reach below the installed seats. The spacecraft, in its current configuration, is not intended to fly more than four people.
(Regarding the Apollo carbon dioxide scrubbers, Apollo wasn't redesigned after Apollo 13 to standardize LiOH canister shapes, nor was a formal adapter built and flown. The makeshift fix was added to the remaining missions' planning documents, but that was it.)
Meanwhile, today is undocking and landing day for Starliner...
star61 Member
Posts: 317 From: Bristol UK Registered: Jan 2005
posted 09-06-2024 04:17 PM
I have to admit to being baffled as to how we got here. The fact is Boeing have screwed the pooch massively. They seem to have issues in almost every sector they are involved.
Generally software, sometimes hardware, often both. Why are they being defended so strongly? As I mentioned in an earlier post, most of these issues were sorted out 50 years ago. It reminds me of the arrogance shown by North American when developing Apollo with regards to Gemini and Douglas. It didn't end well for three courageous astronauts.
As others have mentioned, surely interoperability of life preserving systems is a no brainer. I'm amazed actually that after 60 years of spaceflight and 20+ years of a permanently crewed space station, no generic provision for emergency return to Earth was not planned.
We have better materials, better computers, much more knowledge and experience, yet it takes years longer to do what should be straightforward. It took 66 years from the Wright brothers to Apollo 11. Sixty years after Gemini and Boeing struggle with parachute straps and attitude thrusters.
Billion dollar boondoggles anyone?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 04:46 PM
You answered your own question. All of those "better materials, better computers, much more knowledge and experience" require a different and much more complex process to integrate than the analog spacecraft of the past (to say nothing of the added attention to safety; we were much more risk-prone during the space race).
While they share the same company name, Boeing Aviation and Boeing Space are practically different companies. Trying to draw a line from the problems of one to the other is just as faulty as the issues each have encountered with their vehicles.
If, as I hope we all hope, tonight's landing goes smoothly, then all the handwringing over Boeing may be for nought. Even if things go less than ideally, or even in the case of a loss of vehicle, this was a test flight. It is meant to be learning exercise, not an invitation for criticism or cancellation.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 04:51 PM
NASA video
Watch live as Boeing's Starliner spacecraft departs from the International Space Station for a landing at White Sands Space Harbor in New Mexico.
The uncrewed spacecraft is scheduled to autonomously undock from the station at approximately 6:04 p.m. EDT (2204 UTC) Friday, Sept. 6, to begin the journey home.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 05:30 PM
NASA video
Watch live as Boeing's uncrewed Starliner spacecraft leaves low Earth orbit, reenters Earth's atmosphere, and touches down at White Sands Space Harbor in New Mexico.
Starliner is scheduled to begin its deorbit burn at 11:17 p.m. EDT on Friday, Sept. 6 (0317 UTC Sept. 7), with landing scheduled for 12:03 a.m. EDT (0403 UTC) on Saturday, Sept. 7.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1140 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 09-06-2024 06:15 PM
Imagine the recriminations and repercussions for NASA if Starliner lands without any problems? Months spent mulling over nothing and even discarding astronauts from an upcoming crew rotation run to accommodate the Starliner pair (whom I'm sure are delighted to spend the new year in low earth orbit).
Some might say: better to be safe than sorry. Perhaps, but small consolation to Boeing personnel who've been mocked and scorned plus the unfortunate Zena Cardman and Stephanie Wilson.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 06:54 PM
During the space shuttle program, NASA scrubbed multiple launches out of concern for the weather in Spain in order to protect for a trans-Atlantic abort. Other than disappointed launch spectators, no one seriously criticized the agency for insisting on putting the crew's safety first, even though there was never a need for a TAL abort over the course of the 30-year program.
While the ultimate goal for commercial spaceflight is airline-like operations, we are not there yet, and this was a test flight. If Starliner lands safely — as both Boeing and NASA expect — some may question why the agency was so conservative. Given what the alternative outcome might have been, though, I doubt NASA will see its decision roundly criticized.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 08:53 PM
Per NASA:
Starliner's entry cover has been closed and secured for entry.
Upcoming events (EDT):
59-second deorbit burn - 11:17 p.m.
Service module jettison - 11:20 p.m.
Parachute deploy begins - 11:56 p.m.
Landing - 12:00 a.m.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:03 PM
Flight controllers tested some of Starliner's thrusters after the capsule separated from the space station.
During a test of the crew module's 12 small reaction control system thrusters, one of the jets didn't fire when commanded.
The reaction control system thrusters on the crew module are used to steer Starliner as it makes its way back down to Earth after the service module has been jettisoned. Because those 12 jets are divided into two redundant strings of six, Starliner only uses one string during normal operations. So although this means a slight loss of redundancy, it shouldn't keep Starliner from getting through reentry and landing as expected.
The team also tested 10 of the 28 jets on the service module, and they all fired as expected.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:20 PM
The 59-second deorbit burn is complete.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:21 PM
The service module has been jettisoned.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:46 PM
Entry interface.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:53 PM
Starliner seen reentering from both the International Space Station and from 16,000 feet by NASA's WB-57 aircraft.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 10:59 PM
Three main parachutes fully deployed and rear heat shield jettisoned.
All six airbags inflated.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-06-2024 11:03 PM
Touchdown! At 12:01:30 a.m. EDT (0401 GMT) or 10:01:30 p.m. MDT local time.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1140 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 09-06-2024 11:30 PM
It seems that Wilmore and Williams would have survived after all. 🙄
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-07-2024 12:27 AM
NASA video
NASA leaders discuss the conclusion of the flight test of Boeing's Starliner spacecraft.
Participants are:
Joel Montalbano, deputy associate administrator, Space Operations Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters
Steve Stich, manager, Commercial Crew Program, NASA Kennedy
Dana Weigel, manager, International Space Station, NASA Johnson
Aeropix Member
Posts: 63 From: Dubai Registered: Apr 2010
posted 09-07-2024 09:43 AM
As to the post flight NASA panel, of course as per usual the Boeing rep is glaringly absent. Has the Boeing rep shown up to any conference since their capsule launched?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-07-2024 10:00 AM
Mark Nappi, Boeing's commercial crew program manager, was on the panel for several press briefings up to and through Starliner arriving at the space station. He was only absent from the few briefings leading up to the landing.
Nappi and John Shannon, Boeing's vice president for exploration systems, were originally scheduled to be at the post-landing press conference, but decided to defer to NASA. Both addressed the flight controllers after the safe touchdown.
More post-landing photos of Starliner (credit: NASA/Aubrey Gemignani), including one showing Starliner-1 crewmates Scott Tingle and Mike Fincke looking into the capsule.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
We filmed the Boeing Starliner undocking before its final journey to Earth from our 4K camera payload on the International Space Station. This video was captured during a private test of our livestream — we look forward to sharing future missions with the public once we start operations! Livestream launching September 2024.
Neil Aldrin Member
Posts: 88 From: Registered: Feb 2010
posted 09-07-2024 11:10 AM
Why did NASA choose to return the unmanned Starliner capsule at night? Was it necessary to do so, or just a choice (desert heat?)?
It seems like a daytime return would have been easier for the working recovery crews.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-07-2024 11:19 AM
The night landing had a lower chance of strong winds, which are not only an issue for the crew capsule, but for the recovery of the drogue and main chutes.
They also don't want the course sand at White Sands Space Harbor to be blown against the capsule or the recovery team members.
OV-105 Member
Posts: 918 From: Ridgecrest, CA Registered: Sep 2000
posted 09-07-2024 01:08 PM
How good are they at predicting where the spacecraft will land? Is Edwards an option with Roger’s dry lake or any of the others that are in the area?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-07-2024 01:19 PM
Steve Stich described last night's touchdown as a "bull's-eye landing."
Starliner has four landing sites, of which Edwards is one. The other three are White Sands Space Harbor in New Mexico (primary) and backups in Willcox, Arizona and at the Dugway Proving Ground in Utah.
SpaceAholic Member
Posts: 5394 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-07-2024 02:52 PM
Not the best shot but a view from our South Eastern Arizona perch as the vehicle just transited the Baja penn (foreground lights are from the border wall):
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-13-2024 01:14 PM
NASA video
Live from the International Space Station, NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams discuss their ongoing mission and answer questions from the media.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1140 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 09-13-2024 05:35 PM
Odd how both astronauts toed the line in light of the neverending Starliner saga.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 53135 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-13-2024 05:44 PM
Why do you assume they aren't sharing what they actually think? Wilmore, in particular, was clear that the issues with Starliner are a lot more nuanced than what the public assumes they are, and Williams again expressed her desire from even before CFT to serve another long-duration stay on the ISS.
The "never-ending saga" seems to be one of misunderstand and misinformation. Starliner landed safely, engineering panels and fixes are already at work in preparation for the next mission and both NASA and Boeing have committed to flying astronauts on Starliner again.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1140 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 09-13-2024 06:30 PM
All concerned had "go fever" and paid the price. But no-one dare admit it.
posted 09-04-2024 01:19 PM
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