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Author
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Topic: [Discuss] Virgin's SpaceShipTwo VSS Enterprise
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Michael Davis
Member Posts: 528
From: Houston, Texas
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 11-09-2014 01:58 PM
   
In my long ago skydiving days, we used an Automatic Activation Device (AAD) using what amounted to a small caliber shell to deploy the reserve chute if the decent rate was too fast. Is that what was involved here? Or was there more sophisticated technology accounting for Siebold's survival from a 10 mile unconscious parachute jump? |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 11-09-2014 05:21 PM
Does anyone know if there is a mock-up of SpaceShipTwo's cockpit or a procedural trainer like Apollo? quote:
Originally posted by Michael Davis:
Is that what was involved here?
Mike, it was more like an F-1B automatic opener, BA-18, BA-20 backpacks. |
cycleroadie
Member Posts: 452
From: Apalachin, NY USA
Registered: May 2011
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posted 11-09-2014 07:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
No, it is not exploring. This is just a transportation vehicle development program.
This is an experimental program in my mind. New technologies in the feathering system and propulsion make it so. People often refer the shuttle as always being an experimental vehicle, right through its 135th flight, this would be as much, if not more of one. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-10-2014 08:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cycleroadie:
This is an experimental program in my mind. New technologies in the feathering system and propulsion make it so.
If this is an experimental programme as you claim, then why are Virgin Galactic taking such liberties with their 'experimental' procedures. The widow of one of those killed in the nitrous oxide tank explosion is extremely critical of both companies involved, citing the fact that her husband was protected only by a chain link fence when the tank blew up and that the man responsible for health and safety within the organisation resigned and has yet to give his reasons for doing so. To this can be added this recent tragidy. How can a responsible outfit send two men to the edge of space, using an extremely volatile, untested fuel without the protection of a full pressure suit and in an "experimental" craft?
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-10-2014 08:51 AM
The engine was put through a ground test program before being cleared for firing in flight. And the engine didn't fail.Scaled Composites, now a division of Northrop Grumman, has been designing, building and flight testing experimental aircraft since 1982. In addition to SpaceShipOne and SpaceShipTwo, Scaled has been behind the Voyager, Global Flyer, VariEze and Beechcraft Starship, among many other craft. This is not a fly by night operation (no pun intended), and their record stands as a testament that they sort of know what they are doing. Accidents happen. That doesn't negate the experimental nature of spaceflight or the skill of the organizations behind the spacecraft. |
dabolton
Member Posts: 419
From: Seneca, IL, US
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 11-10-2014 10:34 AM
All of these commercial companies are living on the bleeding edge of technology. But that's where advances are made, sticking your nose out. Someone has to undertake the risk. As they say in bull fighting however; sometimes the bull wins. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-10-2014 12:12 PM
A very skilful answer Robert that carefully avoids answering the points I made.From your reply I infer that you think it acceptable for a second(?) test flight to the edge of space be made without pressure suits or some other adequate protection for the crew? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-10-2014 12:27 PM
I think that Scaled Composites and its test pilots understand the risks involved and can adequately judge what type of crew equipment is needed. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 11-10-2014 03:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge
How can a responsible outfit send two men to the edge of space, using an extremely volatile, untested fuel without the protection of a full pressure suit and in an "experimental" craft?
The fuel is not "extremely volatile and untested" The accident that occurred on the ground would not happen in flight. The conditions experienced on the ground can not be created in flight. A pressure suit would not have saved the other crew member. So your points aren't valid. |
dabolton
Member Posts: 419
From: Seneca, IL, US
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 11-10-2014 03:35 PM
Do we know for sure that a pressure suit would not have provided Alsbury enough time to detach himself?
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star61
Member Posts: 294
From: Bristol UK
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 11-10-2014 05:10 PM
I am somewhat bemused by some of the criticism on here. It may be noted that the schedule for the first commercial flight has slipped by years, in spite of Richard Branson's enthusiastic and optimistic public utterings. Surely, this is an indication of just how seriously they are taking the testing and safety aspects of the whole system. And even then, Branson himself has consistantly stated they will fly only when it is safe to do so. A loss of life is always a terrible thing and those closest will always be inconsolable. But I remember Roger Chaffee's father in an interview, I think at Roger's funeral, saying "the price of progress comes high sometimes, but Roger would want them to carry on." Probably paraphrased slightly, but the understanding was there. We investigate the circumstance... we learn... we move on. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-11-2014 01:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
A pressure suit would not have saved the other crew member.
So your points aren't valid.
Why not? The fact that, in your opinion, a pressure suit would not have saved the other crew member in this instance is beside the point. The point is why were a crew on an experimental flight sent up without the benefit of suits that in other circumstances might have saved their lives? |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 11-11-2014 07:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
The point is why were a crew on an experimental flight sent up without the benefit of suits that in other circumstances might have saved their lives?
Because, much like parachutes for airliner passengers, they would have little utility.
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moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-11-2014 07:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
Because, much like parachutes for airliner passengers, they would have little utility.
I fail to see the connection or the thought process that produced this statement. Maybe it's just that I'm old fashioned and believe that pilots testing and developing new craft, be they aircraft or space planes, having evaluated all the risks still deserve that extra insurance that in this case a pressure suit would have provided. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-11-2014 08:11 AM
I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that the team at Scaled, including the test pilots, evaluated the use of pressure suits at some point in SpaceShipTwo's development and, for reasons we're not privy to, decided against them.Trying to second guess their judgement, without knowing why they made the decision to forgo the suits, is conjectural, at best. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-11-2014 09:56 AM
I think its safe to assume that many residual passengers will be asking for a pressure suit! No doubt Branson can use it for further marketing. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-11-2014 09:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I think it is a pretty safe bet to say that the team at Scaled, including the test pilots, evaluated the use of pressure suits at some point in SpaceShipTwo's development and, for reasons we're not privy to, decided against them.
As you said Robert - it's purely conjectural. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-11-2014 10:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
I think its safe to assume that many residual passengers will be asking for a pressure suit!
As someone who still intends to fly on SpaceShipTwo, I don't want a pressure suit. It's unnecessary. It won't stop my death in any number of scenarios and it will hamper my ability to move around the cabin for the short time we're in microgravity. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 11-11-2014 12:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
...that extra insurance that in this case a pressure suit would have provided.
The little insurance is outweighed by the additional risks and complexity of the suits. |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2121
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 11-11-2014 03:09 PM
I think the addition of a full pressure suit for passengers may even cause cancellations in bookings if it was to happen. Many people have trouble coping with the confined feeling wearing enclosed suits and they would need to be trained in its use before flight. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-12-2014 01:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
The little insurance is outweighed by the additional risks and complexity of the suits.
Just as well NASA ignored this for its X-15 pilots. And of course, by your reasoning Grissom would have been in less danger of drowning if he hadn't been wearing a pressure suit on Liberty Bell 7, quite obviously an additional risk caused by the suit's complexity.Let's clear up one thing — I'm not advocating pressure suits for future passengers on SS2, but do query why they weren't used by the pilots on the proving flights. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 11-12-2014 06:05 AM
I can understand the "inconvenience" aspects but it would be interesting to see how much disclosure of the risk is actually made to passengers. Is it: "suborbital spaceflight has its hazards", or more explicit: "a non-catastrophic leak in the cabin could lead to hypoxia, decompression sickness, boiling of body fluids, etc"?U-2 pilots, typically flying at 70,000ft, wear full pressure suits despite being in a partially pressurised cockpit. At the end of the day I guess its a case of "Caveat Volucer" - let the flier beware - given that this is (so far) unregulated and a private venture. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-12-2014 11:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gliderpilotuk:
...this is (so far) unregulated
The FAA has published regulations for commercial spaceflight operators, which includes having to explain the risks of the flights to passengers. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 11-12-2014 01:16 PM
The NTSB has released an update on the investigation: - The on-scene portion of the investigation into the crash of Virgin Galactic SpaceShipTwo, a test flight conducted by Scaled Composites, has concluded and all NTSB investigators have returned to Washington, DC.
- The SpaceShipTwo wreckage has been recovered and is being stored in a secure location for follow-on examination.
- The NTSB operations and human performance investigators interviewed the surviving pilot on Friday. According to the pilot, he was unaware that the feather system had been unlocked early by the copilot. His description of the vehicle motion was consistent with other data sources in the investigation. He stated that he was extracted from the vehicle as a result of the break-up sequence and unbuckled from his seat at some point before the parachute deployed automatically.
- Recorded information from telemetry, non-volatile memory, and videos are being processed and validated to assist the investigative groups.
- An investigative group to further evaluate the vehicle and ground based videos will convene next week at the NTSB Recorders Laboratory in Washington, D.C.
- The systems group continues to review available data for the vehicle's systems (flight controls, displays, environmental control, etc.). The group is also reviewing design data for the feather system components and the systems safety documentation.
- The vehicle performance group continues to examine the aerodynamic and inertial forces that acted on the vehicle during the launch.
The investigation is ongoing. Any future updates will be issued as events warrant. |
p51
Member Posts: 1642
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 11-12-2014 04:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Behling:
The little insurance is outweighed by the additional risks and complexity of the suits.
Not to mention the cost. They couldn't possibly stock every potential size for passengers in pressure suits. Custom-made pressure suits would be amazingly expensive and what would anyone do with it after the one use? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-12-2014 07:17 PM
Every person who flies on Soyuz is provided with a custom pressure (Sokol) suit. A number of the privately-funded spaceflight participants have chosen to purchase theirs after the flight as a memento (or, as in the case of Dennis Tito, to donate to a museum).Pressure suit availability is not as much an issue as are the concerns using them. |
Paul78zephyr
Member Posts: 675
From: Hudson, MA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 11-14-2014 07:25 AM
Please explain why the average American taxpayer that will NEVER get to fly on this 'private' thing is subsidizing its development? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-14-2014 07:37 AM
To which subsidies are you referring? Spaceport America has been subsidized by New Mexico, for example, for the influx of local jobs it is anticipated it will create.In general though, the argument that the "average" taxpayer may never use something is a red herring. The average taxpayer will never control the Hubble Space Telescope, or live on the International Space Station, or for that matter, drive on a majority of the roads in the United States, but that doesn't mean that public funds are being misspent. |
Headshot
Member Posts: 864
From: Vancouver, WA, USA
Registered: Feb 2012
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posted 11-14-2014 08:21 AM
Does Virgin Galactic have to pay fees for whatever certification the FAA requires? |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-14-2014 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
The average taxpayer will never control the Hubble Space Telescope, or live on the International Space Station, or for that matter, drive on a majority of the roads in the United States, but that doesn't mean that public funds are being misspent.
Fine examples Robert. However, they are all national governmental ventures and even though the general public might not directly benefit from them, those elected have decreed that they should be funded from the public purse to further national interests. Virgin Galactic is a private enterprise and as such should not receive federal funding, if in fact it does. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-14-2014 02:21 PM
Many private businesses receive government subsidies for a good number of (good) reasons, including advancing new technologies and emerging industries, which in turn bolsters the U.S. economy and keeps the nation at the forefront of world. I cannot find (though I have not done an exhaustive search) reference to Virgin Galactic receiving subsidies, but if they do, it would be helpful to find out the details before judging them as outright wrong. |
NukeGuy
Member Posts: 55
From: Irvine, CA USA
Registered: May 2014
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posted 11-16-2014 08:13 PM
I understand that the new engine was required because of the inevitable weight growth of SpaceShipTwo. Including pressure suits and whatever support equipment they require would have added additional weight. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2454
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 11-18-2014 08:28 AM
I'm open to correction but my understanding is that the intention is (was) that the passengers were not going to wear pressure suits.Again let me remind people that my original query about pressure suits concerned only the crews flying the development flights. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 11-18-2014 08:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Paul78zephyr:
Please explain why the average American taxpayer that will NEVER get to fly on this 'private' thing is subsidizing its development?
Who says US tax dollars are subsidizing it? |
328KF
Member Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 11-18-2014 02:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
the intention is (was) that the passengers were not going to wear pressure suits.
I haven't ever seen where Scaled or VG ever publicly stated a position in this. However, the early conceptual animations from VG showed passengers wearing rather abstract tight-fitting suits with visors. Several companies are currently developing lightweight pressure suits for commercial applications. We all know that on the SS1 and recent SS2 test flights, the pilots did not wear suits. What drove this decision is anyone's guess right now. They are somewhat heavy, bulky, and involve additional complexities such as ground support equipment and onboard systems to operate them. With even the rudimentary bailout capability currently available, additional oxygen bottles are required. Both spaceship designs lack a real environmental control system. It's essentially a corked bottle that carries surface air with it. This saves a lot of weight too. Couple these issues with the fact that they had a known problem with the required thrust in the motor, and maybe we can surmise the answer. It remains to be seen if a pressure suit would have benefited Alsbury. This was essentially a non-survivable accident in which one pilot, through a series of events, did survive. When the NTSB is done, they will provide a comprehensive list of recommendations. Some will be good, and some will be added simply because the Board has on-going agendas that it creates ways to fit into every accident. It will be interesting to see if and how they address this issue of pressure suits for commercial passengers. |
dabolton
Member Posts: 419
From: Seneca, IL, US
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 03-05-2015 09:07 PM
Have there been any updates on the condition of Pete Siebold? Has he returned to work at Scaled Composites? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-10-2015 07:42 AM
I haven't seen an update on Peter Siebold's status. He flies for Scaled Composites, which going forward won't be involved in the tests of SpaceShipTwo (though it was reported that Scaled will remain connected in some way to Virgin Galactic's plans). Speaking of plans, Richard Branson told Bloomberg that last year's accident will delay their start of operations by about a year. "There is going to be about a one-year delay," billionaire owner Richard Branson said in a Bloomberg Television interview. The team for the space-tourism venture is working "day and night" on a replacement craft, he said. "They're confident that they're back on track." |
dom
Member Posts: 855
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 05-30-2015 10:17 AM
The BBC television program Newsnight recently ran a 10 minute feature on Virgin Galactic that included interviews with several potential passengers. The general feeling I got was that they were now very skeptical it would ever fly but were still reluctant to get their deposits back because it meant giving-up any chance (however slim) of making it into space. Here's a short write-up of the broadcast on the BBC website. |
gliderpilotuk
Member Posts: 3398
From: London, UK
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 05-31-2015 11:46 AM
Virgin have spent $600m already? Sheesh!You're probably better off placing your deposit on the lottery and hoping to win enough to fly on Soyuz.  I feel sorry for Rutan, whose outstanding achievements in the field of aircraft technology have been tarnished by the urgency to fulfill a commercial fantasy. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-31-2015 12:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by dom:
The general feeling I got was that they were now very skeptical it would ever fly...
Keep in mind, Virgin Galactic has more than 700 customers. The BBC spoke with two. Not exactly a statistically relevant sampling. |
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