posted 03-10-2015 08:07 PM
According to Wikipedia, Brightman is worth $56 million and is spending $51 million of her own money on this spaceflight. I would think her interest is genuine. If she's able to pay her way and meets all other requirements for the flight, then so be it.
gliderpilotuk Member
Posts: 3398 From: London, UK Registered: Feb 2002
posted 03-11-2015 04:26 AM
quote:Originally posted by dom: What do you Brits think of Brightman "up-staging" Peake's mission?
I'm with you Dom. I have zero interest in following her "vanity trip" as you succinctly put it. I'm not so concerned about her upstaging Peake - people with a real interest in space will follow his mission, not hers, regardless.
To me this is just another outcome of the "look at me I'm a celebrity" culture, encouraged by the media and luxuriated in by B and C listers. The platitudes of her press conference speak volumes:
"I hope I can encourage others to take inspiration from my journey, both to chase down their own dreams and to help fulfill important global objectives. I have searched for ways to engage people via partners, who already operate a number of programs that have a global presence which positively impact individuals." WHAT?
If - and it's a big "if" - Virgin Galactic ever start operations we will be bombarded with more of this "inspirational" chatter.
johntosullivan Member
Posts: 162 From: Cork, Cork, Ireland Registered: Oct 2005
posted 03-11-2015 05:18 AM
I think it is upstaging Peakes's mission and it is a pity that the Russians could not have been persuaded to postpone the tourism trip until after Peake's. On the other hand I imagine scheduling missions is an intricate task with changes introducing a domino effect. So it may have been impossible.
(Would it not have been even better PR if Tim Peake had been able to welcome Sarah Brightman to the station DURING his Principia mission. A fine mix of science and art etc. etc.)
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-11-2015 08:49 AM
There's only one rule to following celebrities on TV or the internet — you can always turn it off! I think, as I stated before, if you have your own money, you can spend it as you please - even going off into space. I think pointing the finger at Brightman is a little mean-spirited, and begs the question: who determines who is 'vain' enough (or not) to go into space or any adventure? If you don't have a healthy ego-astronaut or civilian — a lot of things wouldn't get done.
As for people eventually climbing aboard a Virgin Galactic or other spaceship for their own projects — vain or otherwise — it's a commercial venture. As long as they pay their own way, it's no different than booking a British Airways flight on the Concorde if you wanted to go to New York or London in time for dinner.
And who is responsible for upstaging Peake? No one really; I would suggest it's a happy coincidence that two Britons will go into space in 2015; besides, it's ladies first.
I'm sure a lot of people in the NASA Astronaut Office rolled their eyes too when confronted with the prospect of flying with a teacher, journalist or some other 'civilian' — Jake Garn and Bill Nelson among them.
gliderpilotuk Member
Posts: 3398 From: London, UK Registered: Feb 2002
posted 03-11-2015 10:23 AM
Ah, the old "switch it off if you don't like it" mantra.
As far as I'm concerned if you've got money to burn and you can't think of a better cause to spend it on (than yourself), you can do whatever you like. Just don't try to justify it with platitudes about the greater good.
This is about as much about "adventure" or pushing the boundaries as me taking a flight in a MiG-25 to 80,000 feet and claiming that it will inspire others! Tosh.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-11-2015 11:45 AM
Well, if it does inspire some young girls to get into science or space — or even singing — so much the better! Don't get too bent out of shape; spaceflight can be a pleasant or unforgiving experience depending on the person or circumstances, so you never know what will happen — that's the 'adventure' part of the equation.
I certainly didn't see this level of negative opinion on a civilian Soyuz ride when Richard Garriott, Charles Simonyi or even Anousheh Ansari went up. I guess it depends on the publicity — or lack thereof — surrounding the passenger. And one's musical tastes.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-11-2015 11:55 AM
Inspiration can be inherent in an activity, or it can be fostered because of it.
Because Mark Shuttleworth flew, every grade school student in South Africa got to see space hardware and meet someone who has been to space during his post-flight tour. Because Greg Olsen and Charles Simonyi flew, there are now Soyuz TMA spacecraft on display in the United States (the only such exhibits).
Because Richard Garriott flew, the tremendous online gaming community learned about the space station. Because Anousheh Ansari flew, young women in Iran had a new positive role model.
Because Guy Laliberté flew, a worldwide audience was educated about the need for clean water. And because Dennis Tito flew, the idea of space tourism has gone from a distant to much more near future reality.
Sarah Brightman will inspire others; she will inspire the children taking part in the Challenger Center's STEAM challenge and may inspire other artists to consider how to incorporate spaceflight into their own works.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-11-2015 02:28 PM
quote:Originally posted by onesmallstep: I certainly didn't see this level of negative opinion on a civilian Soyuz ride when Richard Garriott, Charles Simonyi or even Anousheh Ansari went up.
Firstly, it's great to see others agree with me - I'm not alone!
Anyway, regarding the above point. Most people respected those space tourists because they at least came from a 'space advocate' or technology background so their flights were really only extensions of their life's work.
Now, instead of Peake's flight saying 'study science, work hard and there's a possible future in space for you', the blanket press coverage for Brightman will just re-inforce the modern celebrity culture mantra of 'make lots of cash and buy yourself into orbit'.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-11-2015 03:32 PM
So in other words, if you're a musician, an artist, or any other type of non-scientific professional, you have no business flying in space. Really?
Fortunately, Tim Peake doesn't seem to be so opposed to Sarah Brightman flying to space.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-11-2015 03:37 PM
Exactly the points I wanted to make, but maybe differently: it's called 'space tourism' not 'space advancement', and they made the 'loads of cash' to spend on their ride, not through Kickstarter (hey, there's an idea). More power to anyone who follows their dream.
Perhaps if they had chosen the Soyuz passenger through a reality TV show, with viewers voting thumbs up or down, that would have sufficed? At least great ratings would have resulted.
Anyway, the last I heard, Guy Laliberte, the Canadian who last flew on a Soyuz as a tourist, was no techno-geek (CEO of Cirque du Soleil and poker player). Maybe if the next fare-paying passenger to ISS has no patch or 'platform,' he/she can just enjoy the view from space — and leave earth's troubles behind.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-11-2015 03:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by onesmallstep: ...it's called 'space tourism'
Just a point, but no one actually involved in the flights calls it space tourism. It's a misnomer.
What Virgin Galactic and XCOR Aerospace are trying to establish is space tourism.
There is no difference between Soyeon Yi flying to the International Space Station on behalf of her country and Sarah Brightman flying on behalf of herself, other than who pays the bill.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-11-2015 04:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: So in other words, if you're a musician, an artist, or any other type of non-scientific professional, you have no business flying in space. Really?
My point is she has absolutely no God-given right being on the ISS full-stop. All our tax dollars/euros/pounds are going into this incredible outpost in orbit and this minor celebrity - has anyone actually listen to her shallow, one-dimensional utterings about the mission? I don't hold out on any profound opinions of spaceflight from her - is now taking the valuable place of a professional astronaut because the Russians need her €50 million etc.
As regards Astronaut Tim Peake, he's just being terribly British about it and is probably putting a brave face on it. He's already acting as a 'warm-up man' for her!
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-11-2015 04:32 PM
So in other words, if she was a singer you actually liked to listen to, you'd have no problem?
Brightman has right to the seat because the seat was available. The seat was available because Scott Kelly's and Mikhail Kornienko's yearlong mission requires a taxi crew to swap out their Soyuz spacecraft. Only one trained cosmonaut is required to pilot the Soyuz TMA-M. Brightman's and Mogensen's flights are a bonus.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-11-2015 04:38 PM
I actually think her singing is okay, so it's not a music criticism. I wouldn't want Bono going to the ISS either!
You probably don't realise her slightly 'naffe' reputation in the UK. She is seen as a Z-grade celebrity. Some of the reaction in Britain has been of the "you won't believe who is going into space" variety.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-11-2015 04:45 PM
I get that; the reaction was the same to Lance Bass (who never really was going to space, but a lot of people actually thought he was).
But it's like Sheldon complaining about Howard going to space. Ultimately, Sheldon admitted he was jealous of Howard going...
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member
Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
posted 03-11-2015 07:58 PM
Olsen spends/spent many days out of the year visiting schools and talking to students. He's repeatedly emphasized that what got him into space was not the amount of money spent, but his dedication and perseverance.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-12-2015 08:41 AM
I believe all "guests" aboard Soyuz passenger flights are housed in the Russian-built modules, so they are technically 'invited' to join activities in the other sections of ISS. That means they consume mainly Russian-supplied food (borscht or a menu tailored to their tastes). So Brightman will be inside Russian Federation territory for most of her trip (hands off the purge valve!). And she probably will have to relieve herself in the Russian loo, too.
As for the state in commercial manned spaceflight today; we are probably in the same condition aviation and commercial airline travel was in the 1920s — just learning to walk after crawling along with the flights by the Wrights, Curtiss, Bleriot and the other pioneers. Growing pains, yes, but things seldom turn out to be 'pure' or noble in any commercial endeavor.
And who determines who goes on board ISS? Well, I believe the agreements between the ISS partners stipulate who can and can't. So it's bureaucrats, as usual, who give out the rights, not the Almighty. Again, don't get too bent out of shape: if the US, ESA or other partners' funding for ISS dries up, I'm sure somebody will step in and slap a logo on the side and declare it the first paying hotel in space. The more capitalism, the better. There may be many colored flags on the ESA logo, but only one counts: green. No bucks (or rubles, pounds sterling etc.) no Buck Rogers, unfortunately.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1042 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 03-12-2015 01:35 PM
Never have I read such narrow-minded posts as I have regarding Ms Brightman's planned visit to the ISS.
At least she's paying like most other space flight participants before her. And so what if it's a "vanity trip" - no different to John Glenn's 1998 shuttle joyride (except that he went up and down at U.S. taxpayer expense).
This is the 21st century in which space travel is on the verge of becoming widely available. No need to get precious, after all ISS is a highly-visible symbol of human aspiration.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-12-2015 03:07 PM
Are you seriously putting Sarah Brightman and John Glenn on the same level?
If so, what a weird value system we have introduced to spaceflight with these 'seats for cash' missions...
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-12-2015 03:34 PM
The only value system, as I said in my post, is the greenbacks (or euros). As far as equating Glenn and Brightman; well the only similarity is they both will have gone into space. In different eras, different circumstances (don't forget; Col. Glenn was opposed to ANY woman astronaut being selected for spaceflight back in the day).
And who determines that space is some 'sacred' threshold, to be crossed only by deserving and highly capable people? And not paying for the privilege? That's misguided at best, elitism at worst. Did anyone write up exclusionary rules or conditions as to who could climb Everest after Hillary and Tenzing Norgay conquered it in 1953?
If you have the money (and time) you could do it, but tragically too many lives were lost in 1996 in pursuit of climbing the peak. Like spaceflight, it too is fraught with danger. But the decision, and any risks, are up to the individual. Look at the people who didn't cancel their ride after the recent SpaceShipTwo accident. This is, at last check, a free-market world we live in, like it or not.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-12-2015 03:40 PM
I'll qualify what I said — I mean a weird value system has been introduced that now sees relatively safe seats on tried and tested Souyz/ISS technology (paid for with billions of our tax-payer cash) being given to minor celebrities who have $50 million.
I've no issue with Brightman flying on Virgin Galactic or Blue Origin or whatever is around in the next few years but I take exception to her flying on the ISS.
It's just wrong in my eyes.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1042 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 03-12-2015 04:20 PM
Glenn's participation on STS-95 was contrived — just like Garn on STS-51D and Nelson on STS-61C — whereas Brightman is being earnest in her rationale for going.
Absolutely no Nobel winning scientific or medical value came out of flying a 77 year old man for 8 days in microgravity. Most science experiments usually have follow ups for comparative reasons. Why wasn't another geriatric astronaut flown on a subsequent flight?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-12-2015 04:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by dom: I take exception to her flying on the ISS.
Do you also take exception to the flights of Soyeon Yi and Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor? Because there is absolutely no difference between their flights and Brightman's, other than who was paying the bill.
quote:Originally posted by issman1: Absolutely no Nobel winning scientific or medical value came out of flying a 77 year old man for 8 days in microgravity.
No Nobel winning science has come out of flying any astronaut or cosmonaut, for any reason, in the history of human spaceflight. Numerous scientific papers were written based on the results of Glenn's flight, and while I agree his shuttle flight wasn't solely about the science, to suggest no value came of it is simply wrong.
quote:Originally posted by onesmallstep: ...don't forget; Col. Glenn was opposed to ANY woman astronaut being selected for spaceflight back in the day.
This is also incorrect. Glenn wasn't opposed to flying women, but the selection process as set by the government excluded female candidates. Glenn and the other Mercury astronauts had no role in astronaut selection (other than being chosen themselves). Glenn maintains that he would have had no issue if the "Mercury 13" or any other women were selected alongside him, but he wasn't in a position to contradict NASA.
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member
Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
posted 03-12-2015 07:03 PM
For that matter, the US buys seats on the Russian Soyuz, so what's the difference between NASA and Brightman?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-12-2015 07:33 PM
There is a difference between NASA-purchased seats and Brightman's.
NASA astronauts can serve as "left seaters," taking partial command of flying the Soyuz, and NASA's seat purchases include training, logistics and cargo support on Progress.
Brightman can only be a "right seater," training is additional (but required) and any cargo support has to be negotiated under a separate contract.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-13-2015 09:39 AM
True about Glenn's non-role in astronaut selection Robert, but the fate of the women 'candidates' was sealed when higher-ups in NASA decreed to put a stop to any notion of a female flying a solo Mercury flight. Glenn's vocal opinions were just another nail in the coffin for that effort.
Now, flying on a Gemini, with its cramped quarters and alongside a married male astronaut? That would have been an interesting proposition — for the media and the astronaut wives!
As for Glenn, Garn and Nelson; the sentiment of the Astronaut Office on the last two is well-known: a junket disguised as a congressional oversight 'fact-finding' tour. Glenn's flight is another matter; never mind that the science was tacked on to justify it — for pure nostalgia and history (not to mention good press for NASA) it can't be beat. Now I'm just waiting for a slot to open so the last of the TFNGs, Dr. Anna Fisher, can show what a senior can really do up there, too.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-13-2015 01:32 PM
No, I don't take exception to the flights of Soyeon Yi and Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor because these actually involved worthwhile scientific experiments and promoted engineering and science to young people in Malaysia and South Korea. Brightman's flight is all about herself and we are back around to my original observation that she had already managed to steal some attention away from Tim Peake's mission — which was trying to do some of the above.
onesmallstep Member
Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
posted 03-13-2015 02:28 PM
Again, don't point the finger at Brightman; the only "crime" she committed is flying before Peake!
We wouldn't be having this conversation (free publicity for her mission, if anyone cares to troll through cS web links) if the UK had gotten its act together sooner in establishing a space agency and upping its contribution to ISS, which allowed Britain to choose an astronaut for a trip to the space station.
I find nowhere written where you do or don't have to present a platform or mission statement to fly on a paid Soyuz ride to ISS — that's up to the passenger. Like I said before, Laliberte is no engineer or scientist and that should not count against him, or anyone else who follows him.
The point, I think, is to expose spaceflight to as many people OUTSIDE the sciences or engineering, so they can in turn put out projects in their respective fields. If a journalist from Europe (or the US) finally makes it up into space, I can guarantee that byline will be the envy of every reporter down on earth — and a lot more interesting story than the latest cricket score.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1042 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 03-13-2015 03:45 PM
Still unsure how/why anyone would think a soprano could upstage an astronaut.
Did Canadian circus man Guy Laliberte adversely affect Canadian astronaut Robert Thirsk's presence on board the ISS during Expedition 21?
I'm just glad two people from the UK are going to space in the same calendar year.
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 03-13-2015 05:09 PM
Well, let's all agree to disagree on this one...
music_space Member
Posts: 1179 From: Canada Registered: Jul 2001
posted 03-14-2015 01:19 PM
It's a fact that the space station has been created and funded as a scientific facility — a collection of laboratories. Like other such facilities on Earth, a layperson might get an invitation to visit a lab - or even to shoot a music video in a lab. Overnight stays are pretty much out of the question, of course. But the ISS has living amenities.
However, the present situation is consequent to a matter of fact: the transport system presently in place generates extra seats that scientific agencies can't or don't care to hire, hence the opportunity for private customers to use those seats and finance their share of space programs.
One might argue that as long as spaceflight participants are properly trained for safety and preservation of scientific assets, their involvement is worthwhile. Until some private, "touristic" facilities are created.
quote:Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: ...training is additional (but required)
What do you mean exactly by that, Robert?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-14-2015 02:28 PM
Unless the flight contracts have been restructured in the years since I worked at Space Adventures (which is possible), the cost of training is covered an under a separate payment than the flight itself.
With regards to the space station as a laboratory, Space Adventures has said that Brightman is undergoing training to conduct various experiments, including one on the effects of microgravity on the human voice.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-13-2015 12:23 PM
There will be no more worries about Sarah Brightman upstaging Tim Peake, or any other astronaut, as he she is no longer flying.
Sarah Brightman announced today that she is postponing her plans to launch aboard the upcoming Soyuz TMA-18M spaceflight mission.
issman1 Member
Posts: 1042 From: UK Registered: Apr 2005
posted 05-13-2015 04:10 PM
Was it the Progress M-27M mishap or has she simply changed her mind on a whim?
mercsim Member
Posts: 219 From: Phoenix, AZ Registered: Feb 2007
posted 05-13-2015 05:07 PM
Isn't there a difference between "no longer flying" and "postponing her plans"? Wouldn't "no longer" fall more under the definition of 'cancel'?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-13-2015 05:15 PM
At this point, she is no longer flying. Until another yearlong mission is announced, or something else changes, there are no more short-stay taxi flights, so there is no future seat for her to fill (again, at this point).
Could that change in the future? Sure. But as of now, she is no longer flying.
cspg Member
Posts: 6210 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 05-13-2015 05:16 PM
And who truly cared about all this in the first place (someone has to be the devil's advocate)?
dom Member
Posts: 855 From: Registered: Aug 2001
posted 05-13-2015 05:36 PM
As predicted by me back in March. I hate to say it (not really) but I told you so!
Astro Rich Member
Posts: 133 From: Huntsville, Alabama Registered: Feb 2014
posted 05-13-2015 07:32 PM
So who will fill that seat now?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42988 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-13-2015 07:49 PM
The presumption is Satoshi Takamatsu, who has trained as Brightman's back-up. But that's just a presumption; Roscosmos has yet to say.
(The seat could go unfilled; it could fly with cargo as the Soyuz TMA-M only needs one pilot to fly.)
posted 03-10-2015 08:07 PM
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