Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-13-2011 12:27 PM
Editor's note: In an effort to keep the topic Stratolaunch Systems air launch to orbit focused on status updates, reader's feedback and opinions are directed to this thread.
Please use this topic to discuss Stratolaunch Systems' plan to bring airport-like operations to the launch of commercial and government payloads.
cspg Member
Posts: 6222 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 12-13-2011 01:55 PM
It looks like Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose.
At least they could wait to see if the scaled-down version of this actually works...
Jay Chladek Member
Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
posted 12-13-2011 04:27 PM
Technically, both SpaceShipOne and SpaceShipTwo are the sub-scale test vehicles for this as both verified the dropship approach. At this point, scaling it up is about all one can do to answer the next few questions.
If you are trying to hit orbit, the launch vehicle and carrier aircraft have to be a certain minimum size to carry enough fuel to reach orbital velocity — if we are talking about a payload big enough for revenue generating passengers.
Orbital Sciences has already shown the approach can work in smaller scale with air launched Pegasus and with the amount of investment needed to build a launch vehicle, it will in my opinion be better to go ahead and build it "full size" as opposed to doing yet another sub-scale bird. Since Rutan practically designed the other two systems, he already has plenty of test data on them and their performance.
If this thing is going to be as big as is being hinted at, the stress on that center wing spar is going to be MASSIVE. This aircraft looks like it will ultimately have a 747 wingspan practically. Granted Rutan probably has had a few of those questions answered with his White Knight birds, but the flight tests should be very interesting to watch.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-13-2011 04:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jay Chladek: This aircraft looks like it will ultimately have a 747 wingspan practically.
Not even close — it will be much bigger.
It will use six 747 engines, have a gross weight of more than 1.2 million pounds and a wingspan of more than 380 feet.
By comparison, the Boeing 747 has a wingspan of only 211.5 feet.
SpaceKSCBlog Member
Posts: 119 From: Merritt Island, FL Registered: Nov 2011
posted 12-13-2011 07:26 PM
Even if this never flies, it's just further proof that commercial space is the future.
More and more successful entrepreneurs are investing in commercial space. These people got rich by seeing a money-making opportunity before everyone else.
With so many companies involved in designing commercial space vehicles now, it's clear that a lot of folks see the potential to make money in microgravity.
It won't be the tourism, although that's the common perception. It will be all the medical, biological, industrial and other discoveries that can only happen in microgravity. I think they see the Bigelow space station as the primary destination.
I wish I could see ahead to 2020, because the world is about to change, and change big.
328KF Member
Posts: 1250 From: Registered: Apr 2008
posted 12-13-2011 09:22 PM
I had the same first impression of the aircraft... shades of the Spruce Goose. One thing I found in a live blog from the press conference was a little confusing:
Vulcan CEO — have identified two 747s they will acquire — initial test flight in 2015 time frame and initial launch in 2016 time frame
So are the twin fuselages being custom built or will these be highly modified 747 airframes? Either way, we'll have something to look forward to seeing fly after those last shuttle/SCA flights.
Great to see Rutan and Allen working together on this. I like this kind of commercial space development, where the entrepreneurs see a market, come up with a product to meet the need, and invest their own capital at their own risk.
Given the track record of Scaled though, I wouldn't bet any money on those schedule predictions!
dabolton Member
Posts: 419 From: Seneca, IL, US Registered: Jan 2009
posted 12-13-2011 09:47 PM
Seems like giant size fly-back mothership concept originally envisioned for the space shuttle is coming to fruition. Has a booster that large ever been air-launched before? Can imagine if it fails and comes back to earth fully loaded it would be a quite an explosion.
Jay Chladek Member
Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
posted 12-13-2011 09:48 PM
quote:Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: By comparison, the Boeing 747 has a wingspan of only 211.5 feet.
Okay, so it will have a wingspan almost twice the size of a 747. Good grief, this thing is going to be a MONSTER.
Knowing Rutan, there will likely be some off the shelf technology, but it will be minimal. The cockpit on one of the fuselages looks like it is 747 based and of course the engines will be intended for 747 use as well. But everything else will likely be built from the ground up.
Indeed I think the schedule seems pretty optimistic as well. But hey, you have to start somewhere. The amount of composite construction that has to be done to build this thing though is going to make it the most massive structure ever done this way. Boeing has done something similar with their 787, but this is a different animal and while Scaled specializes in composites, this is going to be a massive undertaking, even for them. Judging by the shapes of the fuselages though, Burt may have taken that into account. Plus, the wing design has no sweep. So it looks like he is taking a building block approach of potentially using standardized sections to help speed construction by not requiring too many specialized molds or shaping.
By the way, anyone else notice that the capsule on the front of the orbital rocket in the CGI video seems to look an awful lot like a Dragon capsule? If so, I wonder if Musk might provide one for testing?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-13-2011 11:57 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jay Chladek: If so, I wonder if Musk might provide one for testing?
As described in the full release, SpaceX is a subcontractor to Stratolaunch Systems, responsible for providing the entire booster, from engines to capsule.
Also, it should be noted that while Rutan is serving on the board of directors for Stratolaunch, he is not "the responsible designer" (his words). He is retired. Beyond the initial concept work, he is leaving the craft's design to those younger then him working at Scaled.
cspg Member
Posts: 6222 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 12-14-2011 01:12 AM
From the press release:
Stratolaunch Systems will bring airport-like operations to the launch of commercial and government payloads and, eventually, human missions.
From what airport when you take into consideration the wingspan?
Rockets fly out over the ocean — where would this thing take off from so as to avoid carrying a fully loaded rocket over populated areas?
cspg Member
Posts: 6222 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 12-14-2011 01:19 AM
quote:Originally posted by SpaceKSCBlog: Even if this never flies, it's just further proof that commercial space is the future.
And we need yet another launcher? I thought that there were already too many launchers chasing too few payloads...
quote:It won't be the tourism, although that's the common perception. It will be all the medical, biological, industrial and other discoveries that can only happen in microgravity.
That's what we've been told in the mid-80s. Remember the Industrial Space Facility? What happened since? Not much. If those entrepreneur, industrial, pharmaceutical, were that interested in zero-gravity (again, I thought that micro-gravity wasn't suitable), what has changed fundamentally since the 80s? The cost per pound to orbit hasn't dropped and as a consequence facilities to perform such research do not exist (or nobody is investing in them).
But it may happen. I'm just not certain that any entrepreneur has the billions to do it alone.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-14-2011 01:54 AM
quote:Originally posted by cspg: From what airport when you take into consideration the wingspan?
The aircraft will be built and based out of the Mojave Air and Space Port in California, and their animation shows use of the Shuttle Landing Facility at Kennedy Space Center.
According to the release though, for takeoff and landing, the carrier aircraft will require a runway 12,000 feet long.
There are a number of airports that can accommodate that requirement, including JFK International Airport in New York, which has the nation's third longest landing strip at 14,572 feet.
SpaceKSCBlog Member
Posts: 119 From: Merritt Island, FL Registered: Nov 2011
posted 12-14-2011 05:31 AM
I think folks are overlooking one factor — it's not just the length of the runway, but also the width.
The wingspan on this bad boy is 385 feet. The SLF is 300 feet. The Stratolaunch CGI showing it launching from the SLF shows the wings extending beyond the edges of the runway.
That's what will truly limit potential sites.
Some other thoughts...
How far can this fly before refueling? If it will be tested in the Mojave, and it needs to fly to KSC, if it can't fly 2,500-3,000 miles non-stop then it needs to stop and refuel somewhere. If there's no adequate runway between the two points, what do they do? Mid-air refueling?
And they better build more than one. Redundancy is the name of the game in this business. They'll need a fleet, which means parking facilities at KSC or wherever.
Jay Chladek Member
Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
posted 12-14-2011 10:14 AM
quote:Originally posted by cspg: And we need yet another launcher? I thought that there were already too many launchers chasing too few payloads...
And none of them have a fully reuseable first stage. If this thing can fly and do what is advertised, it opens up a lot of possibilities. Except for the spacecraft (if Dragon can achieve full reuseability), only items that won't be recovered would be the rocket stage to get it into orbit, the spacecraft's propulsion module and the stabilizer wing. Do that and one might be able to cut operational launch costs in half (assuming the turnaround time for the launch aircraft is relatively quick between launch missions).
Prospero Member
Posts: 94 From: Manchester, UK Registered: Mar 2006
posted 01-15-2012 11:48 AM
I like this design. It's close to what the space shuttle should have been like and the air launch concept makes sense from the point of view that you can prep the launcher at a relatively conventional airport and launch the spacecraft over a handy patch of desert or open see. Obviously the runway will need to be extra wide (and maybe re-enforced) but at least that's a straightforward engineering problem.
Personally I'd love to see a launching site developed for this system in Scotland. Two reasons for this:
It's a great location for launching stuff into polar orbit if there's enough of a market there to justify it.
I'd be able to drive up there and watch the launches!
I really hope this project works out.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 11-27-2012 04:57 PM
FlightGlobal reports that Stratolaunch and SpaceX have parted ways.
"Stratolaunch and SpaceX have amicably agreed to end our contractual relationship because the current launch vehicle design has departed significantly from the Falcon derivative vehicle envisioned by SpaceX and does not fit well with their long-term strategic business model," says Gary Wentz, Stratolaunch CEO, in a 27 November email.
"Moving forward, Stratolaunch has engaged Orbital Sciences Corporation to evaluate and develop alternative solutions with the objective of arriving at a design decision in the early spring timeframe. The other segment contractors will continue to proceed forward in accordance with existing plans since their interfaces have been defined," he adds.
Jay Chladek Member
Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
posted 11-27-2012 05:51 PM
That tells me perhaps they weren't quite hitting their lift targets for stage 1 as an increase of chine area is a way to get a little more wing area without needing a major wing re-design (which might suggest the original design wasn't quite capable of hitting a target orbit). Curious.
Even though it is being downplayed in the report, the loss of SpaceX is a blow given that while OSC has been a player in the commercial space market for longer than Musk's company, they aren't quite as far along with their large cargo capsule and sufficient booster capability as SpaceX. Although, in another sense it does seem like a match made in heaven since OSC started the winged launcher to orbit approach with Pegasus all those years ago. For some people (like Dan Tani who is working for OSC again), this could seem like coming full circle.
cspg Member
Posts: 6222 From: Geneva, Switzerland Registered: May 2006
posted 03-06-2014 08:34 AM
The Soviets had a very similar designed under study in the early 1980s, the Myasishchev M-52 based upon the 3M bomber (M-4 Molot, Bison in NATO terminology). p336 in "Unflown Wings: Soviet/Russian Unrealised Aircraft Projects 1925-2010", Midland Publishing, 2013.
And by the way, what a book! The most fascinating (and sometimes weird) aircraft concepts ever.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-18-2017 07:33 AM
From Paul Allen on Twitter:
.@Stratolaunch turned onto the Mojave Air and Space Port runway center line yesterday and successfully conducted its first taxi test. More to share soon! pic.twitter.com/JEs1grBnK5
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 02-26-2018 02:39 PM
Stratolaunch Systems video
The aircraft development team performed regression testing at the Mojave Air & Space Port on February 24-25, 2018. Ground speeds ranged from 10-40 knots during the test series.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-01-2018 09:57 AM
Jean Floyd, president and CEO of Stratolaunch, provided on Twitter a good graphic to gauge the size of the company's aircraft.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-18-2019 09:03 PM
Stratolaunch says it is discontinuing its programs to develop a new type of rocket engine and a new line of rockets, reports Geekwire.
"Stratolaunch is ending the development of their family of launch vehicles and rocket engine. We are streamlining operations, focusing on the aircraft and our ability to support a demonstration launch of the Northrop Grumman Pegasus XL air-launch vehicle," the company said in an emailed statement. "We are immensely proud of what we have accomplished and look forward to first flight in 2019."
The dramatic turn of events comes three months after Allen's death.
Employees were told today that more than 50 people were being laid off as a result of the streamlining strategy, according to two sources who aren't employed by Stratolaunch but are familiar with the operation. The sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, told GeekWire that about 20 employees were staying on to work on the plane and prepare for the flight test.
OV-105 Member
Posts: 819 From: Ridgecrest, CA Registered: Sep 2000
posted 04-13-2019 08:03 AM
Stratolaunch will be conducting a test flight this morning it sounds like. Extra KCFD engine, rescue helicopter and Mercy Air 14 are all on they way for a commuter standby this morning.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 04-13-2019 10:22 AM
Stratolaunch Systems video
Stratolaunch Systems Corporation, successfully completed the first flight of the world's largest all-composite aircraft, the Stratolaunch. With a dual fuselage design and wingspan greater than the length of an the Stratolaunch aircraft took flight at 0658 PDT on April 13, 2019 from the Mojave Air & Space Port. Achieving a maximum speed of 189 miles per hour, the plane flew for 2.5 hours over the Mojave Desert at altitudes up to 17,000 feet. As part of the initial flight, the pilots evaluated aircraft performance and handling qualities before landing successfully back at the Mojave Air and Space Port.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-31-2019 04:23 PM
quote:Originally posted by cspg: It looks like Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose.
Stratolaunch appears to be repeating Spruce Goose history. From Reuters:
Stratolaunch Systems Corporation, the space company founded by late billionaire and Microsoft Corp co-founder Paul Allen, is closing operations, cutting short ambitious plans to challenge traditional aerospace companies in a new "space race," four people familiar with the matter said on Friday...
Vulcan has been exploring a possible sale of Stratolaunch's assets and intellectual property, according to one of the four sources and also a fifth person.
A representative of Stratolaunch Systems Corp declined to comment. Efforts to reach Vulcan Inc for comment were not successful. The four persons familiar with the matter all spoke on condition of anonymity, as did the fifth source, citing the confidential nature of the matter.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
Stratolaunch LLC has transitioned ownership and is continuing regular operations. Our near-term launch vehicle development strategy focuses on providing customizable, reusable, and affordable rocket-powered testbed vehicles and associated flight services.
As we continue on our mission, Stratolaunch will bring the carrier aircraft test and operations program fully in-house. We thank Vulcan Inc. and Scaled Composites for turning an ambitious idea into a flight-proven aircraft.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-11-2019 01:13 PM
The new owner of Stratolaunch is billionaire Steve Feinberg, reports GeekWire.
...business filings obtained by GeekWire show the new owner to be Cerberus Capital Management, a controversial private equity firm specializing in distressed companies...
Neither Stratolaunch nor Cerberus would confirm the actual purchase price of the company to GeekWire. Filings with regulators in California and Washington show that a new LLC business, also called Stratolaunch, was incorporated in late October, at Stratolaunch's existing offices in Seattle and Mojave, Calif. The new Stratolaunch's executive vice president is named as Michael Palmer, Cerberus' managing director.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43504 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 04-01-2020 11:43 AM
Stratolaunch has pivoted from space launch to hypersonics testing.
Why Hypersonic Testbeds?
We believe that innovative flight research and testing programs are key to enabling our nation to develop emerging hypersonic technologies into operational systems.
Routine Access to the Hypersonic Flight Environment
Our system is designed around the concept of iterative flight testing, enabling us to minimize your overall exposure to risk when it comes to mission cost, deployment schedule and technology investment.
"Our hypersonic testbeds will serve as a catalyst in sparking a renaissance in hypersonic technologies for our government, the commercial sector, and academia," said W Jean Floyd, Stratolaunch CEO.
Talon-A is a fully reusable, autonomous, liquid rocket-powered Mach 6-class hypersonic vehicle with a length of 28 feet (8.5 m), wingspan of 11.3 feet (3.4 m), and a launch weight of approximately 6,000 pounds (2,722 Kg). The Talon-A will conduct over 1-minute of hypersonic flight testing, and glide back for an autonomous, horizontal landing on a conventional runway. The vehicle will also be capable of autonomous take-off, under its own power, via a conventional runway.
posted 12-13-2011 12:27 PM
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