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Author
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Topic: Genesis has impacted the desert floor !
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nasamad
Member Posts: 1521
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted September 08, 2004 12:15 PM
   
Watching live, 17.00 GMT, NASA's Genesis sample return mission has impacted the desert floor with no sign of either drogue or parafoil deployment. Sad day for many dedicated people. Adam IP: Logged |
DavidH
Member Posts: 1154
From: Huntsville, AL, USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted September 08, 2004 12:22 PM
http://www1.nasa.gov/mission_pages/genesis/main/index.html ------------------
http://allthese worlds.hatbag.net
"America's challenge of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow." - Commander Eugene Cernan, Apollo 17 Mission, 11 December 1972 IP: Logged |
Spacebug
Member Posts: 71
From: Yacolt WA USA
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted September 08, 2004 12:40 PM
Very sad loss indeed. IP: Logged |
Rodina
Member Posts: 824
From: Pleasant Hill, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted September 08, 2004 12:53 PM
Damn.IP: Logged |
FFrench
Member Posts: 2230
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 01:03 PM
There is still some hope... right now the aeroshell looks like it might still be intact. NASA press conference in less than an hour should hopefully tell us.FF IP: Logged |
FFrench
Member Posts: 2230
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 01:18 PM
Maybe not... contrary to the first reports, latest images show a split - but perhaps some samples may be saved.FF IP: Logged |
nojnj
Member Posts: 397
From: Ft. Thomas KY
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted September 08, 2004 01:21 PM
Very dissappointing. It seems more individuals are remembering NASA's problems a lot longer than its successes. It sure doesn't need the negative publicity. I miss the days when NASA was supported the way it should be.------------------
Evan IP: Logged |
nojnj
Member Posts: 397
From: Ft. Thomas KY
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted September 08, 2004 01:22 PM
great footage on NASA TV showing the descent.IP: Logged |
spaceuk
Member Posts: 2112
From: Staffs,UK
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 02:35 PM
Although it would be a shame if the samples have been 'lost' - though having seen some early tv footage it looks like some may be recoverable.However, the Genesis mission should be viewed a 'success' in that all other aspects of the mission were accomplished including those dramatic loops around the lagrange points and the final entry into earth's atmosphere . Stardust in Jan 2005 can perhaps redeem some of the lost glory. IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 12300
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted September 08, 2004 04:30 PM
I was interested that during the press conference it was said that shovels would be used to dig out the spacecraft. I realize the first and foremost priority for the scientists involved must be to recover what ever science on-board the spacecraft is salvagable, but I wonder how often it is that we get the chance to study an impact crater from an object returning from space unaided. Unfortunately no one asked during the conference (and I couldn't get over to NASA HQ in time) to query if the impact crater itself was going to be documented before its own destruction retrieving the capsule.Another question that came to mind this afternoon: during the conference they said that this scenario (crash landing) was one of the situations they had planned for; I wonder if another had been knowing before reentry began that the parachutes wouldn't deploy and if so, if they would have done anything differently? [This message has been edited by Robert Pearlman (edited September 08, 2004).] IP: Logged |
Rizz
Member Posts: 1041
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 04:43 PM
....maybe another set of chutes?I don't view this as a failure as much as a incomplete mission. Putting things into perspective, the crews and craft performed a phenomenal feat, and should be very proud of the accomplishments achieved. Bravo! IP: Logged |
FFrench
Member Posts: 2230
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 04:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rizz:
I don't view this as a failure as much as a incomplete mission.Putting things into perspective, the crews and craft performed a phenomenal feat, and should be very proud of the accomplishments achieved.
Well put, Rizz. I've just been doing TV interviews about it here at the Science Center - the media usually likes to spin these events as a "disaster / embarrassment for NASA" - and I stressed to them just what you said. Thanks, FF IP: Logged |
Danno
Member Posts: 557
From: Huntington Beach, CA - USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted September 08, 2004 09:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
but I wonder how often it is that we get the chance to study an impact crater from an object returning from space unaided. (edited September 08, 2004).]
Robert, since the spaceship was only traveling ~ 200 mph when it impacted, the crater wouldn't be very interesting. Out at the Kwajalein Missile Range (KMR) they occasionally have land impacts of ICBM re-entry vehicles traveling ~ mach 25 and there are craters aplenty to study. Dan IP: Logged |
Rizz
Member Posts: 1041
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted September 08, 2004 10:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Danno:
Out at the Kwajalein Missile Range (KMR) they occasionally have land impacts of ICBM re-entry vehicles traveling ~ mach 25 and there are craters aplenty to study.Dan
Hey Dan - Are you sure about that? Kwaj is a pretty small island. It is my understanding that most rocket bodies traveling at that speed (Mach 25) burn up upon re-entry and the debris field impact zones are usually in the ocean, away from people. I could be wrong though. Rizz IP: Logged |
Rodina
Member Posts: 824
From: Pleasant Hill, CA
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted September 09, 2004 01:13 AM
There is no way there will ever be a backup parachute on something like this. That's a lot of weight for the chute, the lines, the control and the charge -- all of which can be better used for other stuff.I just can't recall a chute ever failing like this -- unless, maybe, that's what happened to Mars Polar Lander.
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Rizz
Member Posts: 1041
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted September 09, 2004 01:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rodina:
There is no way there will ever be a backup parachute on something like this.
Well, they did the really hard part already - Seems like some sort of a redundant system to insure a soft landing would have been in order. The soviets have got thier version of a 'soft landing' figured out. IP: Logged |
LT Scott Schneeweis
unregistered
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posted September 09, 2004 02:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rizz:
Well, they did the really hard part already -Seems like some sort of a redundant system to insure a soft landing would have been in order. The soviets have got thier version of a 'soft landing' figured out.
......the craft only impacted at 192 MPH even without the chutes opening......thats a tremendous amount of energy already dissipated from the 20K plus miles per hour it was traveling upon reentry by simple atmospheric drag on the capsule....why not a capsule which as an inherent charactoristic of the re-entry vehicle shape, exchanges decent energy for lift (like the ROTON )....such a design could even be snagged by a conventional aircraft .... I am just stunned that in the absence of the drogue and primary chutes, the capsule did not overshoot the target landing site...
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phase pistol
Member Posts: 12
From: Brooklyn NY USA
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted September 09, 2004 04:15 AM
Eerily reminiscent of the SCOOP satellite return in 1969, which caused the tragedy in Piedmont, New Mexico.See Project Wildfire documents for more info on that one.  - Karl [This message has been edited by phase pistol (edited September 09, 2004).] IP: Logged |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 12300
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted September 09, 2004 04:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rodina:
I just can't recall a chute ever failing like this -- unless, maybe, that's what happened to Mars Polar Lander.
When discussing parachute failures, Soyuz 1 comes to mind. The drogue chute deployed but the main chute failed; Komarov deployed the reserve chute but it became tangled with the drogue. Different failure than Genesis of course, but both involving failed chute deployments. IP: Logged |
FFrench
Member Posts: 2230
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted September 09, 2004 11:32 AM
One thing JPL will probably be looking at closely is the Stardust mission, now heading back to Earth and also designed to use a parachute for sample return. It is a slightly different method - hopefully different enough to avoid a repeat - but I am sure they are thinking about possible troubleshoots / contingencies.FF IP: Logged |
Danno
Member Posts: 557
From: Huntington Beach, CA - USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted September 09, 2004 11:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rizz:
Hey Dan -Are you sure about that? Kwaj is a pretty small island. It is my understanding that most rocket bodies traveling at that speed (Mach 25) burn up upon re-entry and the debris field impact zones are usually in the ocean, away from people. I could be wrong though. Rizz
Hey Rizz, Keep in mind that these are re-entry vehicles (RVs) not rocket bodies. They are designed to survive the heat of the atmosphere. Von Braun and his team were using ablative surfaces to develop ICBMs while they were still in White Sands. While Kwajalein is indeed a small islad, it is part of the largest atoll in the world. When RVs are launched towards it from Vandenberg they usually target water impact sites where the airframe is destroyed on impact. But on rare occasions they target one of the islands, Illiginni, which is much smaller than Kwaj.
The nuclear warheads are replaced with depleted uranium to keep the mass properties the same and a non-explosive impact at those speeds has enough kinetic energy to light up the night sky! Anyway, I was watching Genesis wobble to Earth and thought they were lucky it was so light and un-aerodynamic as that is what slowed it down considerably. Dan IP: Logged |
Rizz
Member Posts: 1041
From: Upcountry, Maui, Hawaii
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted September 09, 2004 01:39 PM
I stand corrected - thanks Dan.IP: Logged |
Glint
Member Posts: 468
From: New Windsor, Maryland USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted September 09, 2004 05:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by phase pistol:
Eerily reminiscent of the SCOOP satellite return in 1969, which caused the tragedy in Piedmont, New Mexico.See Project Wildfire documents for more info on that one. - Karl
Karl, when I saw the video of the cracked hull I too was reminded of the Andromeda Strain and thought to myself, "Life, meet Art." Curt
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BLACKARROW
unregistered
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posted September 09, 2004 06:18 PM
Watching the TV coverage of Genesis falling to Earth, I couldn't help wondering if Beagle 2 suffered a similar fate.Of course, there is a big difference: NASA has the wreckage of Genesis to examine for answers. Beagle's fate will probably never be known (at least not in the life-time of anyone reading this!) IP: Logged |
nojnj
Member Posts: 397
From: Ft. Thomas KY
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted September 09, 2004 10:27 PM
I am glad we are a society that still tries to escape the bonds of earth. I would rather be part of a race that at least tried and accomplished much with some setbacks, than not to have tried at all.------------------
Evan IP: Logged |
nojnj
Member Posts: 397
From: Ft. Thomas KY
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted September 10, 2004 07:47 AM
Here's more coverage from astronomy.com
http://www.astronomy.com/default.aspx?c=a&id=2444 ------------------
Evan IP: Logged |
music_space
Member Posts: 426
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted September 11, 2004 10:24 PM
Hi, Phase Pistol,could you lead us to good documentation on Project Wildfire ? ------------------
François Guay
Collector of litterature, notebooks, equipment and memories! IP: Logged |
spaced out
Member Posts: 1360
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted September 12, 2004 04:39 AM
quote:
could you lead us to good documentation on Project Wildfire ?
Most of the documents on that project are still highly classified but here's a link with some details: Classified Documents.  IP: Logged |
