Posts: 905 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 10-14-2018 10:58 PM
Wow Robert, what a great experience you have had.
I am not so sure where to place "First Man" against "Apollo 13" in a list. "Apollo 13" set a high benchmark, and the weightless scenes add a reality that can be compared to scenes the public can find today via ISS footage.
Also, while "Apollo 13" does have many inaccuracies, it manages to capture what I imagine the launch and spaceflight experience would be like. The noise, violence and speed of a Saturn V launch, the claustrophobic interior of the CM and LM and the suspense that of waiting for events to happen, the isolation of the crews and the disconnect that families felt being back on earth.
"First Man" has some incredible props, some highly accurate detail and some great moments, but for me, the scenes dedicated to the actual mission events, launch, stuck thrusters, lunar landings, etc., needed more screen time dedicated to showing such events, and the piloting skills Armstrong brought to these.
While "Apollo 13" shows the delicate touch and skill needed to perform a lunar module docking and extraction, "First Man" seems to be more about slamming controls from stop to stop and showing the astronauts as being along for the ride, rather than part of a crew in control of a mission. (Yes I know they were along for the ride.)
This is a great film, and will become part of my collection when available. I find the different approach "First Man" takes at telling a story compared to "Apollo 13" to be an interesting pathway, and hope more filmmakers undertake such subject matter, but I don't think I am ready to put "First Man" above "Apollo 13" in the hierarchy.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
Sometime in perhaps the not too distant future, a robotic rover, or maybe even an astronaut, will visit a small crater on the moon to answer a mystery inspired by the movie "First Man."
(Spoiler warning: What follows reveals a major detail from Damien Chazelle's film starring Ryan Gosling as Apollo 11 moonwalker Neil Armstrong. If you have not yet seen "First Man," you may want to bookmark this article and return to it later.)
David C Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
posted 10-15-2018 02:02 AM
quote:Originally posted by oly: more about slamming controls from stop to stop
One of several items that verged on the ridiculous. Another favourite was clipping the San Gabriels on approach to Rogers Dry Lake.
I wanted to like it more than I do. It will still find a favoured place in my collection, but no, not above Apollo 13.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-15-2018 11:24 AM
Not to keep citing it, but this is where the Annotated Screenplay really helps understand the decisions that were made. Josh Singer addresses the proximity to the San Gabriels:
In reality it was a field of Joshua trees he struggled to clear, which was no less dangerous, but we felt the mountains better conveyed the potential jeopardy of Neil's straight in approach.
BNorton Member
Posts: 150 From: Registered: Oct 2005
posted 10-15-2018 01:55 PM
Any and every film stands on its own. If one has to read an annotated screenplay to follow or understand, the film is a failure from the start.
I will be the "thumbs down" person. I thought the movie was terrible as did the three others I was with during the October 1st screening. I am no fan of the close in head shots, especially when they were repeated expressions of angst by Janet.
The concerns over the missing US flag on the moon I felt were not unfounded. (It was a quick view, but shouldn't the flag have been between the camera stand and the LEM in the liftoff shot?) And there is the made-up "fairy tale" about Neil on the lunar surface. I would rate the film as one of the worse space race related films made to date. Apollo 13 (a great story told via a great movie) it is not.
That is not to say that there were not some very good shots (and sets). I think the photographer and film editor did a great job in the brief sequence when the astronauts entered the Gemini capsule, vividly showing – and making the viewer feel - the very small space in which they sat. The other well done scene was the closing of the hatch on the Apollo 1 capsule, making an obvious statement that the astronauts had no chance of getting out. (But the flag and logo on the VAB ... come on ... super easy to digitally remove.)
I found that the film was not a friend of NASA or the US space program as a whole, depicting the space program to the uninformed as a series of accidents, disasters, and deaths except for the landing.
I get what the film makers were trying to do: a movie about Neil. (I think it was a major failure.) I am glad Neil's sons are happy with the film. Nevertheless, I would like to believe that Neil, the man who would never ink the space suit flag on his portrait, and a serious engineer, would not be happy with the film.
Gilbert Member
Posts: 1328 From: Carrollton, GA USA Registered: Jan 2003
posted 10-16-2018 08:56 AM
My wife and I saw the film last Friday night. I enjoyed it. She enjoyed it. The couple we were with enjoyed it. I wanted to like it more than I did. It does not surpass Apollo 13 in my list. But I loved every minute of it.
oly Member
Posts: 905 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 10-16-2018 09:45 AM
Here is a great interview with Ryan Gosling on playing Neil Armstrong, and making this movie, including some interesting facts.
fredtrav Member
Posts: 1673 From: Birmingham AL Registered: Aug 2010
posted 10-16-2018 12:39 PM
I saw the movie and loved it. If you go to see it and expect another Apollo 13 or Independence day, or a movie about the Apollo 11 mission you might be disappointed. This was a movie about the First Man, not the First Manned landing. It was a biography of an 8 year period in Armstrong's life. Culminating in him being the first moon walker. It was time of great tragedy for him along with great achievements.
fredtrav Member
Posts: 1673 From: Birmingham AL Registered: Aug 2010
posted 10-16-2018 12:39 PM
I saw the movie and loved it. If you go to see it and expect another "Apollo 13" or "Independence Day," or a movie about the Apollo 11 mission you might be disappointed. This was a movie about the First Man, not the First Manned landing. It was a biography of an 8-year period in Armstrong's life, culminating in him being the first moonwalker. It was a time of great tragedy for him along with great achievements.
David Carey Member
Posts: 782 From: Registered: Mar 2009
posted 10-16-2018 02:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by p51: Why was everything so dirty and used looking? The Gemini scenes especially, it looked like they'd re-used that capsule a dozen times before that mission for how the interior looked.
Haven't seen the movie yet (plan to soon!) but a friend who went commented the same. The grimy look was severe enough that he thought it suggested production with original capsules and spacecraft hardware.
I told him with some certainty that all on-screen hardware was movie prop-works.
Given discussion of John's (Space1) Gemini panels, Robert's comment that "The Gemini was built for the production", and Rick Armstrong's comment up-thread that Apollo 13's (movie) CM was re-used, my answer would seem correct.
To give my friend the definitive take from those involved: Was the dirtied-up look a cinematic choice in set design or was actual vintage spacecraft hardware employed for (some/any) scenes?
space1 Member
Posts: 853 From: Danville, Ohio Registered: Dec 2002
posted 10-16-2018 04:30 PM
Regarding the Gemini panel and exterior, the prop department applied "grime" so that it would not look artificially new. (It's removable, so my panel was not ruined by the treatment.)
I was struck by the coating of junk on the CM and LM windows. I doubt very much that they were anything like that on the mission.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
"First Man" is a movie steeped in even more space history than audiences might be aware.
In addition to ensuring an overall authenticity for the big set pieces and scenes, director Damien Chazelle and his fellow filmmakers also inserted some much more subtle references to the history they were depicting. "First Man" is flush with these hidden details, or "easter eggs," that maybe only eagle-eye space geeks may notice.
Panther494 Member
Posts: 402 From: London UK Registered: Jan 2013
posted 10-16-2018 07:19 PM
Got to see the movie this evening and thoroughly enjoyed it. I went with a friend who has just the usual general public knowledge of spaceflight history and she found it sad but well made.
Ryan Gosling played the part very well and was, I think, a good choice.
Yes we know there are inaccuracies but this is a movie for the general public and made for entertainment.
As mentioned in other posts, I found the dirty, grubby spacecraft interiors strange. The insides of Eagle, especially, were made to look far too used.
The Gemini scene conveyed a very claustrophobic atmosphere and I found myself wishing to see some shots of the launch from outside the capsule.
I will certainly be seeing this again soon and will add it to my collection.
Jonnyed Member
Posts: 396 From: Dumfries, VA, USA Registered: Aug 2014
posted 10-16-2018 07:27 PM
In case folks missed it and are interested, the Washington Post op-ed page this morning included a reflection on how marketing campaigns for movies are increasingly like political skirmishes, detailing how "First Man" is the most recent high profile battle.
David Carey Member
Posts: 782 From: Registered: Mar 2009
posted 10-16-2018 07:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by space1: Regarding the Gemini panel and exterior, the prop department applied "grime" so that it would not look artificially new.
Thanks, John. Interesting to learn the production detail and glad to learn reversible. You do amazing work.
And congratulations to both you and Robert for your involvement.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-17-2018 05:26 AM
Mondo release
'First Man' Original Motion Picture Soundtrack LP
Music by Justin Hurwitz. Front cover illustration by Marc Aspinall. Pressed on 180 Gram Lunar Surface colored vinyl. Also available on 180 Gram Black vinyl. Note: This item is a pre-order. All orders containing this item will not ship until mid-November 2018. $25
On sale Wednesday (Oct. 17) at noon (CT) via mondotees.com
Mondo, in partnership with Back Lot Music, is proud to present the original motion picture soundtrack to Damien Chazelle's film "First Man" on vinyl. The soundtrack features new music from two-time Academy Award-winner Justin Hurwitz, as well as a recording of Leon Bridges performing "Whitey on the Moon," in character as Gil Scott Heron.
On the heels of their six-time Academy Award-winning smash, LA LA LAND, Oscar-winning director Damien Chazelle and star Ryan Gosling re-team for "First Man" - the riveting story behind the manned-mission to the moon, focusing on Neil Armstrong and the decade leading up to the historic Apollo 11 flight. It's visceral and intimate account told from Armstrong's perspective, based on the book by James R. Hansen. The film explores the triumphs and the cost on Armstrong, his family, his colleagues and the nation itself of one of the most dangerous missions in history.
The film's harmonious score features orchestra mixed with vintage electronics, including the Theremin. Regarding that choice of instrumentation, Hurwitz said, "As soon as I found the main theme at the piano, Damien suggested using a Theremin to express that melody throughout the movie. I got one and started learning to play it and loved how emotional and expressive the instrument could be. With its wailing quality, we were able to capture the type of cosmic pain that suited Neil's story."
Featuring original front cover illustration by Marc Aspinall and pressed on 180 Gram Lunar Surface Grey vinyl. Also available on 180 Gram Black vinyl.
Kite Member
Posts: 831 From: Northampton UK Registered: Nov 2009
posted 10-17-2018 03:00 PM
I saw it with my wife yesterday at an IMAX screen in Milton Keynes. Overall we liked the film but felt that the enjoyment of achieving their goal never came through. I realise that Neil Armstrong was the subject but even he appeared excited at the time, which was clear during the historic phone call from the President, but this was not shown.
I agree with some posts on here who felt there was too much shaking, for me during the X-15 and moon landing sequences, but was more acceptable on the Gemini 8 and LLTV ones. Also during the moon landing it would have been nice to see flashes to Mission Control to observe them dealing with the alarms.
I would like to see it again and perhaps may be able to appreciate the work gone into the film more but feel the general public will not be so enthused as they were with "Apollo 13."
Jymp Member
Posts: 22 From: Registered: Jan 2012
posted 10-17-2018 04:32 PM
I've seen the film as well, it sure doesn't surpass "From the Earth to the Moon" or "Apollo 13," or even "The Right Stuff" in my opinion.
One thing sticks out to me is why can't Hollywood (except FTETTM) get the Saturn V roll patterns correct? During the roll out scene the black S-I roll patterns are too high, it's obvious, however during launch and first stage separation they are perfect, the best scene in the whole movie to me.
p51 Member
Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 10-17-2018 04:54 PM
The film was polarizing; no question about that. Taken on the whole, I liked it.
Scrutinized, I can see why some (if not many) space fans didn't. Don't forget, a few space fans hated "Apollo 13" as well, which is considered the gold standard NASA movie by much of the public.
quote:Originally posted by BNorton: If one has to read an annotated screenplay to follow or understand, the film is a failure from the start.
I found that the film was not a friend of NASA or the US space program as a whole, depicting the space program to the uninformed as a series of accidents, disasters, and deaths except for the landing.
Editing these points together for emphasis, I cannot disagree with either of these two points.
The idea of a book explaining the movie sounds so silly as to be a joke gone horribly awry.
And I did also pick up the film's suggestion that the astronauts were just thrown into these capsules with no real idea what they were doing and what would happen next. Frankly, I found that part insulting to the memories of these explorers.
Yes, these are solid points to be made.
rarmstrong Member
Posts: 17 From: Cincinnati, OH USA Registered: Jan 2014
posted 10-17-2018 08:15 PM
My understanding is that the main purpose of the annotated screenplay was not so someone could follow the film (although it might help with that), it was so those who are interested in what was fact and what was changed can learn more, and in the event it was changed, why it was changed. It is a basically a discussion between the screenwriter and book author, with the screenplay as the backdrop.
ea757grrl Member
Posts: 729 From: South Carolina Registered: Jul 2006
posted 10-17-2018 09:48 PM
This is a particularly valuable point, as the book is a chance to learn something about how these things get made. I'm reading this whole discussion as both an amateur spaceflight historian and as a media professional who has taught a little screenwriting, and I thus have some insight into both sides of the argument. And, as the saying goes, it looks different from the inside.
Good screenwriting is already hard enough, but then you throw in the challenge that historical works and dramatic works often have different needs. It's inevitable that things will get compressed, others will get skipped over, and other aspects will get amplified in the name of keeping a story going. As a geek on the hardware I also know that getting heavy with the nuts and bolts will put an average audience to sleep. It's a balancing act, one that's awfully tricky to pull off, and compromises are inevitable. Sometimes they work (see "Apollo 13") and sometimes they don't (see "The Right Stuff," an incredibly glorious film but a disaster so far as accuracy).
It's from that perspective that this annotated screenplay intrigues me as a great learning opportunity. I imagine the dialogue between screenwriter and book author will give some insight into the give-and-take that goes into creating a screenplay that balances history with drama. And even if we don't agree with all of the decisions that were made, I do hope it'll give us an appreciation for the challenges the filmmakers were up against.
oly Member
Posts: 905 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 10-17-2018 10:56 PM
With respect to all who have posted on this subject, there is always going to be a divide between people who want a historically accurate representation of the individual missions and events versus something that provides entertainment to the masses.
This movie publicised that it was trying to tell the Neil Armstrong story, adapted from a book. This brings in an added level of complexity, because there is also the issue of staying accurate to the book, while staying accurate to real life. Add to this the fact that much of this story happened in the air or in space, using expensive equipment that is no longer in service, and it was always going to be a tough challenge.
Does this movie portray who and what Mr. Armstrong was? Does it show what kind of a pilot he was? Does it show his unique skillset and abilities controlling aircraft and spacecraft that gave him the opportunity of standing in the Apollo 11 commander's position?
Does it show his attributes as an engineer? What contributions he made to achieving the success of each program he was involved in?
And does it show who he was as a husband, father and as a person?
I can only deduce from what I have seen and read, having never had the chance to meet or get to know him, so only the people who knew him will ever really know if this movie answers some of these questions.
The people involved in the movie production state that they wanted to provide a POV of what it was like to ride these machines. I think it has done this very well. It provides a far better perspective than possible standing in a museum looking over a rope or through glass and wondering what it would be like in there, or watching real launches in person or on film.
I do not think the movie captures the Neil that can be found on film and in print, but this is probably the hardest single thing to capture. But overall I think it has done a good job of capturing story of Neil Armstrong in what limited time a movie the general public would be willing to sit through, which is a tough job these days.
posted 10-18-2018 07:40 AM
I saw the movie this weekend and waited a few days for it to digest. It certainly did have a poor first weekend at the box office.
This is a good, not a great movie for me. I did very much enjoy the book.
Armstrong's personality is portrayed very well, no doubt about it. Some of the scenes, like the X-15 and Gemini 8 are terrific, the Apollo scenes are not. I agree with many of the criticisms here so I won't repeat them regarding noise, darkness, dirty spacecraft and such.
I just didn't get a sense that the astronauts enjoyed what they did or that it was worthwhile. I got tired of hearing how wasteful Apollo was. Maybe that is the opinion of the people who were instrumental in the production of First Man, I don't know. The ending was a little abrupt as well.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-18-2018 09:34 AM
The Mission Control consoles seen during the Gemini 8 scenes in "First Man" look authentic because they were:
"It was real neat to see them go to this type of a movie about the space race, and what the movie represents," says Jack Graber, SpaceWorks vice president of exhibits and technology. "It was really exciting to see them being highlighted that way."
The Cosmosphere previously purchased and acquired the consoles from Johnson Space Center in Houston where flight controllers directed the historic moon landings. The consoles came from a back support room, not the famous main control room used during the Apollo missions.
It took Graber and three local craftsmen about seven months to get the consoles ready for the movie.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-18-2018 11:54 AM
Tested.com video
Spacesuit replica maker Ryan Nagata brings to the cave several of his spacesuits and spacesuit parts he made for the movie First Man! Adam and Ryan talk about his build of the X-15 suit seen in the film, the technical accuracy achieved by the costume department, and what he learned from making pieces to be filmed for camera.
ejectr Member
Posts: 1751 From: Killingly, CT Registered: Mar 2002
posted 10-18-2018 12:20 PM
Saw it yesterday. The theater had 5 people in it, including my wife and I. This is in Florida, 2 hours from the Cape and within view of the launches.
posted 10-18-2018 01:47 PM
I enjoyed the movie very much, so forgive my nit picking. In the film when he is visiting the crater, I noticed he was not carrying the Hasselblad. But Neil must of carried it, because he took shots of the crater.
GACspaceguy Member
Posts: 2474 From: Guyton, GA Registered: Jan 2006
posted 10-18-2018 02:37 PM
quote:Originally posted by ejectr: The theater had 5 people in it, including my wife and I.
I saw it Monday night while here in Orlando for the annual Business Aviation convention. I was the only one in the theater.
David C Member
Posts: 1014 From: Lausanne Registered: Apr 2012
posted 10-18-2018 03:36 PM
I saw it for a second time on Tuesday in Glendale. There were five of us, and only I stayed for the credits. I liked it more, and less, on second viewing. It really has some excellent aspects, and some rather poor ones too.
p51 Member
Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 10-18-2018 04:40 PM
I saw it in Lacey (Olympia), WA at the IMAX theater on the opening night. Less than ten people were there total.
I was getting really tired of an older guy explaining everything that was going on to his (probably long-suffering) wife/girlfriend and one thing I noticed almost everyone said at the same time when the end credits rolled: "That's IT?"
Nobody was talking about the movie as they left, either.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-18-2018 04:48 PM
Well, to balance things out, when I saw it again on Sunday afternoon in Houston, all but the front two rows and the back row of the theater had seats available.
APG85 Member
Posts: 306 From: Registered: Jan 2008
posted 10-18-2018 05:02 PM
I had high expectations for this movie and couldn't wait to see it. Unfortunately, I didn't think it was very good. I was very disappointed in it.
Greggy_D Member
Posts: 977 From: Michigan Registered: Jul 2006
posted 10-18-2018 05:36 PM
quote:Originally posted by GACspaceguy: I was the only one in the theater.
Ditto for me on Tuesday. I had my own personal IMAX viewing for $7.00.
bobzz Member
Posts: 100 From: Batavia, Illinois Registered: Aug 2007
posted 10-18-2018 08:17 PM
A dark portrayal of Neil Armstrong. Very few smiles on anyone's face throughout. You're left wondering why this couple didn't divorce sooner. Not an uplifting film at all.
thisismills Member
Posts: 262 From: Michigan Registered: Mar 2012
posted 10-18-2018 10:11 PM
There were 5 people in the showing I went to earlier this week.
Possible spoilers below.
Refrained from reading reviews before watching (avoided this thread and thankfully the trailers until now) so I could go in fresh (space knowledge notwithstanding on this one).
As a form of entertainment, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie from start to finish. I was pleased that this turned out to be a portrait covering only a short time-frame of his career, with a focus on the emotions of family and those around him and not just a movie about Apollo 11. I could (and would) have watched more but understand that is not feasible in this format.
The hollywoodization of effects was somewhat distracting but only during the Gemini and Apollo launches, as I could swear I heard a kitchen sink come loose at one point. I would have probably preferred more outside views with no audio at all, letting the striking visuals take over, but can understand what they were going for here. Otherwise, I'm not concerned with actors recreating precise maneuvers from history, impact of the message is just as well felt in either case.
As a father, and knowing now that Rick and Mark were involved in the making of, it made the scene at the dinner table before leaving for his Apollo flight intense. "Any more questions?... Ok." Whew.
Enjoyed the close-ups during the X-15 and LLRV scenes, was refreshing to see these aircraft on screen.
Having not yet read the book, I am looking forward to picking it up for this upcoming Michigan winter.
trajan Member
Posts: 109 From: Chester, Cheshire, UK Registered: May 2004
posted 10-19-2018 04:59 AM
I thought the film was a fantastic piece of cinema and a very different, but not unwelcome, angle to what I was expecting. I'm a little surprised that it is so polarising, but each to their own...
One thing I wanted to mention was that the casting of some of the actors was spot on — the actor playing Dave Scott was an absolute dead ringer for him, especially when seen through the Gemini helmet!
Looks-wise, Buzz was also very well cast, although his lack of social skills and tension with Neil were uncomfortable to watch. Although I didn't feel that Ryan Gosling was facially very similar to Neil, I think he captured him excellently in terms of posture and mannerisms.
So, basically, a shout out to the casting director!
oly Member
Posts: 905 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 10-19-2018 06:11 AM
quote:Originally posted by trajan: Looks-wise, Buzz was also very well cast, although his lack of social skills and tension with Neil were uncomfortable to watch.
I am curious how Neil and Buzz interacted under normal circumstances, and if there is any resemblance to the way they were seen in this film?
posted 10-19-2018 07:09 AM
Spoiler Alert: I don't think Buzz would be ignorant enough to criticize See on the day of his funeral.
Blackarrow Member
Posts: 3118 From: Belfast, United Kingdom Registered: Feb 2002
posted 10-19-2018 03:16 PM
I enjoyed the film, and was surprised how quickly 2 hours 21 minutes flew past, but as the three Apollo 11 astronauts made their way to the spacecraft I was half-expecting the soundtrack to play "March to the Scaffold" by Berlioz. Sydney Carton looked more cheerful approaching the guillotine. And that last scene resembles a wife visiting her husband on death-row.
MCroft04 Member
Posts: 1634 From: Smithfield, Me, USA Registered: Mar 2005
posted 10-19-2018 05:15 PM
I'm going to go way out on a limb here because I'm out of my comfort zone. But here is what the last scene said to me. Both Jan and Neil realizing that for them life was never going to be the same.
posted 10-14-2018 10:58 PM
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