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Author
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Topic: Building a Saturn V rocket to work today?
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Silent Sea
Member Posts: 36
From:
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted 10-26-2015 12:50 PM
  
This is one of those things that I've been thinking of on and off for awhile. It's definitely a theoretical thing only, as I highly doubt that it'll happen. I'm just curious.Putting aside any financial aspects, would the Saturn V still work today if someone were to build it? I'm guessing there would need to be adjustments to things like the instrument unit to send data to today's mission control and such. What other kind of changes would need to be made to make it function? |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-27-2015 06:52 AM
The instrument unit as an assembly would not be required. Its functions can be consolidated into a few small boxes that could be attached directly to the 3rd stage. As for changes, the whole avionics architecture would have to be updated. Manufacturing processes updated. Materials updated. All due to obsolescence. |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2212
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-27-2015 06:59 AM
I heard somewhere once that all the technical drawings were now lost, surely this is not the case? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-27-2015 08:47 AM
To quote a Space.com article from 15 years ago (now offline), citing Paul Shawcross, an agent with the NASA Office of Inspector General: ...the Saturn V blueprints are held at the Marshall Space Flight Center on microfilm.The Federal Archives in East Point, Georgia, also has 2,900 cubic feet of Saturn documents. Rocketdyne has in its archives dozens of volumes from its Knowledge Retention Program. This effort was initiated in the late '60s to document every facet of F-1 and J-2 engine production to assist in any future restart. The problem isn't having the drawings, which are still available to engineers and researchers. ...it is finding vendors who can supply mid-1960's vintage hardware and the fact that the launch pads and vehicle assembly buildings have been converted to space shuttle use, so you have no place to launch from.By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re-modify the launch pads, you may as well have started from scratch with a clean sheet design. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 10-27-2015 10:24 AM
Yes, Robert. It's not building a Saturn V, it's building all the support equipment to go with it. |
tfrielin
Member Posts: 162
From: Athens, GA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 10-27-2015 10:24 AM
Note: Some years ago the archives at East Point were closed and the collections moved to a new facility at Morrow, Ga — at the entrance of Clayton State College. It is a very nice facility for researchers. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-27-2015 02:09 PM
It would be much like trying to built a Ford Model T. Which would be impossible today since many of the processes and suppliers are no longer around or in use. The only thing possible would be to build a replica using modern day materials and processes. Today, when we want to build a car, we don't duplicate the Model T. We would use a modern design that uses modern materials and processes and the lessons learned over the last 100 years. So, if we want a heavy lift vehicle for today, we would start with fresh design to meet the requirements. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2474
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 10-27-2015 02:24 PM
One of the big issues on recreating a production line shut down for 50 years is the craftsmanship it takes to build the items. In my experience in supporting 40 plus year old aircraft getting spare parts made even if you have the data and the drawings can be a big challenge. The tooling itself can be the biggest hurtle. In the years gone by there was less automation and more touch labor. That touch labor brings technique and skill that cannot be designed in or recorded. I have seen where someone retires and you can no longer make something that was made for years. Those special assembly techniques walk away with the skill. It may be hard to accept but that in fact is the reality of resurrecting programs from the 60s, difficult at best, nearly impossible in some cases. |
Silent Sea
Member Posts: 36
From:
Registered: Mar 2015
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posted 10-27-2015 09:23 PM
Well, all this talk certainly shows why I'm not a rocket engineer, heh. I didn't even think of the launch pad issue, or automation versus touch labor. Interesting responses all around.While I'm glad that the blueprints were saved, it seems that it's more just keeping the historical knowledge. The 'future restart' bit does intrigue me. Wonder if there's any chance of digitizing the materials? Are we able to use what was learned building the Saturn V to any rockets today? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-27-2015 09:31 PM
Next generation J-2 and F-1 engines have been developed. They even test fired parts of an Apollo-era F-1 engine in support of the latter.The lessons learned from the Saturn V are generally being applied to the Space Launch System, with regards to ground support and launch operations. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2474
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 10-28-2015 04:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Silent Sea:
Wonder if there's any chance of digitizing the materials?
It can be done. All of our drawings from the 50s-80s have been scanned as reside in our on line system. I can't remember the last time I read a hard copy of a drawing. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-28-2015 10:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Silent Sea:
Are we able to use what was learned building the Saturn V to any rockets today?
Not directly. There have been many iterations of different launch vehicles since then and lessons have been passed on. |
Constellation One
Member Posts: 119
From: Lorain, Ohio, USA
Registered: Aug 2008
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posted 10-28-2015 10:28 AM
Somewhat timely, Michael Yarymovych (MOL technical director) at the recent lecture in Dayton said something close to:"Today we could never go to the moon, certainly not in the time-frame we did. The work attitude isn't there to support the program. People just won't work the hours we did to solve the problems." |
minipci
Member Posts: 365
From: London, UK
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-29-2015 09:32 AM
People just won't work the hours we did to solve the problems. No wonder China is on the up...
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-29-2015 09:47 AM
Today we could never go to the moon, certainly not in the time-frame we did. The work attitude isn't there to support the program. I might agree with him about the time-frame, but he's wrong to say never.In a few days, we'll be marking the 15th year of a continuous human presence aboard a spacecraft that is exponentially larger and more complex than the Apollo spacecraft. It may travel closer to Earth but the dedication needed to build it, launch it, assemble it and now operate it dwarfs the engineering and managerial effort put into reaching the moon, especially when you consider it required, and still requires, teams of thousands of people from different countries working together. It took more than a decade to get the space station program started, but once set into motion, the dedication was there to see it through to today. So yes, without the threat of a political foe, without the patriotism imparted by a fallen president, and with a different work ethic than existed 40 years ago, we take a lot longer to move in any one direction, but that doesn't mean we cannot or haven't the ability to still achieve the goal. |
oly
Member Posts: 905
From: Perth, Western Australia
Registered: Apr 2015
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posted 10-30-2015 07:19 AM
With regard to the original question, building the Saturn rocket would be possible, the knowledge, data and experience exists so there is no reason it could not be done if all factors, such as cost, were not a consideration.Tooling, jigs, manufacturing plants, logistics, launch site and infrastructure would need to go with it but it could be done. It would be more practical to utilize modern materials, techniques and technology to build a machine with modern avionics, life support etc that could provide weight reductions and increased safety margins. The same argument could be used with regard to the shuttle, a modern version incorporating lessons learnt from years of experience could build a more efficient system. The problem is the desire to do so. Without public support and industry need neither craft would be built. Also, with today's workplace occupation health and safety regulations it would be hard to strap three astronauts into a capsule and send them on a Apollo 8 type mission to orbit the moon without a lunar module as an Apollo 13 style backup lifeboat without somebody objecting. The risk assessment matrix for this would be mind boggling. As appealing as it would be from an historic-reflective perspective to see a Saturn V launch toady,with the limited funds, interest from gov't and lack of public interest, any spacecraft manufactured on the Apollo scale should be built to have greater capabilities so that new, longer duration missions can be done. |
Cozmosis22
Member Posts: 968
From: Texas * Earth
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted 10-30-2015 09:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by oly:
The problem is the desire to do so.
Therein lies the crux of the biscuit. Public support is controlled (positively or negatively) by mass media and politicians. The propaganda a few years ago was that "we cannot afford to keep the space shuttle flying." Still the federal government found a way to increase the budgets for bureaucracies like the Department of Education. The 2015 FedEd budget is about 77 billion dollars while the NASA budget is a paltry 18. Back on topic: The old Saturn V could theoretically be built today; but it is old technology after all, and it won't happen. |
Jim Behling
Member Posts: 1463
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: Mar 2010
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posted 10-30-2015 10:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Cozmosis22:
Public support is controlled (positively or negatively) by mass media and politicians.
There really is no majority support for such a program. And rightly so, the gov't doesn't need to go to the moon. |
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