|
Author
|
Topic: History Channel Pawn Stars: Space artifacts
|
KSCartist
Member Posts: 3000
From: Titusville, FL
Registered: Feb 2005
|
posted 07-11-2010 08:22 AM
   
This Monday, July 12 (2010) on The History Channel "Pawn Stars" will air an episode titled Moon Walking. The Pawn Stars are blasted into orbit when someone brings in a flag from one of NASA's final missions to the Moon. Autographed by the crew of Apollo 16, will the gang take one giant leap and buy this rare piece of history or will they take steps to abort the mission? 
Credit: The History Channel I wonder which expert they'll get to authenticate it - and if they're a member of cS? |
MarylandSpace
Member Posts: 1399
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 07-11-2010 11:16 AM
This show is nearly always a fun show to watch. Thank you for giving us the heads up on this episode. |
divemaster
Member Posts: 1376
From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002
|
posted 07-11-2010 12:46 PM
Oh, yeah. Pawn Stars and American Pickers is way up there on my list. It makes my collecting habits seem much more normal. |
Leon Ford
Member Posts: 309
From: Shreveport, LA, United States
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-11-2010 05:39 PM
Just got back from Las Vegas last night and we went by the pawn shop from "Pawn Stars". Didn't see anything space related in the public area of the shop. The shop is really very small. They are doing a big business in "Pawn Star" T-shirt sales!! I will have to watch tomorrow night and see if I missed anything!! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-12-2010 02:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KSCartist:
I wonder which expert they'll get to authenticate it...
If I had to take a blind guess, it would be Mark Hall-Patton, administrator of the Clark County Heritage Museum and the Howard W. Cannon Aviation Museum at McCarran Airport.Whoever the expert is, I hope the appraisal touches on a few points as a means of giving viewers a mini-lesson in space memorabilia: - Autographs: authentic, pre-print and/or autopen;
- Number of flags: they won't have the exact numbers, (no one seems to have unearthed that accounting) but at least don't imply that only a few flags were aboard each mission; and,
- Flight status: lunar-orbit vs. lunar-surface.
I'll be really impressed if they talk about personal preference kits (PPK) vs. official flight kits (OFK) but that's a level of detail above and beyond what I would expect from a general interest show.Any others want to take a pre-show stab at the appraisal's potential pitfalls? |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 2024
From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 07-12-2010 04:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Any others want to take a pre-show stab at the appraisal's potential pitfalls?
Those are good points/predictions. I'd guess that the expert might overstate the rarity of the flags for that reality-TV drama. It will be really lame if they don't pick up on autopens. Get ready to freeze-frame those DVRs! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 07-12-2010 05:24 PM
If Mark does the appraisal, he won't be willing to speculate on the market value on the item. He will only comment on it's authenticity and it's relative rarity. But he NEVER throws out a dollar amount, so it'll be interesting to see what price (if any) is discussed/negotiated after the appraisal.Of course, anyone who watches the show (or is familiar with the business) knows that the pawn shop typically only pays 25-50% of the market value, so they can profit from a healthy mark-up. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3331
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-12-2010 09:46 PM
Just saw the first segment of the show and the signatures on the Apollo 16 flag presentation are vintage-era authentic in my opinion along with the format presentation. It appears that flag was on the command module.Now to see what is said about their called-in autograph authenticator... |
MarylandSpace
Member Posts: 1399
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 07-12-2010 09:53 PM
They are keeping us waiting... |
xlsteve
Member Posts: 393
From: Holbrook MA, USA
Registered: Jul 2008
|
posted 07-12-2010 10:30 PM
Well, I've just finished watching, and I have to say that Mark did a good job in his assessment. I also thought the signatures looked good, and the flag appears to be the right size. I was concerned that there was no provenance for the flag. I'd be hard pressed to put down that kind of money for a flown item without any kind of provenance. Maybe some was presented off camera.Assuming the flag was not flown, but the signatures are authentic, would the piece be worth about $800 or so? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-12-2010 10:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I'll be really impressed if they talk about personal preference kits...
Well, I said I would be impressed, and I was for the mention of the PPK, even if Hall-Patton referred to it as a "personal preference package."On the other points that I raised earlier, Patton-Hall touched on all three. - Number of flags: He talked about the rarity of the flags (though opposite of what I wrote about the number of flags per mission, he had a valid point of placing the flag into the context of everything that has been the Moon vs. everything that has not);
- Flight status: Asked if the flag had been on the Moon, he replied "Maybe." A good answer. The presentation only said "carried to the Moon" -- the same style presentation accompanied both orbit-only and lunar surface flown flags.
- Autographs: Hall-Patton cautioned about autopens and deferred to handwriting expert who ultimately (and correctly) found the crew's signatures to be authentic.
Credit: The History ChannelThe discussion of the autographs though, led to a significant error: Hall-Patton inferred and shop boss Rick Harrison stressed that the flag was only authentic if the autographs were as well. That's not correct. There are numerous examples of authentic flown flag presentations with autopen and/or pre-printed signatures. The authentic autographs certainly add value and provenance, but aren't necessary to declare the flag flown. As for the final sale price ($4,000), I think it was fair. I don't know what auction Harrison was citing when he mentioned a $3,500 recent sale but it is consistent for an assumed orbit-flown flag. Heritage Auction Galleries in Dallas did sell an identical presentation in 2007 for $7,170 (including buyer's premium) but that piece included an additional inscription by Duke and the sale preceded by a few months the start of the current recession. I was disappointed that no one asked how she came to own the flag (or at least it didn't make it into the episode). Did she work for the space program? Was she a friend of a crew member (presumably not Duke, who she called "Christian" rather than Charlie)? Did she buy it? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 07-12-2010 11:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Heritage Auction Galleries in Dallas did sell an identical presentation in 2007 for $7,170 (including buyer's premium) but that piece included an additional inscription by Duke
Look again... the example on Pawn Stars also included a Duke inscription in the same place as seen on the Heritage example. Though one might argue it could be worth more without the inscription, since it would be an "unpersonalized" presentation... making it more desirable to certain collectors.Also, the Pawn Stars example appeared to be in overall much better shape... showing very little aging at all (unlike the Heritage/Garino example). She must have stored the presentation in a dark area all these years. Still... I think they offered her a fair price, considering they need to make a profit by re-selling it. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-13-2010 02:05 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
Look again... the example on Pawn Stars also included a Duke inscription in the same place as seen on the Heritage example.
Sure enough, I just re-watched the episode and indeed I missed there is was inscription. I wasn't able to catch the full text of the inscription but hopefully once available on-demand, it will be possible to read to whom this flag was originally presented. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3331
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-13-2010 05:29 AM
While I do agree with all the comments made above, it was an overall "good" brief intro-presentation about flown lunar flags. But of course, we viewers were only limited to see what the program show editors permitted, which is very little. There was a sentence or two inscription below the photo area that I wasn't able to read, however, just about everything else that I was able to view of the presentation pointed to a genuine piece. The printed caption below the flag is the same type that had been used on most all the vintage Apollo 16 presentations like this, including on a variety of a later-produced format or two. The majority of US flags mounted in a format like this were probably CM-flown flags, as one of the crewmembers had told me, even though later presentations did contain lunar surface carried flags. Unless noted as such in a printed or hand-inscribed write-up and/or perhaps with other provided documentation, it should be authenticated as a lunar orbital flown flag, in my opinion. The crew signatures look great to me and there are several indications they were indeed vintage from the mission period. A dead give-a-way here was with Young and Mattingly, especially though with the CMP autograph -- one trait in particular -- that many folks are not aware of. Indicated prices; Certainly her asking price of $23K is too high for a CM-flown flag (not Apollo 11), and probably for a surface flag as well, but I think the pawn shop guys offered a fair "dealer" price for the piece at $4K. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-13-2010 11:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
I wasn't able to catch the full text of the inscription but hopefully once available on-demand, it will be possible to read to whom this flag was originally presented.
The complete inscription reads: To Ann and Ed Nigro, with sincere best wishes to two fine friends from Apollo 16 The woman who brought the flag into the store was identified as "Darlene."The full episode can now be watched online on The History Channel's website. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3225
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 07-13-2010 12:39 PM
To Ann and Ed Nigro, with sincere best wishes to two fine friends from Apollo 16 Probably this couple, given the Vegas location, recent date of death, and air force connection. |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1355
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 07-13-2010 01:47 PM
Charlie Duke started using the same type of presentation display when he started selling off the lunar surface flags that he carried to the Moon in his PPK in 1990's. His presentation was very similar to the one shown on Pawn Stars with the exception that the crew signed the woman's presentation and only Charlie inscribed and signed his lunar surface flag presentation.  I looked at our Apollo 16 flag presentation while watching the show and found that the typed inscription under the flag was the same as the one at the pawn shop. I was surprised that the typed inscription did not say it was lunar surface on mine either. Which makes me to wonder, if her flag could have been in "Orion" during the Apollo 16 spaceflight. Unfortunately, without proper documentation, we must assume that it is a lunar orbit flag. Still, it does give me pause. The difference is that I had Charlie inscribe on the flag that it was carried to the lunar surface in the LM "Orion" and sign his name. I also have a COA from Charlie stating the history of the flag from launch to landing to staying in his collection since his mission. There is also a photograph of us together with the flag display and the COA. Otherwise, I fear that I would be in the same situation as the pawn shop woman, if I decided to sell the display.  Charlie also inscribed our presentation board under his photo much like he did on the pawn shop display. So that is some of the comparisons and differences between the two displays. The other interesting thing to me was also the presentation frame. That natural wood frame that is about one inch deep looks like the frames that were used for patch displays that were made in the JSC "scheduling" shop. It would have been really interesting to see where the woman got that presentation as it looks completely intact from the day it was given by the Apollo 16 crew. I think the $4,000 was on the money. I was thinking between $3,500 and $5,000 for the display based on the need to make a profit on the future sale of the flag. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3331
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-13-2010 03:20 PM
Larry, your flag presentation is just about identical to my own that is a lunar surface flown flag from Duke, however, I don't think Charlie had the "surface flags" mounted on the display board until years after his return from the moon. We can ask and see what he says as I could be mistaken. I've seen and have handled original crew-signed formats like this, as seen on the show, and have always considered them as CM-flown flags. Obviously, there were probably hundreds and hundreds of more flags (US, state, other nations, etc.) that were stored inside the Apollo command modules -- and perhaps in many different capacities -- than in comparison to the lunar landing crafts. In most cases that I am aware of some of the later Apollo lunar landing flights -- starting with Apollo 14 -- did in fact indicate on a certification of sorts that this particular flag or mission patch made it to the actual lunar surface. There is even a printed documentation from NASA on at least one, and possibly two, display presentation formats that such indicated flag/patch went to the moon's surface aboard LM-12/Challenger during Apollo 17. |
Playalinda
Member Posts: 152
From: Peoria, AZ, USA
Registered: Oct 2009
|
posted 07-13-2010 05:01 PM
I really can't believe how entertaining this show is. I really enjoyed it. I like the guy who offered for the flown flag 20 bucks. He made me laugh several times during the show. I think the $4,000 paid for the flag presentation was too much. The $3,500 offered first was a fair offer but when the lady asked for $4,000 they agreed. I mean he knew she wanted to travel to Paris so he gave in. On my next trip to Vegas I will visit the store. |
Larry McGlynn
Member Posts: 1355
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted 07-13-2010 06:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
I don't think Charlie had the "surface flags" mounted on the display board until years after his return from the moon. We can ask and see what he says as I could be mistaken.
Ken, we will have to ask Charlie about when he started placing flags from his LM PPK on those presentations. I think it was in the 1990's. So I agree with you that he didn't do it for many years after the mission. Hundreds of flags is a good guess on the number per mission that were in the CM. The amount shrinks once you get into the LM. Then it shrinks further when you start talking about the size of the flag. The bigger the flag the less that went to the Moon or the surface. Then when you break out US flags vs state and international flags, it get less and less. |
generallou
Member Posts: 114
From: T H, Indiana
Registered: Jun 2005
|
posted 07-13-2010 06:50 PM
The show is entertaining however some things on the show are staged, not real items brought in. The Lou Gehrig jersey they had was not a real item; it was brought in by a dealer and put on for a good show. The same with an old piece of paper money; the dealer who owned it was asked to bring it in for the show. So I wonder how many items are actually brought in by real customers. Many people who have been there say the area people are allowed to go into is really small and they have not seen anything in the shop that was on tv. So I now just watch it for entertainment and take what is said as that and not fact. And really when you think about it, if I had a moon flown flag, I think I would find an auction house, not a pawn shop, to sell it to. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3331
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-14-2010 05:14 AM
I forgot to mention in my earlier post to Larry that my primary flown lunar surface American flag contains a letter from Duke along with a COA, also, I had the astronaut/lunar explorer autograph a picture with a special inscription about the flag presentation. The display board with the actual flag mounted on it is inscribed as follows: To Ken Havekotte, An Eyewitness to the Launch of Apollo 16, that enabled me to become the 10th man to walk on the Moon. This 4x6" U.S. flag was flown in space on Apollo 16 from April 16-27, 1972, in LM-11/Orion that landed on the Moon's Descartes Highlands and returned to Earth in CM-113/Casper... |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-14-2010 10:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by generallou:
And really when you think about it, if I had a moon flown flag, I think I would find an auction house, not a pawn shop, to sell it to.
Though certainly not unique to pawn shops, the Gold & Silver had a reputation for dealing in historical items even before the show began (which presumably led to the series). With the show's popularity — media reports have described the store now seeing upwards of 800 to 1,000 people per day — going where the traffic is doesn't seem that odd. |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 2024
From: Fairfax, VA
Registered: Feb 2007
|
posted 07-14-2010 01:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
Certainly her asking price of $23K is too high for a CM-flown flag (not Apollo 11)
Her trying that might have been my favorite moment on this episode. She said she'd done some research, and the only mention of an Apollo-flown flag she could find happened to have been pretty much the most expensive one ever sold. Riiiiiight! |
328KF
Member Posts: 1341
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 07-14-2010 09:04 PM
Could one of the flag owners tell us what the other description tag in the lower right corner of the frame reads?I also noticed in the program that the Apollo 16 patch was a trimmed beta cloth version. Were these flown as well? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-14-2010 09:25 PM
The tag in the lower right corner reads: "There is nothing so far removed from us so as to beyond our reach, or so hidden that we cannot discover it."
Rene Descartes - 1637 I don't believe the patch was flown. At least, I have never seen it described as such. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1341
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
|
posted 07-14-2010 11:34 PM
Thanks Robert! I thought the tag might have been describing the patch on the one in the program. If I were those guys, I would hang on to that piece and display it in the shop rather than try to flip it. |
spacefan JC
Member Posts: 86
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2010
|
posted 07-15-2010 08:26 AM
I visited this shop when I was in Vegas last year, I have to say I was a little disappointed. It's tiny, and a little bit seedy, but hey, it is Vegas.... Good job this wasn't there at the time, or I'd have been too tempted to try and win some money on the tables to buy it! Suffice to say there is an "eclectic" mix of items for sale, and as I was in Vegas I had to pop in. (If I was any where near OCC in New York I would have to visit them, too.) Still worth a visit, but also go to the Atomic Testing Museum if you get the chance. It's very good! (Got a photo at Neil Armstrong Street too.)
Sorry for wandering off topic into a travel guide... |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3331
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 07-15-2010 09:05 AM
Is the pawn shop really that small? When viewing the shop on television, I am seeing an area that appears to be quite large with lots of people on the main floor(s)?For TV purposes, can the shop somehow appear to be larger than it really is? As someone pointed out before on this topic, perhaps the show's producers arrange "staged" customer walk-ins with specific type of items for value determinations. If so, it sounds a bit misleading to me -- but again -- isn't it all a part of how the TV world operates? |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1750
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
|
posted 07-15-2010 09:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Larry McGlynn:
So I ask this question, "If anybody had a choice what flag would they want from an Apollo mission, US, state or country?
Definitely a US flag. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 07-15-2010 11:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
As someone pointed out before on this topic, perhaps the show's producers arrange "staged" customer walk-ins with specific type of items for value determinations.
I believe this is true... they arrange customer visits for the cameras. The transactions and negotiations could be legitimate, but they pre-arrange the meetings so the television crew doesn't have to sit there and film hours of random customer visits... hoping to catch something interesting.Regarding the size of the store, I wonder if the main showroom (that you see on TV) is only open during certain hours... or by appointment... and a smaller room is open for general customers 24/7 (since the shop never closes). Also, I suspect they close off the main showroom when filming is taking place, so a smaller side room is used during this time to keep the shop open. Additionally, I wonder if they try to keep tourists out of the main showroom unless they express genuine interest in buying something specific. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 07-15-2010 12:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
I believe this is true... they arrange customer visits for the cameras.
They advertise such on The History Channel's website. Want to be on Pawn Stars? Have an item to sell or pawn?If you will be visiting Vegas soon, email us a text description of the item. If selected, you could be on Pawn Stars! |
spacefan JC
Member Posts: 86
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2010
|
posted 07-15-2010 02:43 PM
I'm not too sure about another room or stage. From what I saw it was clever camera placement and angles to make the place look bigger. Besides, there are a whole load of other business units backing onto the shop. I have to admit I stood out a little bit with my British accent when I was in there, and parking amongst the "bling" SUVs in the car park in my Prius. It was no where near as tidy as you see on the show either. Lots of game consoles and DVDs stacked up all over the place. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3225
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
|
posted 07-15-2010 03:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by spacefan JC:
are there any flown Union Flags (Union Jacks)? I guess a few might have gone up with the British born astronauts, Sellers for example. I'd like to get my hands on one of those!
You just missed an auction for one that flew to the moon, with the proceeds going to a very good cause. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4410
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
|
posted 07-15-2010 04:33 PM
Perhaps it is me; am I the only person able to watch a trailer for the episode in question... but when it comes to watch the broadcast itself I get the message; "The content you are trying to access is not available in your area." |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1371
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
|
posted 07-15-2010 06:56 PM
Let's hope between Russian launch keys and moon flags this sparks interest in all of the space programs. |
jimsz
Member Posts: 630
From:
Registered: Aug 2006
|
posted 07-15-2010 10:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn:
"The content you are trying to access is not available in your area."
It may be limited to US viewers due to copyright laws or viewing rights. |
generallou
Member Posts: 114
From: T H, Indiana
Registered: Jun 2005
|
posted 07-16-2010 08:07 AM
I came across this today. If true it really sucks! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
|
posted 07-16-2010 03:30 PM
I haven't heard of that authenticator, so I don't know anything of his reputation. But I agreed with his assessment of the Kennedy signatures and the Apollo 16 signatures.In the comments section, someone claims the show is taped in a soundstage that is a replica of the actual shop. That could easily explain why the actual shop is somewhat smaller (and less tidy) than the shop that appears on TV. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
|
posted 04-19-2011 12:53 PM
The History Channel's Pawn Stars season two episode "Take a Seat," which premiered April 18, included another example of space memorabilia: Corey and Chumlee have their heads in the clouds when a guy brings in a signed photo of NASA's Gemini launch. With over a dozen astronautical autographs, will the guys take one giant leap to buy this piece of space history or will they forced to abort the mission? |
advertisement