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Author
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Topic: History Channel Pawn Stars: Space artifacts
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kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 04-19-2011 01:09 PM
   
I saw that last night. The guys were clueless about the photo, only recognizing Buzz Aldrin's name. They totally missed Neil Armstrong and called Wally Schirra "Wally Shimma." It was a great piece with all of the signatures (though many pretty faded), including Ed White, and I was curious what, if anything, has happened to it. |
wharfrat57
Member Posts: 114
From: Heath, Ohio, United States
Registered: Apr 2010
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posted 04-19-2011 03:22 PM
I can't believe that the guy took $2000 for that signed Gemini photo, with White, Grissom, Armstrong, and I even saw Collins on there as well, plus the others. But I guess that history just isn't as important to some people. If I were standing right there beside him as he was trying to sell it, it would have went out the door with me! |
history in miniature
Member Posts: 618
From: Slatington, PA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 04-19-2011 03:25 PM
Not only were the buyers clueless, so was the seller. I say this simply because he claimed to be an Air Force pilot as was his grandfather who had the picture signed. He originally only wanted a thousand dollars for it! |
Saturn V
Member Posts: 176
From: Golden, Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2006
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posted 04-19-2011 03:26 PM
What is everyone's opinion on what this picture should have sold for?Assuming the signatures were real, I told the wife at the time we were watching the show that I thought it would be worth in excess of $10,000. You can view the entire episode online. The picture is presented at about the five minute, 12 second mark. |
history in miniature
Member Posts: 618
From: Slatington, PA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 04-19-2011 03:43 PM
Makes you wonder about the integrity of the forensic document examiner and his connection with the pawn shop owners, he gave a $5,000 price which I thought was too low. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 04-19-2011 04:34 PM
The piece was signed by 13 Gemini astronauts (White, Grissom, Schirra and Borman on the left side of the Gemini-Titan; Stafford, Young, Lovell, Collins, Armstrong, Scott, Conrad, Cernan and Aldrin to the right). It was missing McDivitt, Cooper and Gordon to be complete for all Gemini crew members. A similar but complete piece (all 16 signatures) was recently appraised for an upcoming auction at $17,500 to $20,000. The forensic examiner who was brought in, Drew Max with Authentic Autographs Unlimited (AAU), does not buy or sell autographs. He does not identify himself as providing expert appraisals nor does AAU advertise providing appraisals. I agree that the piece, if offered at a well publicized, respected auction would sell for more than the $4,000 to $5,000 that Max suggested. I would estimate it at $10,000 to $12,000. At a pawn shop however, I'm not sure if a Gemini-themed collection of signatures -- even with Neil Armstrong -- would go much higher than $6,000 to $7,000. The clientele is not as specialized and most who shop at a pawn shop are looking for a bargain. |
charlavb1
New Member Posts:
From:
Registered:
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posted 04-19-2011 09:03 PM
I am disappointed to hear there is no space memorabilia to see in the shop. That seems odd to me considering Rick's professed love of American history. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2747
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 04-20-2011 05:05 AM
Just note; it has been my personal experience that reality shows are far from real. |
MrSpace86
Member Posts: 1618
From: Gardner, KS
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 04-20-2011 09:28 AM
I am surprised no one commented on the condition of this piece. Sure, the signatures are historical, but the condition of the piece itself is pretty bad. I agree that $2000 is rather low, but saying this is a $10,000 piece may be a little much. But then again, when it comes to the big auctions, you never know. Someone might even pay $30,000 if told it has the full crew of Apollo 11! |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-20-2011 01:45 PM
I saw this show and noted several misstatements by Corey and the seller. Neither of them seemed to know what the item is. It is autographed by Apollo 1 astronauts Ed White and Gus Grissom, the entire Apollo 11 crew (including Armstrong who never autographs anymore) and many of the moon walkers, The photo is a little faded, but its current value with the 13 autographs is probably in excess of $10,000. For this value I ask myself - "What would I pay for it if I had the money." My answer is $9,999. This is probably a one of a kind item that will never be duplicated. Its value in five or ten years would be well over $20,000 - particularly taking into consideration that there may not be another American on the moon for over 25 years or more, It has been mentioned that the seller was "clueless," I agree and I also wonder why he did not take this item to Christie's or Superior or Sotheby's or Swann or any legitimate auction house. Perhaps he was in a hurry for some payment. I also had the impression that the Pawn Shop was a large shop. Perhaps they use mirrors to make it look bigger. I watch all of the auction and Roadshows on TV for what I will learn. I learn something from every episode. From this episode I learned that I should never bring anything valuable to a pawn shop. |
history in miniature
Member Posts: 618
From: Slatington, PA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 04-20-2011 01:53 PM
After reading Robert's post I'd like to re-cant my comment about the integrity of the document examiner and his possible connection with the shop. That is too strong a word to use not knowing Mr. Max. I have seen him on many episodes, and, I just thought he should have known the value of an Armstrong autograph. |
Dougin SoCA
Member Posts: 111
From: Aliso Viejo, Ca, USA
Registered: Jan 2011
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posted 04-20-2011 02:04 PM
I'm often curious how unbiased the experts they routinely use on the show. Too bad the people who bring things in only go by one of Rick's experts, and not take at least a day or so to get a second, or third opinion. I wonder if for appearing on the show and selling Rick their items, if the seller's don't get an additional fee from the network (they probably at least get some sort of standard on-air appearance fees). Maybe this sweetens the deal enough for them to accept Rick's low-ball offers. The last person I'd want to trust and deal with is their old man. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-20-2011 02:10 PM
I agree, Max should have known the value of Armstrong's autograph. Today on FOX News Ben Stein gave recommendations on how to survive in this recession. He had a list that was tailored for very rich people. The first item on the list was "Do not invest in collectibles." He had in mind vintage cars and very expensive art. I disagree with Ben Stein on this matter. Collectibles, particularly items like the Gemini autographed photo, are an excellent investment. There are many bargains out there for space collectors, apparently some are in pawn shops. Collectibles are an excellent investment, but you must have knowledge of the subject matter and its value. As shown in this thread and many others, Collect Space members are extremely knowledgeable about space memorabilia. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1773
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 04-20-2011 02:17 PM
First, I wouldn't trust a forensic document examiner to verify any signature. They are even worse than the autograph verification services.This show was filmed about 8 months ago and the piece went quickly. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-20-2011 02:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dougin SoCA:
The last person I'd want to trust and deal with is their old man.
I also would not want to deal with the "Old Man". Could he really be 68? He acts like he is 88. Perhaps it is better that we just enjoy the show as is. Knowing who got paid to appear on the show would not make it more entertaining. Also, Max and the other authorities must be paid a fee every time they give an opinion (perhaps $50).One episode that got my attention involved a map that was actually used at the battle of Iwo Jima in WW II. A young man sold this huge detailed map that was actually on the ground during the battle. I think it was his father's or grand-father's map. He sold it for !,300. This map was priceless for WW II collectors and map collectors. It is probably worth $15,000 to $20,000. My father died in Normandy in WW II. I have only 6 photos of him when he was very young. I would never sell any of these photos or even a button from his coat. How could he sell that map and for so little? |
kr4mula
Member Posts: 642
From: Cinci, OH
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 04-20-2011 02:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LM1:
It has been mentioned that the seller was "clueless," I agree and I also wonder why he did not take this item to Christie's or Superior or Sotheby's or Swann or any legitimate auction house. Perhaps he was in a hurry for some payment.
I think you answered your own question. Most of these people just inherited or found the item and are more interested in making a quick buck than they are at maximizing their profit. Even the pawn guys admit as much by telling the people they could get much more from an auction or whatever, but do they want the hassle (and time) of finding one and going through the whole auction process? They are very clear that they need to make a profit based on the lower end of an expected autction/selling price, so they need to lowball their own offer. Consider also the setting: they're in Vegas. People want money to spend now, not months from now. |
tegwilym
Member Posts: 2339
From: Sturgeon Bay, WI
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 04-20-2011 04:49 PM
That shop stole that thing for $2,000! I hope that seller found out how stupid he was agreeing to that price. I would have turned around and walked out the door (with the piece). It did have Armstrong and Wally "Schimma" on there!  |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 1004
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 04-20-2011 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GACspaceguy:
Just note; it has been my personal experience that reality shows are far from real.
Agreed. I believe that what we are watching is a scripted work of fiction. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-21-2011 08:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Greggy_D:
I believe that what we are watching is a scripted work of fiction.
I agree, but they (Pawn Stars, Hardcore Pawn, Auction Hunters, etc.) are very well done and I will continue watching. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1773
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 05-03-2011 06:32 AM
The History Channel's Pawn Stars had a segment Monday that had a reputed piece of Apollo 13 heat shield. The Pawn Stars call Houston with a problem when they are presented with a piece of the heat shield from NASA's most heroic flight -- Apollo 13. Can the team complete their mission and return to profit, or will the price send them spinning out of orbit? I did not see the beginning of the show which told how the man came to be in possession, but he had no paperwork with it. It was a piece encased in lucite.The expert was the guy from the museum who said it appeared to be a piece of heat shield but without paperwork, he could not say which mission it might have come from. The seller wanted something like $50 thousand but they would only offer him $2,000, so he walked. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4955
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-03-2011 07:57 AM
Another mistaken "expert"...not even Apollo. Based on the brief glimpse it looks like a bisected segment of RV or Mercury heat-shield which could have been either flown or arc-ablation tested.
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capoetc
Member Posts: 2267
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 05-03-2011 09:42 AM
Not to mention, just because it is in lucite does not necessarily make it authentic... |
Saturn V
Member Posts: 176
From: Golden, Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2006
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posted 05-03-2011 12:50 PM
He should have let it go for $2000... |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4955
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-03-2011 01:07 PM
Ironically, if it is a Project Mercury artifact it's probably worth at least 2K (would be to me). |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47408
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-03-2011 03:48 PM
For discussion, here are some frames from the episode showing the purported Apollo 13 heat shield: 
It is a very attractive piece but I agree with Scott, that it is more likely from Mercury (and is not from Apollo). Compare the sample from the show with this small sample of Mercury ablative material. Even were it not flown (and without any additional provenance, one could never claim it was), Mercury spacecraft components are rare and this was a particularly well crafted display. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2747
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-03-2011 05:42 PM
It looks like a test part as the button on top looks like a holding device and not an attachment fastener. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 239
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 05-03-2011 06:18 PM
Here are some sketches from the Mercury Familiarization Manual. It certainly appears the same. The fastener was grabbed by a sliding (rotating) mechanism that allowed the heat shield to drop during descent to deploy the landing bag. The TV piece would have been a good 'talking' piece to allow engineers to discuss the attachment/deployment method. The fastener looks genuine.There are also some sketches in the Maintenance Manual. Both can easily be found with a Google search if you are more interested. There are also some shots on the Spacecraft Film set showing the heat shield being installed but I don't remember which one.  
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GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2747
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 05-03-2011 06:58 PM
Great data! Looks like it could be a Mercury piece. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 05-04-2011 11:22 AM
Everyone in this thread did their homework for this uninscribed, undocumented item. The Pawn Stars crew should consult collectSPACE before purchasing such items. Keep in mind that they buy and sell many non-space related items, such as vintage toys, maps, guns, etc. I imagine that members of groups devoted to these and other collectibles are also shouting at the TV when their specialty collectible is not characterized or described or valued correctly. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 06-21-2011 08:15 AM
Just for any UK based readers who might be interested, the episode with the Apollo 16 flag presentation was shown on the History Channel last night. I think they repeat recent shows at weekends or something so if anyone missed it and wanted to see it there may be another chance. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 08-23-2011 05:06 AM
There was another episode (advertised as a new episode in the UK, no idea when it would have been shown in the US) last night with an Apollo flavour.A man bought in some photos and negatives from Apollo 17 to see how much he could get for them. I won't say the outcome for anyone who is planning on watching the episode, I assume they will repeat it at some point over the coming week. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-10-2012 04:41 PM
The latest episode of Pawn Stars features a Hasbro Buzz Aldrin GI Joe Doll which they purchased for $25 because it was produced relatively recently - 1999. This doll is listed on eBay several times for $100-150. One person is selling the doll MIB for only $5. Another person is selling only the box. This is a very good move, if you find yourself with only the box for a space-related item - sell the box. |
p51
Member Posts: 1734
From: Olympia, WA
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 01-10-2012 08:37 PM
Make no mistake, many of the 'sales' on that show are set up. I know of two pieces of artillery that were supposedly either sold or an offer made where the owners never sold (or had intentions to sell) at all. I know the owners in both cases, and have heard that many of these 'sales' are actually set up and the sale never actually happens. Therefore I don't trust anything I see on that show. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-11-2012 07:26 AM
I think that we have previously established above that Pawn Stars is a TV show and that many of the sales are contrived. I am now reading Rick Harrison's 2011 book "License to Pawn." The store is real and the owners are very real. I like this show for its entertainment value and I also learn something from every episode. That goes for Storage Wars, Storage Hunters, Antiques Roadshow and the many other similar shows on cable TV. It is a learning experience. |
Paul23
Member Posts: 836
From: South East, UK
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-17-2012 02:19 PM
For UK viewers I believe the episode with the purported Apollo 13 piece was broadcast last night. I presume it will be repeated at some point during the week for those that missed it. |
xlsteve
Member Posts: 393
From: Holbrook MA, USA
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-24-2012 10:49 AM
Last night, a kid brought in what he claimed was a piece of heat shield from Apollo 11. There's no video yet, but here's a summary of the episode. Mark Hall-Patton of the Clark County Museum System said that it was not part of Apollo 11, but that it was probably from an Apollo heat shield test. I tend to agree, but I'm a minor leaguer when it comes to this. I'll update this when video of the episode is available. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2747
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 01-24-2012 05:50 PM
Just saw the episode. The piece was supposedly found on a beach in Bermuda. I have been around a ton of honeycomb assemblies in my day and this looked like a piece of an aircraft floorboard or a wall panel. It did not look like a spacecraft item at all. |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1773
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 01-24-2012 06:54 PM
I tend to agree that it was not Apollo heat shield material. I think the producers of the show knew that as well, as the Pawn Stars did not even want to make an offer on it. If it was Apollo related it would be worth money regardless, so they saw no money in it. |
LM1
Member Posts: 839
From: New York, NY
Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-25-2012 09:44 AM
I agree. The Pawn Stars knew that it was not Apollo-related and that they could never confirm what it really is. It was the obligation of the seller to obtain more information about this heat shield material - perhaps from other witnesses or from NASA. You are right, if it is Apollo-related at all, it is worth a great deal to collectors. It could be sold in pieces either framed with photos of all the Apollo crews or in acrylic capsules. Question: If it could be traced to the Apollo Program, how much would you pay for a small sample mounted in an acrylic capsule? |
fredtrav
Member Posts: 1773
From: Birmingham AL
Registered: Aug 2010
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posted 01-25-2012 07:46 PM
The kid says it was found in the Bahamas, Apollo 11 splashed down in the Pacific. They did not seem to pick up on that. |
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