Topic: Apollo 11 recovery photo: Armstrong or Aldrin?
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-17-2019 09:19 AM
I have always seen this Navy recovery photo of an Apollo 11 astronaut in the rescue net identified as Neil Armstrong.
HS-4 helicopter 66 hoists astronaut Neil Armstrong aboard. (Photo by AWHC Norvel Wood, HS-4)
But I believe that is actually Buzz Aldrin, and here is why:
Photo MSFC-6900595 shows (left to right) Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong (waving) and Michael Collins exiting the Sea King Helicopter 66 in Hangar Bay 2 on the USS Hornet. Notice the face mask canisters. The white labels on the mask canisters are all in slightly different positions. The position of the white label on the canister that Aldrin is wearing is the only one that matches the position of the white label on the canister seen in the rescue net photo.
This indicates to me that the rescue net photo is Aldrin, not Armstrong.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-17-2019 09:05 PM
16mm film footage shows that this is the last Apollo 11 astronaut hoisted up to the helicopter. In the background is Helicopter 64, designated Swim 2.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-19-2019 08:55 AM
What was in the plastic bag?
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-20-2019 12:25 AM
The photograph in question is referenced in this article written by the photographer.
The caption identifies it as Armstrong.
While using the position of the gas mask canisters may help with individual identification, it may not be 100% accurate.
I have feeling that this has been discussed within these forums previously. Film footage taken from inside the MQF showing the astronauts entering assisted identifying each crew member.
I have previously believed that this image was a single frame from a remote mounted camera positioned to capture the winching operations.
SpaceSteve Member
Posts: 428 From: San Antonio TX, USA Registered: Apr 2004
posted 05-20-2019 03:45 AM
quote:Originally posted by LM-12: 16mm film footage shows that this is the last Apollo 11 astronaut hoisted up to the helicopter.
If that's the case, I believe protocol would dictate that it is Armstrong, as the commander is always the last one off the ship (or in this case, the last one out of the water).
ea757grrl Member
Posts: 732 From: South Carolina Registered: Jul 2006
posted 05-20-2019 05:34 AM
quote:Originally posted by oly: I have previously believed that this image was a single frame from a remote mounted camera positioned to capture the winching operations.
This is correct. The recovery helicopters had motion picture and still cameras mounted on either side of the starboard door to record recovery operations.
The aft cameras are readily apparent in photographs (you can just see the two motion picture cameras behind the astronaut in this photo), but the forward cameras are hard to see because they are invisible behind that big starboard sponson.
They were either automatically activated or fired from a remote system in the cabin, so nobody was hanging outside to get the photo - it was a mounted camera.
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
quote:Originally posted by SpaceSteve: I believe protocol would dictate that it is Armstrong, as the commander is always the last one off the ship (or in this case, the last one out of the water).
The first caption for the first image on this site describes Armstrong being the first astronaut to be recovered.
This image shows the yellow tape used to cover the camera power wires on the outside of the helicopter.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-20-2019 08:24 AM
quote:Originally posted by oly: The first caption for the first image on this site describes Armstrong being the first Astronaut to be recovered.
That is how I see it. Armstrong hoisted up first, then Collins, and Aldrin last.
Before the astronauts enter the raft, you can see something that looks like the plastic bag in the end of the raft where Aldrin sat. Armstrong sat at the opposite end of the raft. Collins was in the middle.
quote:Originally posted by SpaceSteve: I believe protocol would dictate that it is Armstrong, as the commander is always the last one off the ship.
It might be protocol, but that is not how it happened on this mission (and some others also, as listed on another thread). Armstrong was the first to egress the command module after splashdown. Collins mentions this in the debrief.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-22-2019 11:03 AM
quote:Originally posted by oly: Film footage taken from inside the MQF showing the astronauts entering assisted identifying each crew member.
Do you agree that footage shows the order they entered the MQF was Collins, Armstrong, Aldrin?
Jeff Member
Posts: 483 From: Fayetteville, NC, USA Registered: May 2009
posted 05-22-2019 03:53 PM
I just watched and paused the footage of the crew entering the MQF shot from the inside. Unless the crew were wearing each others BIGs, the order they entered is definitely Collins, Armstrong and Aldrin.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-22-2019 08:48 PM
That footage also gives us a good view of those mask canisters. Does anyone else think the rescue net photo is Aldrin?
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-22-2019 10:08 PM
Without knowing details about the gas masks, it would be drawing a long bow to use the position of the label on the canister as definitive proof.
Are the canisters locked into position and orientation on the gas mask, or can they be easily rotated. Did the astronauts adjust their masks in any way between the hoist from the ocean, and walking to the MQF? (Or did they even change masks?)
I have used gas masks that have canisters that screw onto the mask, some push on, and others that clip on. On the ones I use, the canisters can be rotated if you grasp the canister to adjust the mask, which is something you can sometimes want to do many times.
There is the possibility that the gas mask was knocked against something or someone during the helicopter ride, inside the net, or moved by the rotor wash, etc. If we can discount all of these possibilities, we may be able to come to a conclusion.
Seeing large copies of the original film that allows a better study of the details may help.
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-22-2019 10:22 PM
I had not seen this Apollo 14 image of the "Lilly Pad and Toad Stool" before.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-22-2019 10:55 PM
Their seat positions in the raft is also a big clue that, to me, points more to Aldrin rather than Armstrong as being the last astronaut hoisted up, and therefore the one in the photo.
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-22-2019 11:24 PM
Here is a colour film of the winching operation taken from the helicopter. The plastic bag is visible.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-23-2019 02:56 AM
Very familiar with that film clip. It's the one I referred to in the second post. I would say the Apollo 11 astronauts were hoisted up to the helicopter in the same order they egressed the command module: Armstrong, Collins, Aldrin.
As a side note, it sure looks like the second astronaut being hoisted up is not wearing a mission patch. I can see the mission patch on the third astronaut.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-23-2019 05:16 PM
Here is a video of the Apollo 11 recovery with some very detailed narration.
Navy Frogmen Clancy Hatleberg, Wes Chesser, Mike Mallory and John Wolfram help to rescue the Apollo 11 astronauts (Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, and Mike Collins) after they came back from the Moon.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-24-2019 08:50 PM
Apollo 11 recovery photo KSC-69P-654 has these different captions:
"Shown here is the recovery operation of the capsule in the Pacific Ocean after splashdown. One of the three astronauts is airlifted from the life raft into a helicopter."
"Buzz Aldrin is seen being hoisted into the recovery helicopter while Para rescue man Lt. Clancy Hatleberg remains behind in the life raft to assist in the spacecraft's recovery operation."
Two observations: The person in the raft looks more like one of the Navy divers, and not Hatleberg. The body position of the astronaut in the rescue net most resembles the body position of the last astronaut hoisted up to the helicopter.
What is the caption on the back of the 8x10 NASA photo?
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-25-2019 09:18 AM
Read the interesting caption for photo 8 in this gallery.
(Also note photo 3: a grainy Navy photo of the Apollo 11 command module at the moment of splashdown.)
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-26-2019 10:26 AM
Helicopter 53 seen in photo 8 was Swim 1. Helicopter 53 was hovering over the command module when it was in the Stable 2 position right after splashdown.
UDT divers Wolfram, Chesser and Mallory jumped into the water from Helicopter 64 (Swim 2). Hatleberg jumped into the water from Helicopter 66 (Recovery 1).
Here are some NavSource photos of the Apollo 11 recovery. I would say that:
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-26-2019 07:01 PM
The astronaut seating positioning within the hoist net, and how they hang on, matches these three photos with the order the order the crew are hoisted in the film.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-27-2019 08:44 AM
If the order the Apollo 11 astronauts were hoisted up to the helicopter was Armstrong, Collins and Aldrin, then the photo in the first post is definitely Aldrin.
Photo 8 mentioned earlier does say "Astronaut Neil Armstrong was hoisted first into a hovering chopper, then Michael Collins, then Buzz Aldrin" in the caption.
Does the book "Moon Men Return: USS Hornet and the Recovery of the Apollo 11 Astronauts" mention the order? (The photo of the command module looks reversed on that book cover.)
ea757grrl Member
Posts: 732 From: South Carolina Registered: Jul 2006
posted 05-27-2019 07:06 PM
"Moon Men Return" doesn't give the order in which the astronauts were hoisted aboard 66, or the order in which they disembarked.
"Hornet Plus Three" by Bob Fish says the sequence for hoisting the astronauts aboard the helicopter was likely Armstrong, Collins, and Aldrin. The disembarkation order Fish gives is Collins, Armstrong, then Aldrin.
Hornet's Apollo 11 Cruise Report does not give the astronauts' names in the recovery timeline.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 43576 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-27-2019 08:02 PM
In "Return to Earth" (1973), Buzz Aldrin writes about being second into the helo. He describes joining Collins in pacing about the cabin, trying to get their legs adjusted to gravity. Armstrong was then hoisted aboard, glanced over at what the two were doing and sat down.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-27-2019 09:17 PM
Aldrin states later in the book that Armstrong was leading when the helicopter door opened and they walked down the ramp. Wasn't Collins the first one out of the helicopter and leading the way? Surely that was Collins.
Aldrin also says they walked on a red carpet to the MQF. There was no red carpet.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-28-2019 12:29 AM
The photo in the first post is a cropped version apparently. Here is a larger version of that photo. Too bad the image is reversed.
moorouge Member
Posts: 2458 From: U.K. Registered: Jul 2009
posted 05-28-2019 12:53 AM
Surely all this shows is that not too much reliance should be placed on participant's recollection of events that are written long after the event itself.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-28-2019 12:57 AM
It is not impossible that Buzz Aldrin may have mis-remembered some details about the recovery. If he did, that is understandable.
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-28-2019 07:20 AM
Considering all the experiences that the astronauts had in their lives during the mission and during subsequent events, I think it is only fair that some deviation in the memories should be allowed.
oly Member
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 05-28-2019 07:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by LM-12: Too bad the image is reversed.
I have addressed the reversed image:
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-28-2019 10:39 AM
Much better. Thanks for correcting that.
If there are similar large hi-res images from that same camera of the first and second astronauts hoisted up, then we might be able to read their name tags.
There is a similar camera view of Jim Lovell in the rescue net (a bit lower) with the Apollo 13 command module in the background.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 06-02-2019 12:11 PM
I managed to capture a few frames from the recovery footage:
Posts: 971 From: Perth, Western Australia Registered: Apr 2015
posted 06-02-2019 08:23 PM
There is not enough data and detail captured is these screenshots to be able to recover any additional information. Perhaps higher resolution version images can be found elsewhere.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 06-03-2019 07:48 AM
I realise those are low-res images, but at least they show the body positions of the first two astronauts hoisted up to the helicopter.
The first two would be Collins and then Aldrin, as Aldrin remembers it.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 06-05-2019 12:26 PM
Interestingly, the Apollo 12 astronauts also wore BIGs during their recovery training.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 07-03-2019 09:55 PM
The book "First on the Moon" (1970) mentions that "Armstrong went up first, then Collins, then Aldrin" on page 359.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 07-24-2019 09:18 AM
From this 50th anniversary NASA article today about the Apollo 11 recovery:
The recovery helicopter one by one retrieved the three astronauts from the raft using a Billy Pugh net, first Armstrong, then Collins and finally Aldrin.
The article includes an inside photo of the Apollo 11 crew entering the MQF.
LM-12 Member
Posts: 3324 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
posted 05-17-2019 09:19 AM
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