Author
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Topic: Lunar surface training at NASA centers
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LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-15-2014 02:31 PM
Jim Lovell and Deke Slayton can be seen in this 1972 training photo taken at the Kennedy Space Center. Who is wearing the pressure suit?![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/KSC-72PC-0142.jpg) |
golddog Member Posts: 210 From: australia Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 11-16-2014 02:39 AM
LRV, and red stripes on the PGA, can only be either Scott, Young, or Cernan - or the back up commanders. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3111 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-16-2014 05:13 AM
Not Scott, but could only be Young, Cernan, or even Haise. |
Rick Mulheirn Member Posts: 4278 From: England Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 11-16-2014 05:22 AM
At first I thought it was Gene Cernan. His suit does not appear pristine and I have seen a number of pictures over the years that show Gene wearing Dave Scott's dust stained flown suit and a back-up PLSS with a cream betacloth cover... but I am sure it is John Young.The following image numbered KSC-72PC-0143 depicts Charlie Duke on the same training session; March 2nd, 1972. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-16-2014 07:42 AM
Thanks for that everyone. You can see Duke partially hidden behind Young. |
Delta7 Member Posts: 1588 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 11-16-2014 08:28 AM
quote: Originally posted by Ken Havekotte: Not Scott, but could only be Young, Cernan, or even Haise.
Scott was the backup commander of Apollo 17 until May 1972. So it could be him, but my guess is it's Young. |
J.L Member Posts: 682 From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA Registered: May 2005
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posted 11-16-2014 08:57 AM
That is definitely Young... March 2, 1972. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-16-2014 11:53 AM
I believe the Apollo 13 crew was the first to use the lunar surface training area, located behind what was then the Flight Crew Training Building.From this 2014 FCTB document: Between September 25 and December 27, 1969, NASA installed a simulation of the lunar surface, called the Lunar Surface Training Area, to the southeast of the FCTB (Figure No. A-13). Here, astronauts practiced conducting the experiments they were scheduled to perform while on the Moon (Figure No. A-14). They also trained with a one-gravity version of the Lunar Roving Vehicle over a roughly 1.1-mile course, playfully referred to as the 'rover racetrack' (Figure No. A-15). |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-17-2014 06:09 AM
It looks like Al Bean may have based his "Helping Hands" painting on this Apollo 17 training photo.![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap17-72-HC-699.jpg) |
APG85 Member Posts: 308 From: Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 11-17-2014 12:03 PM
I assume (judging by the document) that virtually nothing remains of the training area today? |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-18-2014 01:21 AM
quote: Originally posted by Rick Mulheirn: I have seen a number of pictures over the years that show Gene wearing Dave Scott's dust stained flown suit
The best photo I have seen showing that is KSC-72PC-347.![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap17-KSC-72PC-347.jpg) How many astronauts trained to walk on the moon? By my count, it was 16. That includes Lovell, Haise, Engle and Gordon. |
Delta7 Member Posts: 1588 From: Bluffton IN USA Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 11-18-2014 08:14 AM
quote: Originally posted by LM-12: How many astronauts trained to walk on the moon?
If you mean those that were assigned to a two-man lunar landing crew as prime and/or backup, the count is 16:Group 1: Shepard. Group 2: Armstrong, Conrad, Lovell, Young. Group 3: Aldrin, Bean, Cernan, Gordon, Scott. Group 4: Schmitt. Group 5: Duke, Engle, Haise, Irwin, Mitchell. * *Carr was briefly assigned with Haise on the Apollo 16 backup crew, but never officially announced. |
Fra Mauro Member Posts: 1698 From: Bethpage, N.Y. Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-18-2014 08:19 AM
It's hard to believe that they used a suit that was on the Moon for training purposes. I guess budget realities took priority over history. |
APG85 Member Posts: 308 From: Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 11-18-2014 09:27 AM
There's been a lot of discussions about the use of that flown suit for training. I believe you can see the effects that the wear and tear of training had on it as it looks today... |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-18-2014 10:05 AM
Some of those 16 astronauts trained for three moonwalks.This Apollo 15 training area photo shows a structure in the background. Might that be the wooden Boresite Range Tower where the Gemini and Agena spacecraft docking exercises were done? ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap15-71-HC-729.jpg) |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-18-2014 11:57 PM
This webpage has an April 1972 Spaceport News article about the Lunar Surface Training Area at KSC. At launch time, Young and Duke will have each spent approximately 500 hours on lunar science training, 150 hours of which will have been spent at the Spaceport's Lunar Surface Training Area. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 11-22-2014 12:03 PM
quote: Originally posted by J.L: That is definitely Young... March 2, 1972.
That was a good month for Deke Slayton. From his NASA biography: Slayton was restored to full flight status and certified eligible for manned space flights in March 1972, following a comprehensive review of his medical status by NASA's Director of Life Sciences and the Federal Aviation Agency. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 12-18-2014 04:04 PM
This image is one of the Apollo 16 crew photos taken on that same day at the Lunar Surface Training Area. The schedule for March 2 included EVA 2 and 3 training for Young and Duke, and KC-135 training for Mattingly. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap16-KSC-72PC-135.jpg) |
Fra Mauro Member Posts: 1698 From: Bethpage, N.Y. Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 12-18-2014 05:49 PM
Looks like it was taken the same day as the cover photo for TV Guide. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 12-19-2014 09:08 AM
Here is that cover photo for comparison. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/a16tvguide.jpg) Are the umbilicals crossed on John Young's suit? One connector is an inlet, and the other is an outlet. You can see him better in this high-res photo. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap16-KSC-72PC-133HR.jpg) |
Ronpur Member Posts: 1230 From: Brandon, Fl Registered: May 2012
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posted 12-20-2014 02:28 PM
Thanks, missed that, obviously.
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LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 12-21-2014 08:40 AM
Golf balls on the moon were preceded by a football at the training area as seen in this Apollo 14 photo of Shepard and Mitchell.![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap14-football.jpg) |
Rick Mulheirn Member Posts: 4278 From: England Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 12-21-2014 11:54 AM
...not to mention an Armadillo! |
Ronpur Member Posts: 1230 From: Brandon, Fl Registered: May 2012
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posted 12-24-2014 06:32 AM
quote: Originally posted by APG85: I assume (judging by the document) that virtually nothing remains of the training area today?
I wish they would have pointed that area out when the tours used to go to the crew training building. Even though there is a lot of sand around Florida, it would have been cool to walk on THAT sand! |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 12-24-2014 10:24 AM
Photo dates have both the Apollo 15 prime and backup CDR/LMP suited up in the Lunar Surface Training Area on the same day. Photo 71-HC-731 shows Scott and Irwin. Photo 71-H-1124 shows Gordon and Schmitt. Both photos are dated 14 May 1971. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap15-71-HC-731.jpg) ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap15-71-H-1124.jpg)
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J.L Member Posts: 682 From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA Registered: May 2005
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posted 12-24-2014 04:51 PM
Note "released" on May 14, 1971. Dates on NASA HQ images (H/HC) are rarely correct. KSC would forward prints or negatives of KSC activities to HQ for them to release as well. The date many times would reflect the day that they (HQ) released the print, not necessarily when it was taken. This is not always the case, but it is more often than not.The prime crew for Apollo 15 suited-up and went through some EVA training for the press with the LRV mock-up on May 11. This was the same day as the rollout.
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LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 12-24-2014 05:29 PM
If I am reading the training schedule correctly, Gordon and Schmitt were suited up for EVA #1 training on May 14. Scott and Irwin were in Houston. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-07-2015 10:42 PM
Photo KSC-70PC-487 shows Apollo 14 backup LMP Joe Engle suited up at the KSC lunar surface training area in 1970.![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/ap14-KSC-70PC-487.jpg) According to the ALSJ suit serial numbers chart, his Apollo 14 training suit (#015) is the same suit that Rusty Schweickart wore (#015) on Apollo 9 in 1969. So is Engle wearing a flown EVA suit in the photo? |
hlbjr Member Posts: 499 From: Delray Beach Florida USA Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 01-10-2015 08:12 AM
And in the background in photo KSC-70PC-487 is the fabled Gemini astronaut suit up trailer in front of the Flight Crew Training Building. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 01-25-2015 08:59 AM
Some post-flight comments by Dave Scott and Jim Irwin about time spent at the lunar surface training area: SCOTT: One-g walkthroughs. The rock pile. We've discussed this, particularly on the way back. I don't think we would have traded any one minute of that, particularly the suited operations. That really prepared us for the surface work. There were some suggestions toward the end that we run shirtsleeve. We both decided to run suited up to the end, and I'm glad we did. I think every exercise we had out there in suits was well worthwhile. IRWIN: The work on the lunar surface was not much different from what we experienced on the rock pile. We didn't sweat as much, but it seemed like the work was about the same. SCOTT: If we could get LCGs in the training suits, and the training backpacks, we'd have an excellent simulation of the lunar surface, in spite of the fact that you'd have the heavy backpacks. That was excellent training. I agree with Jim. The surface operations were not too much different from what we'd experienced on the rock pile. You gain an awful lot by going out there and working on the rock pile back of the simulator building. The addition of the geology stops there at the Cape is good. We didn't have the opportunity to exercise all those rocks they'd put out there for us, but I think the following crews will find it very useful to drive the Rover and go through the procedures of getting off the Rover and doing the geology, the sequence of events with the high gain antenna, the LCRU, and everything. It was very good training. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-03-2015 01:42 PM
This Apollo Program Summary Report table shows that Apollo 15 had by far the most lunar surface activity training sessions. |
mach3valkyrie Member Posts: 720 From: Albany, Oregon Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 02-06-2015 03:01 PM
Does the same report list the dates and places of the geology field trips? I know some were in Central Oregon, south of Bend, but in the '60's. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 02-06-2015 03:45 PM
The APSR doesn't seem to go into those details. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-29-2015 12:30 AM
This undated gag photo apparently shows James Lovell suited up in the training area. (Heritage Auctions has the autographed photo in their May 22 auction.)![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/lm12/apollo13_gagphoto01.jpg) |
Rick Mulheirn Member Posts: 4278 From: England Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 04-29-2015 03:29 AM
Anybody a notion where I might find the original gag image in hi res... what with Jim Lovell's appearance in the UK later in the year? |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3111 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-29-2015 04:32 AM
The gag photo referred to here was shown to Lovell several years ago, however, he told me it wasn't him! I thought perhaps it was Haise (nope it wasn't) or a backup Apollo 13 crewman (either Young or Duke) "jokingly trying" to be the commander of the mission. I never did ask Duke, but will do so next time I see him. Any other thoughts?
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LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-29-2015 04:44 AM
Does the Lovell signature look authentic?Also, it might be an Apollo 14 training photo. |
Ken Havekotte Member Posts: 3111 From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-29-2015 12:21 PM
Yes, indeed, the Lovell signature and inscription are authentic. And if I recall, the time-frame on the picture was early 1970 with an Apollo 13 reference. |
LM-12 Member Posts: 3515 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: Oct 2010
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posted 04-30-2015 08:03 AM
I don't recall seeing that red marking, whatever it is, on any other LEVA helmet. |
J.L Member Posts: 682 From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA Registered: May 2005
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posted 04-30-2015 09:34 AM
It is a small ribbon... goes along with the garters. |