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Author
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Topic: Who should've made a moon landing but didn't?
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kking
Member Posts: 106
From: Topmost, KY
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 01-19-2011 02:38 PM
   
For me. Joe Engle is at the top. He was on the original Apollo 17 crew, and Thanks to in DC who canceled Apollo missions bumped him so Jack Schmitt could fly.Next would have to be Apollo 13 Lovell and Haise. They should have reflown on Apollo 14. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-19-2011 03:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
In retrospect, it might appear the Apollo 13 was never given a chance, knowing that a defect lay hidden within the heater on the O2 tank. But at the time, they undertook the mission knowing there was risk that the equipment ultimately wouldn't perform as expected.
Surely you don't mean this. Apollo 13 was launched as a fully functional vehicle with no faults. The fault was only discovered when all the data resulting from the explosion had been analysed. |
golddog
Member Posts: 210
From: australia
Registered: Feb 2008
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posted 01-19-2011 05:52 PM
For mine, Mike Collins. As the best author (IMHO) of all the astronauts, I would love to have read his descriptions of walking the lunar surface. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-19-2011 08:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Surely you don't mean this. Apollo 13 was launched as a fully functional vehicle with no faults.
You must have missed me say "in retrospect, it might appear..." I didn't say that they knowingly launched Apollo 13 with known major faults in the O2 tank heater that could have jeopardized the mission. However, they were aware the tank had been dropped at one point and were aware of the possibility that damage had occurred to the tank. But they thought the damage was not severe enough to jeopardize the mission or the crew. I will disagree that your statement that Apollo 13 was launched with no faults. To many, it may have appeared that it was launched with no faults, but that doesn't make it true. Every launch vehical has/had some faults...some of which were known at the time of launch and some of which were unknown. Unfortunately, some of those faults don't present themselves until they bite you in the ass. Even today, the shuttle often launches with faults that have been identified prior to launch, but are often allowed to go unfixed if those faults do not appear to jeopardize the safety of the crew or compromise the success of the mission. That's why NASA holds meetings discussing the rationale for flight once a problem has been identified. Sometimes they determine the problem needs to be fixed before launch. Sometimes they decide the mission can proceed without a fix. Every mission has a degree of calculated risk. You can't eliminate 100% of the risk, just as you can't make a vehical with 0% faults. It simply doesn't happen. |
Go4Launch
Member Posts: 549
From: Seminole, Fla.
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 01-19-2011 09:49 PM
Slightly earlier than the Apollo era, but isn't the answer...Alice Kramden? |
J.L
Member Posts: 681
From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-19-2011 09:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Go4Launch:
Slightly earlier than the Apollo era, but isn't the answer...Alice Kramden?
Brilliant! |
WAWalsh
Member Posts: 809
From: Cortlandt Manor, NY
Registered: May 2000
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posted 01-20-2011 10:29 AM
Much discussion of the usual suspects and part of that always tends to go towards the guys we might have met or know a little better. Within the group of the usual suspects, still unmentioned, would be Al Worden or Ken Mattingly.Two alternative ideas. 1) Story Musgrave. He was in the program at the time. His medical degree might have opened up other possibilities, while he could have been another to provide continuity between programs. 2) A. Leonov. Imagine if the US had decided to defer costs for Apollo 18 and 19 by making them international missions (rather than doing the same with ASTP). What an interesting Apollo 18 crew of Gordon, Engle and Leonov would have been. |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 01-20-2011 10:43 AM
I would also add Charlie Bassett to my list. He really got a raw deal basically being flown to his demise in the rear seat of a T-38. At the time of his death, he had unofficially been chosen as Senior Pilot (CMP) on Frank Borman's Apollo crew. Had the crash on Feb. 28 1966 not occurred, assuming all other things remaining the same, he likely would have flown his 2nd mission as CMP on Apollo 8. There is every reason to believe that, given the rotation system put in place by Deke Slayton, Bassett would subsequently have been named as backup CDR of Apollo 11, putting him directly in line to command a lunar landing afterward, most likely Apollo 14. Of course, the See/Bassett incident NOT having happened would have made a significant difference in who flew what mission, but the Apollo fire and sequence of missions themselves would not have changed as a result. |
music_space
Member Posts: 1179
From: Canada
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-20-2011 05:52 PM
I just found out at the Air & Space website a video excerpt where Haise discusses his loss versus the good of the program, at 2m38s. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-20-2011 07:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Go4Launch:
Slightly earlier than the Apollo era, but isn't the answer...Alice Kramden?
Perhaps Jose Jimenez? |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-20-2011 07:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by WAWalsh:
A. Leonov. Imagine if the US had decided to defer costs for Apollo 18 and 19 by making them international missions (rather than doing the same with ASTP). What an interesting Apollo 18 crew of Gordon, Engle and Leonov would have been.
That's a brilliant idea. It would never have gotten off the ground politically but wow - that would have been one for the books. |
davidcwagner
Member Posts: 810
From: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 01-20-2011 08:18 PM
John Glenn would have been a great moonwalker! |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-21-2011 03:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Obviousman:
Perhaps Jose Jimenez?
Ooooh! I hope not!  |
Apollo Redux
Member Posts: 346
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Registered: Sep 2006
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posted 01-21-2011 07:12 PM
Lovell, Haise, Gordon, Collins.Collins took himself out, but it would have made some nice symmetry. |
APG85
Member Posts: 307
From:
Registered: Jan 2008
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posted 01-22-2011 07:15 AM
I always thought Walt Cunningham would have made a great Moon Walker. With his writing abilities, I would have liked to have read his account of the experience... |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-22-2011 07:52 AM
I always figured Joe Engle should have made the trip. Lovell, Haise, perhaps even Dick Gordon and some of the others had their chance at a mission.But Joe Engle put the hard work in as a backup crew member and his prime mission number had come up only to be bumped. Not that NASA was wrong to send Jack Schmitt. To have a flight qualified geologist, ready and not fly him may have been almost criminal. But to pay your dues and then get bumped out... its really too bad. I have read rumors that Engle's work ethic in the sims was not always good. But if NASA had really had a problem with Engle they would not have assigned him to ALT and command of STS-2 and STS-51I. |
MCroft04
Member Posts: 1647
From: Smithfield, Me, USA
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-22-2011 05:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by alanh_7:
But to pay your dues and then get bumped out... its really too bad. I have read rumors that Engle's work ethic in the sims was not always good. But if NASA had really had a problem with Engle they would not have assigned him to ALT and command of STS-2 and STS-51I.
I've never met Joe Engle and I'm sure he's a fine person, but one of the moonwalkers told me that in his opinion Engle didn't work as hard he could have, i.e. Schmitt worked harder. But I agree NASA would not have recommended him to fly had he not been qualified. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2178
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 01-22-2011 07:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MCroft04:
I've never met Joe Engle ... But I agree NASA would not have recommended him to fly had he not been qualified.
Well, he was already an astronaut (X-15), for criminy's sake!!! I think he could have handled the job ... |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-22-2011 09:18 PM
I think the reason Joe Engle was replaced was more political than his work ethic. NASA was catching it from the scientific community because they had a scientist/astronaut ready to fly and there was only one mission left for them to do so.I have also heard suggestions that his work ethic MAY have been a factor. Yet Engle was not replaced over work ethics or skills. Had Apollo 18 not been cancelled, NASA would have left Engle on the 17 crew and he would have gone to the moon. |
Skylon
Member Posts: 277
From:
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 01-23-2011 10:50 AM
The closest I saw to accusing Joe Engle of not "working hard" was Deke Slayton's observation that he seemed uninterested in rendezvous, when citing his few weaknesses as an astronaut. Which may be how he ended up as an LMP instead of as a CMP. That's not really damning. Regardless Slayton felt him better suited for Apollo 17 and put him through as LMP. The scientific community (and NASA HQ) however was convinced they needed to get one geologist to the Moon. Slayton's reason for assigning Schmitt to Apollo 18 also always sounded like a combination of political pressure and operational opinion. He stated that he figured by the time of Apollo 18 they'd have a good enough handle on lunar landings to fly Schmitt. In other words, he felt by the eighth landing attempt, they'd have enough issues ironed out to give the LMP seat to a scientist versus a test pilot.
What's remarkable about Engle is the way it seems like he took it. Without Apollo 17 he seems to have made no effort at landing a flight like ASTP. He went straight for Shuttle development. I think Engle, as a genuine "stick and rudder" guy may have just been interested in Apollo for the lunar program...the chance to walk on the Moon. Without that, his focus returned to the "real piloting"...the Shuttle would have seemed like the natural evolution of the X-15 he'd previously flown. Something he may have had simply more interest in as a pilot. |
astro-nut
Member Posts: 970
From: Washington, IL
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 01-23-2011 04:18 PM
I would like to have seen Edward White, Joe Engle and Jack Lousma walk on the moon. I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Engle and I talked to him about being bumped off Apollo 17 and he was very honest and sincere with his answers. I saw no bitterness with his answers and he spoke highly of Jack Schmitt. I am sure that Joe Engle was more than qualified to be the LEM pilot for Apollo 17 or any other Apollo flight. Thank you. |
Rob Joyner
Member Posts: 1308
From: GA, USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 01-23-2011 04:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by davidcwagner:
John Glenn would have been a great moonwalker!
I agree. Then most of the general public asked to name another Moonwalker besides Armstrong and Aldrin would be right!  |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 01-23-2011 05:29 PM
I have always felt Tom Stafford should have got a shot. Few astronauts have done more for the program than General Stafford. |
atlas5guy
Member Posts: 33
From:
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 01-23-2011 05:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Go4Launch:
Slightly earlier than the Apollo era, but isn't the answer...Alice Kramden?
In a way she did go to the moon. When NASA ran the 'send your name to the moon' feature for the Lunar Reconnaissance Mission, I added Alice Kramden to the list... |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-24-2011 10:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
The closest I saw to accusing Joe Engle of not "working hard" was Deke Slayton's observation that he seemed uninterested in rendezvous, when citing his few weaknesses as an astronaut. Which may be how he ended up as an LMP instead of as a CMP. That's not really damning.
Gene Cernan makes a point in his book of saying that Engle had a bit of a problem in that he was so good he often looked "bored" in the sims which many outside observers took the wrong way. He also mentions that there was some discussion of bumping Mitchell for Engle on Apollo 14 in the period during which Mitchell was balking at the 16 backup job and continually trying to get ESP experiments approved. Cernan says he regrets he didn't campaign harder to move Engle onto 14 at the time had he been able to see into the future. |
webhamster
Member Posts: 106
From: Ottawa, Canada
Registered: Jul 2008
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posted 01-24-2011 10:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by alanh_7:
I have always felt Tom Stafford should have got a shot. Few astronauts have done more for the program than General Stafford.
I honestly think Stafford had a chance but opted not to take it. I'm fairly certain he could have walked into Slayton's office and said "I want a moon landing" and he would've gotten one. In his book he makes the point that walking on the moon wasn't a goal and taking over the Astronaut Office was more appealing to him at the time because he wanted management experience and that was the equivalent of a squadron command. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 01-24-2011 01:10 PM
This is all rather sexist. Why are only males mentioned? Which women should have walked on the Moon but didn't? Had NASA been more flexible about selection in the Mercury days, wouldn't Jerri Cobb been a strong candidate? And would it have been a mixed crew that took her there? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 01-24-2011 01:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
What's remarkable about Engle is the way it seems like he took it. Without Apollo 17 he seems to have made no effort at landing a flight like ASTP. He went straight for Shuttle development.
ASTP was essentially a political exercise, which didn't suit everyone's interests. By the time of that flight, ALT was a much more attractive and interesting option for a test pilot. If you talk to Fred Haise, he'll tell you that he's much more proud of his ALT flights than he is of Apollo 13. |
onesmallstep
Member Posts: 1313
From: Staten Island, New York USA
Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 01-25-2011 04:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Skylon:
...his focus returned to the 'real piloting' ...the Shuttle would have seemed like the natural evolution of the X-15 he'd previously flown. Something he may have had simply more interest in as a pilot.
This is certainly true, as he showed his skills on STS-2 by manually taking control of Columbia for most of its reentry maneuvers, a feat not accomplished since then by any shuttle commander. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4208
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 01-25-2011 04:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by webhamster:
He also mentions that there was some discussion of bumping Mitchell for Engle on Apollo 14 in the period during which Mitchell was balking at the 16 backup job and continually trying to get ESP experiments approved.
It is worth reminding readers that Mitchell, along with Haise, was regarded as a LM specialist probably better qualified to fly the LM than any other astronaut. Shepard is reported as saying he was glad Micthell was his LMP as he wanted to get home.Given Shepard's lack of training time (why he was bumped from 13 to 14) Mitchell's position as his LMP over Engle was in my opinion pretty secure. |
Obviousman
Member Posts: 438
From: NSW, Australia
Registered: May 2005
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posted 01-25-2011 10:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
Had NASA been more flexible about selection in the Mercury days, wouldn't Jerri Cobb been a strong candidate? And would it have been a mixed crew that took her there?
That's a good point; if you have read Promised the Moon , there were some great candidates there.
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John K. Rochester
Member Posts: 1292
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 01-26-2011 06:49 PM
Maxime Faget, the best designer of spacecraft ever. Tom Kelly, could have followed one of his "children" to the surface. |
carmelo
Member Posts: 1051
From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 01-30-2011 10:34 PM
Bruce McCandless. Is a pity that had wait 14 years for fly. I would see LMP on Apollo 15, or 16. |
Captain Apollo
Member Posts: 260
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 02-12-2011 08:49 AM
Anyone help a European out - Alice Kramden? I googled and the reference is to the Honeymooners, but why the Moon? |
Delta7
Member Posts: 1527
From: Bluffton IN USA
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 02-12-2011 08:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Captain Apollo:
Anyone help a European out - Alice Kramden? I googled and the reference is to the Honeymooners, but why the Moon?
One of Ralph Kramden's favorite expressions when he was mad at his wife Alice was "You're goin' to the moon Alice!", usually followed by a "BANG! ZOOM" and a punching motion with closed fist. Done in a humorous way of course, Ralph usually being the one who was being the real idiot resulting in a sarcastic remark from Alice.  |
mikej
Member Posts: 481
From: Germantown, WI USA
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 02-12-2011 05:31 PM
The Onion, a satirical newspaper, had an InfoGraphic about people living on the moon. The facilities of the propose moon base included the "Alice Kramden Memorial Domestic Violence Shelter". |
Duke Of URL
Member Posts: 1316
From: Syracuse, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 04-03-2011 04:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ambrous:
When you take look at the astronauts of the period, only Cooper of groups 1 and 2 did not get offered a chance, retire/die before being offered or declined a spot in the rotation.
I believe Carpenter was medically ineligible due to an accident while he was in Bermuda for Sealab. |
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