Posts: 18
From: Lakewood, CO USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 12-23-2009 07:45 PM               

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It seems to me the commander was the one in control of the Lunar Module on the descent to the moon. So the term Lunar Module Pilot (LMP) is a little confusing to me.

Is the LMP title for take off and rendezvous? How about when the spacecraft are first docked (not sure of the term) coming out from the rocket?

Were the LMPs trained to land? Were any of the LMPs in control during descent?

Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008

posted 12-23-2009 08:14 PM               

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The name Lunar Module Pilot may be a little misleading. Perhaps Lunar Module Co-pilot might have been better. Though LMPs were capable of piloting the Lunar Module, to My knowledge the only LMP who ever actually did was Alan Bean on the far side of the moon following Lunar liftoff during the Apollo 12 mission. Wishing to share the experience, Pete Conrad offered the controls so Bean could briefly fly the vehicle.

I may be wrong but to the best of my knowledge Bean is the only one LMP who ever did. Anyone else shed some light?

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From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006

posted 12-23-2009 09:16 PM               

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The LMP title continued a tradition started in Gemini. The "Right Stuff" test pilot astronauts weren't about to settle for any kind of titles that inferred a secondary role or seemingly impugned a crewman's ability to fly the vehicle. So in Gemini, the roles were assigned as Command Pilot (who in reality did all the flying) and Pilot.

That naming tradition continues today with the Shuttle, in which the Commander still does almost all of the flying and the Pilot has a more operational role. Similar to the Conrad/Bean story (but more public), in the last Shuttle mission, you could hear on the coverage of the final phase of the landing that the Commander turned over control of the vehicle to the Pilot for a few seconds.

Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 12-23-2009 09:22 PM               

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And the reason why there were LMPs on Apollo 7 and 8, even though there were no LMs.

For Apollo 1, there was Command Pilot, Senior Pilot, and Pilot.

So there you go...

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From: Greensboro, NC USA
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posted 12-24-2009 11:23 AM               

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At dinner at the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation's autograph show, I asked Charlie Duke about piloting the LM in sims, and if he had ever flown the LLTV "flying bedstead" (he had not).

I asked him about training to fly the LM and was it in case the CDR were to become incapacitated. He said that most of the sims were related to what happened if the CDR's controls malfunctioned. They would do things like have one of the CDR's control sticks go out, e.g. so that Young used the translation/thrust controller and Duke operated the attitude controller from his station. There were also sims where the CDR's controls completely went out during approach, in which case Duke would fly the controls and Young would call out the spot through the Landing Point Designator (LPD), which was only etched on the CDR's window.

Posts: 4208
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 12-24-2009 07:24 PM               

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quote:

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Originally posted by garymilgrom:
Rick - how do you know Ed flew the LM, and what makes you suspect others did too?

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I asked him not so long ago. From memory he responded with something along the lines of "Oh sure....we played around with the LEM; we were test pilots after all".

What is more Ed Mitchell (and Fred Haise) was a Lunar Module specialist. Shepard was slipped to Apollo 14 from 13 to allow Mitchell more time to bring Shepard up to speed with the Lunar Module.

And I suspect the camaraderie between the crews, the astronaut ego or "Right Stuff" and flight experience of the majority on LMPs the thought of the LMP NOT flying the LEM at some point is difficult to believe regardless of the mission rules.

Posts: 802
From: Columbus, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2002

posted 12-24-2009 08:12 PM               

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During the Apollo 1 comms, the crew members refer to themselves as "Command Pilot," "Senior Pilot," and "Pilot."

So those designations were in effect for a time.

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From: Peterborough, England
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posted 12-29-2009 07:54 AM               

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When the CDR and LMP were exploring the moon was the LMP still referred to as LMP?

On a similar note, was there a specific reason why the CDR drove the rover? If the CDR piloted the LM, wonder if the LMPs suggested they did the car driving?

Posts: 3117
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 12-29-2009 10:16 AM               

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I guess when it comes down to it the guy in charge - the CDR - wasn't going to allocate one of the most interesting and fun tasks on the mission to the other guy. Hence, the CDR got to drive the rover.

You could also look at it another way and say driving the rover was a risky and skillful task that was key to the success of the mission so it was up to the CDR to take that heavy responsibility on his own shoulders.

But let's face it that's ... looking for a family-friendly term to use here... stretching credibility just a little too far.

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From: Lincolnshire IL USA
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posted 05-27-2010 06:39 AM               

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The lunar module (LM) flew on 9 missions during Project Apollo (in earth orbit on Apollo 9, around the moon on Apollo 10 and 13, and to the surface on Apollo 12, 14, 15, 16, and 7).

Nine astronauts had the title "lunar module pilot" (LMP) on missions where there was a lunar module -- Rusty Schweickart, Gene Cernan, Buzz Aldrin, Alan Bean, Fred Haise, Ed Mitchell, Charlie Duke and Harrison (Jack) Schmitt.

Did any of the lunar module pilots actually "fly" the LM in the sense of using the hand controllers to maneuver the LM? Did any of the lunar module pilots train on the LLRV -- the "flying bedstead" used to train for landings?

Was it the commanders who actually flew the LM, and the title of lunar module pilot was a misnomer?

Editor's note: Threads merged.

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From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007

posted 05-27-2010 06:39 AM               

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It goes back to that old "Commander" and "Pilot" title from the Gemini days as no astronaut with ego the size of Texas wants to be called a "co-pilot". Hence the LMP title instead of "flight engineer" which is what they were pretty much. But they had backup hand controllers in case the primaries failed and all trained in simulators to fly the LM.

It has been documented that Pete Conrad let Al Bean take control of A12s LM on the back side of the moon after ascent and before docking with the CSM. Both crewmembers were backups for Apollo 9 though, which was a test of the LM in orbit. As such, both had more knowledge on LM systems then some of the subsequent crews. I am pretty certain the Rusty got to try out the LM controls on Apollo 9 since it was a shakedown of the LM systems and the LMP controls are part of that as they likely may have tested contingency plans just to see how things worked. As for Apollo 10, Gene Cernan makes no mention if he did anything like that during the ride in Snoopy (another test of the LM, albeit more a dress rehearsal rather then a LM shakedown).

Now for the backup crew of Apollo 15 (prime for 18) Dick Gordon was notorious for getting as much stick time as he could in the LM simulator. So even if the sim supervisors would shut down his controls so Harrison Schmidt could fly it down, he would just smile and walk over to the other side of the sim cabin, nudging "Dr. Rock" out of the way and continuing the descent.

As for the LLRV (was it the RV, I recall it was the LLTV), I remember reading somewhere that Bill Anders flew it. Granted he was never on a mission with an LM, but before Borman's crew got assigned to Apollo 8 as a flight around the moon, it was supposed to be a second LM test after what became Apollo 9 (originally assigned as Apollo 8 until the delivery schedule of LM-3 began to slip). So he was trained as a full LMP, same as the others who flew after him.

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From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: Oct 2010

posted 11-09-2011 11:23 AM            

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Did the LMP ever drive the LRV on the lunar surface - even just for a brief period? NASA photo S72-33685 shows Charlie Duke in the left-hand seat during training. Maybe the photo description is incorrect.

Editor's note: Threads merged.

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From: Lancefield, Victoria, Australia
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posted 03-05-2013 12:44 AM               

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"Playing around..." with the LM is not exactly flying the LM. It sounds to me Mitchell is hedging his answer. It would seem that the only evidence of a LMP actually flying the LM goes to Al Bean.

There is the story of Dick Gordon pushing Jack out of the way in the sim when the Commander's controls were made unserviceable. Then on exiting the sim he commented "tried to let Jack land didn't you..."

And by the way... I told my wife about this thread and the fact that none of the astronauts would let themselves be labeled as co-pilots. She said, "It's the same reason there are no 'small' sized prophylactics sold in the US." They're labelled 'slim fit' in Australia

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From:
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posted 03-06-2013 08:40 AM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by ilbasso:
I told my wife about this thread and the fact that none of the astronauts would let themselves be labeled as co-pilots. She said, "It's the same reason there are no 'small' sized prophylactics sold in the US."

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You may remember the segment in "Moon Machines" where the engineer was explaining the condom-type device used for urine collection. They had to change the sizes from Small, Medium and Large to Large, Extra Large and Huge.

These guys were doing cutting-edge, dangerous work for us, so massaging their egos a bit was a small price to pay.