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Author
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Topic: Finding Apollo: What the moonwalkers left behind
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-18-2008 11:17 PM
   
Air & Space Magazine: Finding Apollo The flag is probably gone. Buzz Aldrin saw it knocked over by the rocket blast as he and Neil Armstrong left the moon 39 summers ago. Lying there in the lunar dust, unprotected from the sun's harsh ultraviolet rays, the flag's red and blue would have bleached white in no time. Over the years, the nylon would have turned brittle and disintegrated.Dennis Lacarrubba, whose New Jersey-based company, Annin, made the flag and sold it to NASA for $5.50 in 1969, considers what might happen to an ordinary nylon flag left outside for 39 years on Earth, let alone on the moon. He thinks for a few seconds. "I can't believe there would be anything left," he concludes. "I gotta be honest with you. It's gonna be ashes." There are other signs of aging at Tranquillity Base. The shiny gold foil on the base of the lunar lander is shiny no more -- it would have darkened and flaked away long ago. The once-white life support backpacks, tossed out unceremoniously after Armstrong and Aldrin made their brief spacewalks, have likely turned yellow. The TV camera, the seismometer, the discarded hammer -- anything made of glass or metal -- are probably okay. And the famous bootprints? They may still be as crisp as the day they were made. Or, they may have the thinnest coating of dust from small grains moving around continually on the lunar surface. The truth is, no one knows exactly what the Apollo landing sites will look like after four decades. Nobody thought it would take us this long to go back. And now we are. For more about the lunar missions mentioned in the article, see: |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1940
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 07-19-2008 05:47 AM
This actually addresses something I was wondering just in the last few days. During one of the Science Channel's "Moon Machines" documentaries (the one on Navigation), one of the software technicians said that he liked the fact that code he wrote is still on the moon. Really? I'm sure that somewhere there is an exhaustive list, but could someone tell me what was left behind in that LEM stage on each mission? I always thought it was pretty much just landing gear and descent engine. Was there other hardware and software not needed anymore and discarded? Scattered around the landing sites is EVA equipment like PLSSs, tools, instruments, and the flag. Oh, and later missions left rovers. Did anything else usually get left behind besides personal, unique items like golf balls, photos, etc.? |
nasamad
Member Posts: 2141
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-19-2008 06:16 AM
Maybe the guy wrote some of the code onboard the EASEP / ALSEP's. They had software in them for transmitting/receiving the data back to/from Earth and self diagnostic reasons. |
jasonelam
Member Posts: 691
From: Monticello, KY USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 07-19-2008 06:19 AM
I believe what the software tech is saying is that his software is part of the remains of the ascent stages that were crashed into the moon after the astronauts returned to the command module. Every mission after Apollo 11 (with the exception of course of Apollo 13) deliberately crashed their ascent stage into the moon to see what kind of data could be received from the seismometers at the other landing sites.Each landing site is different of course, but some of the things that have been left include: - two golf balls and a six iron head (Apollo 14)
- a plaque commemorating fallen astronauts, a figurine called "the fallen astronaut" and a small Bible left on the control panel of the lunar rover (Apollo 15)
- a picture of Charlie Duke and his family (Apollo 16)
- the letters "TLC", written into the dust by Gene Cernan for his daughter (Apollo 17).
...and my personal fave: - a Hasselblad timer that would have taken some interesting pictures of Pete and Al on the surface (Apollo 12).
Not to mention food bags and other gear that was thrown out of the Ascent Stages after the last EVAs. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-19-2008 09:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jasonelam:
two golf balls and a six iron head
The golf balls are still there, but the six iron head was brought back to Earth. |
Spacepsycho
Member Posts: 819
From: Huntington Beach, Calif.
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 07-19-2008 10:09 AM
How about the Apollo 11 silicon disk that Tahir wrote an outstanding book about. Then there are the Hasselblad cameras & lenses and at least 1 70mm exposed film back accidentally left behind. A pair of gold Navy wings, a UV telescope, a silver astronaut pin, a Falcon feather, a geology hammer and a USAF 25th anniv medal. I'm also guessing there are a few used fecal & urine bags, as well as used spacesuit diapers. I think I also read that earlier flights not doing deep space EVAs, threw out their helmet covers, those very cool lunar boots and manuals not necessary for ascent. When I do presentations to kids, I explain that weight was so vitally important, that the engineers were measuring everything to the ounce. The stuff the astronauts left behind could be replaced and I always ask them, would you rather have another 5 lbs of moon rocks or a camera? |
cspg
Member Posts: 6222
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 07-19-2008 11:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by stsmithva:
I'm sure that somewhere there is an exhaustive list, but could someone tell me what was left behind in that LEM stage on each mission?
That list exists on NASA's web site but since I've recently thrown that link away, I'm unable to be of any help. Sorry. The list contained every item left on the moon by each mission. |
jasonelam
Member Posts: 691
From: Monticello, KY USA
Registered: Mar 2007
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posted 07-20-2008 03:38 PM
Here is a list I found of over 100 items that were left by Neil and Buzz. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6222
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 07-20-2008 11:59 PM
Yes, that's the one that come up when doing a web search. The list I was referring to was a lot more exhaustive (if I remember correctly).Anyway, I've emailed NASA's History Office (the original email came from them) and hopefully they can again provide me with the links I've unfortunately deleted. Stay tuned! |
cspg
Member Posts: 6222
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 07-28-2008 11:38 PM
For example, Apollo 11 left:Items left on the Moon by the Apollo astronauts:
[ ] = number of items Apollo 11 Lunar Landing Location: Mare Tranquillitatis
Duration Of Astronaut Exploration On Moon: July 20-21, 1969 - Filter, Polarizing [1]
- Portable Life Support System (PLSS) [2]
- Remote Control Unit (PLSS) [2]
- Defecation Collection Device [4]
- Overshoes, Lunar [2]
- Covers, PGA Gas Connector [2]
- Kit, Electric waist, Tether [2]
- Bag Assembly, Lunar Equipment Conveyor & Waist Tether [1]
- Conveyor Assembly, Lunar Equipment [1]
- Bag, Deployment, Life Line [1]
- Bag, Deployment, Lunar Equipment Conveyor [1]
- Tether Waist, EVA [2]
- Tether Waist, EVA [2]
- Food Assembly, Lunar Module (LM) (4 Man Days) [1]
- Television (TV) Subsystem, Lunar [1]
- Camera, Lunar TV [1]
- Lens, TV Wide Angle [1]
- Lens, TV Lunar, Day [1]
- Cable Assembly, TV (100 ft.) [1]
- Adapter, SRC/Ops[2]
- Canister, ECS, LIOH [2]
- Urine Collection Assembly (small) [2]
- Urine Collection Assembly (large) [2]
- Bag, Emesis [4]
- Container Assembly, Disposal [1]
- Filter, Oxygen Bacterial [1]
- Container, PLSS Condensate [1]
- Antenna, S-Band [1]
- Cable, S-Band Antenna [1]
- Bag, Lunar Equipment Transfer [1]
- Pallet Assembly #1 [1]
- Passive Seismic Experiment [1]
- Central Station [1]
- Pallet Assembly #2 [1]
- Lunar Retro-Ranging Reflector Experiment [1]
- Primary Structure Assembly [1]
- Hammer [1]
- Scoop, Lunar Sample, Large [1]
- Extension Handle [1]
- Tongs [1]
- Gnomon (Excludes Mount) [1]
- Lunar Module (LM), Descent Stage [1]
Commemorative/Personal Items Left On Moon During Apollo 11 - Apollo 1 (204) Patch (Honoring Deceased Astronauts Grissom, White, and Chaffee) [1]
- Soviet Cosmonaut Medals (Honoring Deceased Cosmonauts Gagarin and Komarov) [2]
- Gold Olive Branch [1]
- Moon Memorial Disc [1]
- Commemorative Plaque (Affixed to LM Descent Stage) [1]
- U.S. Flag Kit, Lunar Surface [1]
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divemaster
Member Posts: 1376
From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-29-2008 12:41 PM
I dunno. I think that the most interesting piece of "memorabilia" that was left behind is from Apollo 10's LM which is currently in heliocentric orbit.As I recall reading somewhere, John Young left a special package onboard which contains a lot of his DNA, including digested portions of Apollo era space food. Just think - it's perfectly preserved and frozen solid. If that LM is ever tracked down sometime in the future, there's a possibility of creating John Young all over again. You never know.
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bruce
Member Posts: 917
From: Fort Mill, SC, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-29-2008 05:06 PM
That could a good find, Tracy. We sure could use another John Young forging the space frontier. It sure would make interesting conversation at John Young # 2's (sorry for the pun!) family reunions! |
divemaster
Member Posts: 1376
From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-29-2008 10:00 PM
John Young #2! That's funny!
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mark plas
Member Posts: 385
From: the Netherlands
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-30-2008 02:02 AM
In all those years I've been interested in the Apollo Missions it never crossed my mind that the Astronauts also left the RCU on the Moon. So there isn't any RCU brought back to Earth? I know Schmitt was the only one who brought back his overshoes. |
divemaster
Member Posts: 1376
From: ridgefield, ct
Registered: May 2002
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posted 07-30-2008 08:24 AM
Three OPS units returned on 15-17, but no one seems to know where they are.
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alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-19-2009 08:27 PM
I have always found it interesting to read about the personal mementos left on the moon by the crews. I found it touching that Charlie Duke left a photo of his family and the Air Force 25th Anniversary Medallion. Just out of curiosity, could anyone tell me where on the surface these items were left? Upon reading through the Apollo 16 Journal, to the best of my knowledge, the items were left on EVA 3 near Station 10. Just curious. Could anyone shed some light on this? |
bernoullis
Member Posts: 14
From: UK
Registered: Feb 2009
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posted 04-21-2009 01:56 PM
Alan, I read your post and decided to rise to the challenge of trying to find out!First off, the ALSJ website has these notes from 'EVA-3 Closeout' section of the journal: 170:01:56 Duke: (To himself) (Tried to) put it in my teeth. (Pause)[What Charlie may be saying is that he was trying to hold too many things and, without thinking, brought something up toward his mouth so he could hold it with his teeth. His helmet, of course, got in the way.] [At some point after taking sample photo AS16-117-18838 at 169:57:01 but before photographing and retrieving the SWC at 170:11:25, Charlie places a photo of the Duke Family on the surface and takes three photos, AS16-117-18839, 18840, and 18841. He may be doing that in this interval before starting to pack the ETB Equipment Transfer Bag at 170:04:10.] [As Charlie mentions in his book Moonwalker (page 206), he also placed a medallion commemorating the 25th Anniversary of the founding of the U.S. Air Force. He may have had the medallion wrapped in tissue or cloth and photos 18842 and 18843 may show that wrapping material.] [Photos 18844, 18845, 18846, and 18847 show the medallion. Charlie mentions the Air Force Anniversary at 170:19:51 but had certainly put it out prior to 170:11:42.] So, I think that the period in question is 169:57:01 to 170:11:25. Well before this time the crew have already left Station 10' (Station 10 Prime, not to be confused with Station 10 which was at the end of EVA 2?) and the LRV is parked in front (west) of the LM right near the MESA (a requirement of TABLE 3.7-6.C 'EVA-3 Closeout' of the 'Apollo 16 Final Lunar Surface Procedures'). The TV footage of the last moments of rock collecting bears this out - as the LRV-mounted TV camera swings from left to right, following Charle Duke (CD) and John Young (JY), the LM comes into close view with the MESA clearly visible (this point equates to the journal's "169:58:52 England: Understand.").Having been fully occupied, CD then disappears from the TV camera field-of-view, in a roughly westerly direction, at this point in the journal: 170:01:41 Duke: Okay. (Long Pause)[Charlie takes the SCB off-camera to the right, while Fendell examines the UV camera.] The journal notes qouted at the opening of this post indicate that the Duke family photo may have been placed and itself photographed " ..... in this interval before starting to pack the ETB Equipment Transfer Bag at 170:04:10". I find myself in complete agreement with that because the next evidence of CD seems to be this, from the journal: 170:04:08 Young: (To himself) Uh-uh.[Fendell reaches the clockwise pan limit and, not finding either John or Charlie, reverses direction. The TV picture jiggles as Charlie works, off-camera, on the CDR's side of the Rover.] So CD is back working next to/on the LRV. Where has he been, between 170:01:41 and 170:04:10, for some 2 and a half minutes? I reckon he probably placed the family photo (and the medallions?) somewhere just west or north-west of the LM and parked LRV, in the vicinity of the US flag or the (as yet) uncollected Solar Wind Collector (SWC). If the map on page 6-18 of the 'Apollo 16 Preliminary Science Report' (available as a pdf download from the ALSJ website) is anything to go by, the flag is 15 metres north-west of the centre of the LM and the SWC is a further 10 metres out in the same direction. It may be coincidental, but this area is viewed from the Lunar Module Pilot's window (on the right-front of the LM) so I guess it is possible CD wishes to see this area at liftoff, knowing that this is where his mementos are - merely my hypothesis, though! Would these items have remained where placed if within, say, 25 metres of the LM at liftoff? I suspect the photo might have been blown some distance, but I am not sure about the medallion.I believe another clue exists that CD is just west or northwest of the LM during this time. Have a read of this journal extract which falls within the 2 and a half minutes noted: 170:02:02 Young: You got some bags, Charlie?170:02:05 Duke: They...I threw them away, John. They said they were through with them. They're down... 170:02:08 Young: Okay. Well, here's one right over here. 170:02:09 Duke: They're down to the left of the LM, there. 170:02:11 Young: Here's one right over here. (Long Pause) Note CD's comment "They're down to the left of the LM, there." Just before starting to wrap up EVA-3, CD was collecting and photographing rocks just north of the LM. This activity was given the go-ahead by the Capcom at 69:55:23. Certainly, CD is seen at working at this spot on the TV coverage from 169:56:01 until he begins walking to the LRV at 169:58:30. Just seconds earlier, at 169:58:21, he throws away the unused sample bags to his right (approximately west). If CD is, as I believe, now somewhere between the LRV and the SWC, perhaps in the vicinity of the flag (northwest of the LM), and facing the LM, his comment about the thrown sample bags being "left of the LM" makes sense. Having placed and photographed the family picture (and medallions?), he again returns, intially unseen, to the LRV at 170:04:10 and then goes off at 170:11:25 to collect the SWC: 170:11:25 Duke: Okay, I'm gonna retrieve the cosmic ray (means "solar wind") now. (Pause)[Fendell pans left to find Charlie.] 170:11:32 England: Okay. The solar wind. Rog. 170:11:35 Young: Charlie, I just retrieved it (meaning the cosmic ray experiment). 170:11:38 Duke: I don't mean the cosmic ray, I mean the SWC. 170:11:42 England: Rog. We understand. (Long Pause) So, AS16-117-18836 to 18838 (rock samples) are taken around 169:57:01 (seen on the TV footage), AS16-117-18839 to 18847 (family photo, coverings, medallion) are taken shortly thereafter, out of sight, but certainly before AS16-117-18848 to 18851 (Solar Wind Collector) which are taken just after 170:11:25.Alan, I hope this helps, and whilst it is nothing more than my best guess, I hope that the reasons above explain my thoughts. Anyone else got any further thoughts on this? |
Whizzospace
Member Posts: 110
From: San Antonio, TX
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 04-21-2009 02:26 PM
I started working on a list years ago. Maybe I'll get the time to update it, given the superb research done by cSers! |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 04-21-2009 06:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bernoullis:
Alan, I read your post and decided to rise to the challenge of trying to find out!
Thanks for the work on this. It sure does help, thank you. After reading your post, I read through the Apollo 16 Journal segments again, a little more carefully and with your observations in mind. I agree. No doubt it was much closer to the the LM during closeout phase but obviously before the LRV was moved to its final resting spot and about 40 minutes after leaving station 10 Prime. Thanks again for the help. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 04-21-2009 07:52 PM
One also wonders if it was blown away by the exhaust from the ascent engine, and if so, how far. |
paul.i.w
Member Posts: 65
From: UK
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 04-22-2009 02:09 AM
When Charlie Duke was in Norwich (UK) recently he mentioned in his talk that he thought the fierce sun would 'crinkle up' the plastic covering of the photograph. I also wondered if the sun might bleach the image (if it remained face up, that is, should it have been blown away by the LM liftoff). |
Philip
Member Posts: 6002
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-22-2009 08:08 AM
Don't forget the "Fallen Astronaut" by Belgian artist Paul Van Hoeydonck by the crew of Apollo 15... together with the hammer and the falcon feather or did these two last items return to Earth? |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 04-22-2009 08:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by paul.i.w:
When Charlie Duke was in Norwich (UK) recently he mentioned in his talk that he thought the fierce sun would 'crinkle up' the plastic covering of the photograph.
I remember reading somewhere that the intense sunlight would have completely bleached the picture before Orion even took off! The US flags were also likely faded to white within a short time since they were "off-the-shelf" nylon flags. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-07-2009 09:57 PM
Can anyone point me in the direction as the where I can find out exactly what was thrown out following the lunar EVAs, specifically the Apollo 11, 16 and 17 missions.What I am really looking to find out it is which personal items like lunar overboots, PLSS etc and other items besides garbage was tossed out? Editor's note: Threads merged. |
moorouge
Member Posts: 2458
From: U.K.
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted 10-08-2009 05:48 PM
The falcon feather is still on the Moon. They did look for it but it had got lost in the dust.Can I query the golf balls though. I'm certain that I read that Shepard retrieved one/two because he later was reported as giving one to the pastor of his church in Houston. |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 10-08-2009 06:15 PM
Shepard had several golf balls in his pocket. The pastor may have received one that was flown to (but not whacked on) the lunar surface. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-08-2009 06:26 PM
Shepard was very keen never to reveal the brand of ball he took the Moon. He once said that he hadn't even told his wife.Had he given one away, that information could have become public. He apparently took the matter seriously enough to sue a ball manufacturer who claimed the balls were theirs. |
Jay Chladek
Member Posts: 2272
From: Bellevue, NE, USA
Registered: Aug 2007
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posted 10-08-2009 08:06 PM
I've read in one book that apparently the golf balls were Titleist brand. Not sure if that was confirmed or not though. I don't recall reading it until after Al passed away though. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-12-2009 04:26 PM
I have a question. When the PLSS backpacks were discarded, were the connector hoses also tossed or did they use those same hoses to hook into the LM oxygen unit while they discarded the equipment? I assume the later. The only photo I have seen of the discarded PLSS is from Apollo 17 and I do not see the hoses in the photo but it is hard to say. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4208
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 10-12-2009 05:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Shepard was very keen never to reveal the brand of ball he took the Moon. He once said that he hadn't even told his wife.
I pressed Alan Shepard during a meeting I had with him in 1994 as to the brand of golf ball used on the moon; he politely refused to divulge! |
AstroAutos
Member Posts: 803
From: Co. Monaghan, Republic of Ireland
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-14-2009 05:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by moorouge:
The falcon feather is still on the Moon. They did look for it but it had got lost in the dust.
I actually chatted with Dave Scott for a few minutes about the falcon feather at Autographica.I asked what ever happened to it, to which he told me it was "still up there until someone else goes up there and gets it." He laughed when I replied that I might get it myself some day if I study hard enough at school...  |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-15-2009 08:28 PM
Every photo I have seen shows the PLSS backpacks after they were thrown from the LM does not show the OPS (Oxygen Purge sSystem) attached to the PLSS. In fact the photos do not show the OPS at all. I do not know if it is because the photos are not clear or if it is because the OPS detached when thrown and is not in the photos. Or is it because the OPS was actually saved? Can anyone shed some light for me? Was the Oxygen Purge System saved or was it thrown out too? |
ilbasso
Member Posts: 1522
From: Greensboro, NC USA
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 10-15-2009 09:22 PM
In the J missions (15, 16, 17) the Commander's lunar surface helmet cover and OPS were used by the CMP in his deep-space EVA to retrieve the film from the SIM bay. It would make sense to me that both men retain their OPS. If the LM were unable to dock with the CM and they couldn't get through the docking tunnel, they'd have to do an EVA and they would need an oxygen source for the short trip over the handrails. |
alanh_7
Member Posts: 1252
From: Ajax, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 10-15-2009 09:38 PM
I have never thought of either of those reasons. Both of those explanations would explain it. Thanks. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1332
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 10-16-2009 12:00 PM
I wondered about the helmet covers on 10 thru 14. In 10's case did they even carry them? And did the CMPs have them? Jonathan your right, they may have been able to dock but if they couldn't get the tunnel open. An EVA would have to be done. I would think the CMPs would have to carry them just in case they had to do a stand-up EVA.I would think the EVA gloves would have to come back for the same reason. The trip over the handrails was never tried. |
thump
Member Posts: 575
From: washington dc usa
Registered: May 2004
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posted 07-14-2010 08:03 AM
Were the still/video cameras that were used during the Apollo items tossed overboard before departure from the moon? I know the cameras on the Lunar Rovers were left behind but what about others? Also, what about the ALSEPs and EASEP packages?Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Wehaveliftoff
Member Posts: 2343
From:
Registered: Aug 2001
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posted 07-14-2010 10:04 AM
This might not sound right, but can Hubble zoom in on the landing sites, or just veer out? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 43576
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 07-14-2010 10:21 AM
From the Space Telescope Science Institute: Hubble cannot take photos of the Apollo landing sites.An object on the Moon 4 meters (4.37 yards) across, viewed from HST, would be about 0.002 arcsec in size. The highest resolution instrument currently on HST is the Advanced Camera for Surveys at 0.03 arcsec. So anything we left on the Moon cannot be resolved in any HST image. It would just appear as a dot. Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has provided the first clear images of the landing sites, not only capturing the hardware, but the footprints and rover tracks as well. |
Tykeanaut
Member Posts: 2216
From: Worcestershire, England, UK.
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 12-31-2012 09:13 AM
It really is a great shame that so many historical items were left "up there". Perhaps one day some may be retrieved? |
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