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Apollo 8: Spacewalking crewmember

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Author	Topic: Apollo 8: Spacewalking crewmember
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004	posted 10-19-2007 01:15 PM If an EVA was approved on Apollo 8, who would have went out: CMP or LMP?
randy Member Posts: 2231 From: West Jordan, Utah USA Registered: Dec 1999	posted 10-19-2007 03:30 PM My guess is, since on Apollo's 15, 16 and 17, when an EVA was required, the CMP did it. So, I guess that in the case of Apollo 8, Lovell would have done it. Randy
Jay Chladek Member Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007	posted 10-19-2007 04:14 PM Why would an EVA have been approved for Apollo 8? I can't think of even a contingency reason for them to do one. Now if we are talking about it being an EVA with what became the Apollo 8 crew when their mission was a high orbit test of the LM, then I presume it would have been the CMP and LMP, same as it was on Apollo 9 to validate the crew transfer (assuming it wouldn't have been validated on the original LM test that became Apollo 9).
Lou Chinal Member Posts: 1332 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007	posted 10-19-2007 08:19 PM Why would you want to do an EVA on Apollo 8 it the first place? -Lou
compass Member Posts: 42 From: uk Registered: May 2007	posted 10-21-2007 08:56 AM Was Apollo 8 not a kind of stop gap mission because the LM was not ready yet and NASA wanted to maintain the momentum and did not wish to have an extended period of zero manned flights between Apollo 7 and the first manned test of a LM. Apollo 8 in the mean time, prior to the LM being ready was able to fill the gap and in doing so give NASA the confidence that the CSM and SPS in particular could successfully complete a return trip to the moon and back. Given that on some of the Gemini missions when an EVA was performed the CDR did not wear a pressure suit that was EVA rated, that is it was a lighter version of the pressure suit which was adequate when the occupant was within a depressurised cabin but not EVA capable... I guess comfort and weight were factors in this. It would be interesting to know if the suits the Apollo 8 crew wore reflected this practice given that any EVA was unlikely for this mission.
John Charles Member Posts: 342 From: Houston, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2004	posted 10-21-2007 10:20 AM quote: Originally posted by compass: It would be interesting to know if the suits the Apollo 8 crew wore reflected this practice given that any EVA was unlikely for this mission. Please refer to any Apollo 8 crew portrait to see that Borman (CDR) and Anders (LMP) wore the version of the A7L pressure garment with two sets of connectors for gases (one for IVA umbillicals and one for the PLSS backpack). Note also that Lovell wore the IVA version with only one set of connectors. This indicates that Borman's and Anders's suits were EVA compatible, and that therefore, one or both of them would theoretically have done a hypothetical EVA. (I don't believe that either of them were EVA-trained for Apollo 8, however, although they would have been if Apollo 8 had carried a LM,as originally intended. An EVA transfer would have been required to get back to the CM if the LM was unable to dock.) Note also that the Apollo 7 crew had the same CDR/LMP vs. CMP suit types (EVA was never seriously considered for Apollo 7, but I think NASA just ordered suit types for the corresponding crew positions, regardless of the actual need for EVA-compatible suitson that mission), as did Apollo 9. On Apollo 9, Schweickart was the designated EVA crewmember, so I suspect Anders would have been similarly designated for EVA on Apollo 8. Note also that, during the Apollo 9 EVA, McDivitt was in the LM in vacuum, wearing his EVA-compatible suit, and would been gone outside to rescue Schweickart if needed. HOWEVER... Note that, on Apollo 9, Scott depressurized the CM, opened the hatch, and did a stand-up EVA, wearing the IVA version of the A7L suit. So, clearly it, too, was EVA-compatible. In fact, a few years ago I came across some official documents describing how Scott took the initiative to make sure that his CMP IVA suit really was EVA-compatible, doing vacuum and thermal testing on it. I don't know, but I suspect, that Scott was an EVA enthusiast, perhaps to make up for his lost EVA on Gemini 8. In addition to his stand-up EVA on Apollo 9, he also did the first and only stand-up EVA on the Moon on Apollo 15, when he stood up in the docking hatch to survey the surrounding terrain. (His LMP, Jim Irwin, did not do so, nor did any of the Apollo 16 or 17 landers.) ------------------ John Charles Houston, Texas
capoetc Member Posts: 2178 From: McKinney TX (USA) Registered: Aug 2005	posted 10-21-2007 10:40 AM quote: Originally posted by John Charles: Please refer to any Apollo 8 crew portrait to see... Thanks for the link to the Honeysuckle Creek site... I had not seen that site before! ------------------ John Capobianco Camden DE
Matt T Member Posts: 1369 From: Chester, Cheshire, UK Registered: May 2001	posted 10-21-2007 02:35 PM In my collection is an Apollo EVA glove made in 1968 by the David Clark company for Rusty Schweickart. It's an anomalous item in that so far I've found no historical records that explain why it was made (ILC were the Apollo suit contractor at this point). What I do know is that the only other remotely related item I've located is in the NASM collection - an EVA glove made for Bill Anders with an almost identical highly distinctive serial number. I can't draw any conclusions from this but I'd suggest that it might point the finger more in Anders' direction as the EVA astronaut on the original earth orbital Apollo 8 mission. Cheers, Matt ------------------ www.spaceracemuseum.com
Jay Chladek Member Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007	posted 10-21-2007 06:01 PM From what I can remember about the EVAs performed on the J missions, the spacewalking crewmember did wear some items that were left over from the moonwalks. He wore the helmet cover and gold visor (CDRs I believe), the emergency oxygen chest pack on the front and IIRC, the micrometeoroid outer covering for one lunar suit, which included the set of over gloves. The LMP as I recall also wore similar equipment except for the chest pack. The CDR wore just the regular suit as he sat in the seat and flew the Command Module while the EVA took place. From what I remember seeing in the photos of Dave Scott on Apollo 9, he was wearing one of the preliminary red colored helmet covers with the gold visor (he and Rusty did and this was the only flight with those covers) and it also looked like he was wearing a micrometeoroid garment over his normal A7L suit as well. Presumeably this was part of the suit evaluation tests that were done on Apollo 9. The one set of chest umbilicals on the early CMP suits near as I can remember made them capable of using hoses for EVA (as Scott did) and I believe the emergency chest pack (like the late suits used for J mission EVAs). But they were unable to utilize the PLSS backpack system though like the CDR and LMP suits. One would have to go through the original Apollo 8 equipment loadout manifests to see if they were loaded with the micrometeoroid covers and the helmet covers to get clues to see if they were capable of an EVA or not. The helmet cover and the visor would be the biggest key since without that, a spacewalking astronaut would pretty much get his head baked by the unfiltered sun. Presumeably equipment would have been earmarked for Borman, Lovell and Anders for that since they were originally planning to fly a LM test flight and the equipment would have been needed for an emergency EVA transfer from the LM to the CM (which was a contingency plan from the early days, meaning the CM would have been depressurized). But when it became a Lunar orbit flight and their storage space became smaller (no LM to store some stuff in on the way out), I don't think they would have been taken along. For that matter, I don't think the Apollo 8 CSM was even fitted out with EVA handholds on the outside like later flights were.
Robert.Hayward New Member Posts: From: Registered:	posted 12-18-2007 08:04 PM Hello, I'm a brand new member to collectSPACE and this is my first post, so please be gentle with me... If you read the interview of Frank Borman, the Commander of Apollo 8, in the JSC Oral History collection (which contains many detailed recollections from the movers and shakers of the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo & Shuttle programs) he makes a reference to the suggestion that an EVA be added to the original flight plan. He was very much against it. Here is the pertinent portion of the interview to put his comments in context... quote: HARWOOD: What were your feelings when you knew that you were going to have to go around to the dark side of the Moon? It's hard for us to fathom now that that was even, like, such a big deal, that you don't know. You know, can you come back around? And, but-- BORMAN: It's hard for us to fathom now. But the thing that's interesting about that mission was that, I don't know, maybe half a dozen of us sat in Chris Kraft's office one afternoon and we went over the flight plan, to try to understand what would we do on the--on--when we got to the--or on the whole flight. And I've always thought, again, it was an example of NASA's leadership with Kraft and their management style that we were able to hammer out, in one afternoon, the basic tenets of the mission. You know, the Tracking people wanted us to stay up there a month. I didn't want to stay more than one--it was a give-and-take, and Kraft called the shots. So we ended up going around 10 times, and I never really thought about, you know, going around behind -- you'd lose radio contact; but that's about all. It was -- actually, the far side was lit, because the Sun was over there. And it was a -- I remember that, in order to go 10 revolutions around the Moon, we had to launch at a certain time; but the recovery would then be before sunrise. And the Recovery people were concerned about that. But all this was thoroughly discussed, and then Kraft made the decision. It wasn't a committee; it wasn't a--you know, it was one man who had the knowledge to fly like that. HARWOOD: Well, you know, you've kind of been portrayed in some of the things I've read as "Let's do the mission and not one thing more." BORMAN: That's right. HARWOOD: And--why? BORMAN: Well, because -- well, I -- some idiot had the idea that on the way to the Moon we'd do an EVA. Naw. You know, I guess I shouldn't call him "an idiot." He was just stupid to -- you know, to put a -- what do you want to do? What's the main objective? The main objective was to go to the Moon, do enough orbits so that they could do the tracking, be the pathfinders for Apollo 11, and get your ass home. Why complicate it with a bunch of other stuff? You had to decide: What is the primary objective? And then forget it! I was -- I couldn't believe it when people proposed that we open that damn hatch so you risk (or not risk) but you subject the main mission to the possibility of failure with some of these trivial things on the side. And I just wouldn't buy that. Now maybe it's the -- maybe it's the thing -- maybe it's the military background, you know. Because you always say, "Okay, what's the main objective? Let's make sure the main objective gets done, and put all your resources into your main push. And don't forget about the rest." So it would seem some thought had gone into having the crew do a spacewalk. Whether it was killed by Borman's dislike for the plan or canceled because common sense prevailed, is an interesting question. If you haven't discovered the JSC Oral History website yet, it can be found here. While the astronaut interviews are fascinating, those with the flight controllers and directors, in my opinion, are even better.
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12-19-2007 10:20 AM quote: BORMAN: Well, because -- well, I -- some idiot had the idea that on the way to the Moon we'd do an EVA. So if an EVA was approved on Apollo 8, who would have went out: CMP or LMP?
John Charles Member Posts: 342 From: Houston, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12-19-2007 12:41 PM quote: Originally posted by carmelo: So if an EVA was approved on Apollo 8, who would have went out: CMP or LMP? Probably LMP Anders. Anders and CDR Borman wore EVA-compatible versions of the A7L pressure garment, but CMP Lovell's (like CMP Scott's on Apollo 9) was "EVA-tolerant" (my words, not NASA's). Scott did a lot of chamber testing before Apollo 9 to demonstrate his suit's suitability for the stand-up EVA on Apollo 9--but I know of no evidence that such work was completed before Apollo 8. ------------------ John Charles Houston, Texas
dtemple Member Posts: 730 From: Longview, Texas, USA Registered: Apr 2000	posted 12-19-2007 03:05 PM quote: Originally posted by John Charles: Probably LMP Anders. I strongly suspect Anders would have performed the EVA had it been approved. Anders served as the backup pilot for Gemini XI in which an EVA was performed. As Richard Gordon's backup, Anders must have received EVA training. However, as I was about to click "submit reply" I realized Lovell was White's backup on Gemini IV which of course was an EVA mission, so I suppose Lovell had some EVA training, too. Of the two I still supsect Anders would have been given the assignment since the Gemini XI EVA was much more complex than that of Gemini IV. Hence the taining for these would have differed substantially. Seemingly, Anders would have already been better prepared. Also, as noted above, Lovell's Apollo 8 suit was not an EVA type.
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12-20-2007 03:26 PM The David Scott's A7L CMP suit was different from the others suits of others CMP from Apollo-7 to Apollo-14 or Exactly the same? In others words Mike Collins or Dick Gordon could be performing an stand-up EVA?
Jay Chladek Member Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007	posted 12-21-2007 12:44 AM It should have been the same suit. Reason being is that an emergency transfer from the LM to the CSM was a contingency plan, should docking between the two spacecraft not be possible after the rendezvous and (attempted) docking, or the tunnel couldn't be opened. So cabin depress of the CM would be needed and as such, the suit would need to handle a space environment as the CMP would need to stick his head outside to secure the teather mechanism needed to winch over the CDR and LMP back to the CSM. I seem to remember reading that the tether used would have been the pully system used to transfer samples to the LM ascent stage from an astronaut on the surface. If I remember correctly, Rusty Schweickart was going to demonstrate the procedure on Apollo 9 until his space sickness problem got in the way. So the EVA transfer test got scrubbed as he just tested the PLSS and suit on the porch of the LM with Dave shooting pictures of him from the CSM. The procedure was left in the Apollo flight manual though if I remember correctly.
Lou Chinal Member Posts: 1332 From: Staten Island, NY Registered: Jun 2007	posted 12-30-2007 04:17 PM All, good topic. Something I never heard talked about. Did Mike Collins have a helmet cover & outer gloves? It must have been carried. As far as the handholds, I say they were on Apollo 8. The Apollo 9 crew was going to fly the second flight but it was switched. When they switched flights, they did not switch command modules. Dave Scott even said," I have to learn about a different CM. I also seem to remember Collins writing about a " what if". What if Neil ripped his suit could he fit into mine? I guess you could do an EVA with the command module pilots suit if you had to. -Lou
carmelo Member Posts: 1051 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12-30-2007 06:11 PM quote: Originally posted by Lou Chinal: Something I never heard talked about. Did Mike Collins have a helmet cover & outer gloves? It must have been carried. Good question! In Apollo 15, 16 and 17 deep space EVAs, helmet cover and gloves were of the CMDR.

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