posted July 12, 2006 01:31 AM               

Sorry to be so late in replying, but I've been burning the midnight oil of late finishing some copyediting and preparing a lengthy index for a new book.

That information came directly from a history of Alan Shepard prepared for the 40th anniversary of the Mercury 7, and was prepared for NASA's HQ History Office by Tara Gray.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/40thmerc7/shepard.htm

In this she states inequivocably that Shepard had the logo painted on the side of the spacecraft that might have flown the MA-10 mission. As I was only gathering this information for a brief magazine article I'm afraid I didn't delve any deeper into the hows and whys of this, but as this article was commissioned by NASA I'd assume Tara would have had access to their historical documents that verified this. Then again ...

Colin

[This message has been edited by ColinBurgess (edited July 12, 2006).]

posted July 12, 2006 10:55 AM               

How are you?!

I don't know that much about that 40th anniversary Mercury site you linked, although I have read Carpenter's entry, which has always read like a mish-mash of factoids to me. I think it has been updated since it was first posted because it now cites Carpenter's autobiography.

But the site still has not corrected a howler, which has Jay Carpenter born in March of 1962. He was born during the Korean war at Tripler.

I'm sure the NASA public affairs people try very hard to get things right. But it's ~possible~ that they may have gotten the MA-10 business wrong. It could've been a prank. It could never have happened. It could have happened just the way Tara Gray has it.

I guess I'd like to see their sourcing on the whole business. I'll go back to the link now to see if there's a citation.

Kris

On edit: Looks like Gray cites Keith T. Wilson, "Mercury Atlas 10: A Mission Not Flown." Quest (Winter 1993): 23–25.

Is anyone familiar with this article?

On second edit: OK. Quest looks like a nice spaceflight quarterly published in my old stomping grounds, Bethesda, Maryland.
http://www.spacebusiness.com/quest/

Back issues show a couple of writers and scholars I recognize from the boards here.

[This message has been edited by KC Stoever (edited July 12, 2006).]

posted July 12, 2006 11:48 AM               

That's OK. But this is ridiculous. There are three factual errors in only the first paragraph of the NASA account that appears below! (My remarks appear in bold, if I've formatted this correctly.)

His parents separated when he was 3 years old and when his mother was hospitalized with tuberculosis, he was raised by a family friend. [Carpenter was two, not three, when his parents separated. His mother was not hospitalized at the time and did not enter a sanitarium until years later. Carpenter was raised not by a family friend but by his grandparents, with whom he and his mother lived.]He attended primary and secondary school in Boulder, graduating from high school in 1943. After graduating from high school, Carpenter entered the Navy's V-5 flight training program at the University of Colorado.[Carpenter was in the USN's V12a program, which for Carpenter was based not at CU but at Colorado College! The program provided a college curriculum and basic aviation cadet training to candidates who scored exceptionally well on USN aviation entrance exams.]The program was designed to give potential pilots advanced academic training at the same time they received basic experience in aircraft.1 After a year there, he spent six months in training at St. Mary's Pre-flight School, Moraga, California, and four months in primary flight training at Ottumwa, Iowa. When the V-5 program ended at the close of World war II, Carpenter entered the University of Colorado to major in aeronautical engineering. He received a degree there in 1949.2

Yes, Carpenter was class of '49. But he received his degree in 1962. This is because he missed his final exam in heat transfer because [on edit--on the morning of his final exam] snowmelt from a record winter snowfall [had taken] the bridge out of Left Hand Canyon. This left Carpenter three credits shy of a BS. He planned to retake the course when it was next offered. But the US Navy called first, thinking he had degree in hand [because it had identified him the spring of his final semester, made an assumption, and never asked for a transcript].

As it happens, Carpenter later took the course (Thermodynamics) at Patuxent Naval Air Station, where he was TPS class 13 (1954). His grade? 100.

In view of Carpenter's academic work since 1949, and his notable accomplishments in space, CU awarded Carpenter his degree in 1962 during commencement ceremonies for which he was the speaker. He remains, however, class of 1949. In fact, the Navy considered him a college graduate that year, bringing him in as part of its Direct Procurement Program (DPP), which specifically recruited graduates with engineering degrees.

Stepping off my soapbox now. OK. Stepping back on:

Is it so hard to get the facts right?

Stepping off now.

Kris

posted July 12, 2006 08:20 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by ColinBurgess:
Kraft may have spat his dummy about what he (as a non-test pilot, non-astronaut flight controller) perceived as a poor performance, but while he certainly tried to wield his influence where he could in the NASA corridors, and is alleged to have said he would make sure that Carpenter never flew another mission, he did not have Scott Carpenter grounded.

---

posted July 12, 2006 08:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by carmelo:
Confess,i try many,many nostalgia for those men (Glenn,Carpenter,JFK,etc) and those years (the early 60s,before Vietnam,hippy,drugs,cynism).is a lost paradise,a "brief ,shining ,moment".If only Kennedy had not gone in Dallas,november 22!!

---

posted July 12, 2006 09:22 PM               

I like it.

Origins, anyone? The usage escapes me.

posted July 12, 2006 09:49 PM               

Possibly an aussie expression but I have heard it used by others. Dummy equals baby pacifier if that helps.

posted July 12, 2006 09:59 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by hinkler:
dummy, spit the: Get very upset at something

Possibly an aussie expression but I have heard it used by others. Dummy equals baby pacifier if that helps.

Regards, Ian from Oz

---

dummy = pacifier

I get it.

Like an infant tantrum.

posted July 14, 2006 07:39 PM               

First of all, I'm pleased to announce that the book, "NASA's Scientist-Astronauts" is virtually ready for publication, and it will be released next month. A lot of time-consuming post-copyediting work has tied me up quite a bit these past few weeks, so I haven't been very diligent in responding to this forum or to some correspodents, but now I'm back on an even keel once again.

"Spitting the dummy" is a familiar expression down here in Australia. As you surmised, it refers to a childish temper tantrum, so when we say someone has "spit the dummy" it means they've displayed unnecessarily petulant behaviour.

The whole Tara Brown question is possibly quite a good lesson to point out to any budding authors out there, to ensure they check their facts. As mentioned, I used this NASA-authorised website and indeed the Keith Wilson article to put together that "Spaceflight" magazine piece on Alan Shepard and the Freedom 7 II story, but for a more in-depth study of the whole saga, it would doubtless have been crucial to have verified these facts elsewhere. Even though her article bears the NASA logo, I don't know if Tara Brown's account is correct, or even that of Keith Wilson, but there are undoubtedly people out there who would know the answer for sure. And to have Kris point out several errors in her father's information at the same site does give a person reason to suspect that the whole site might contain other mistakes. It would undoubtedly be very interesting to find such a reliable source of information and ask this insider how the name actually came to be painted on the side of the spacecraft.

posted July 15, 2006 09:43 PM            

I had just finished reading Krafts 'Flight' when I saw this thread. Even before I read the thread here, I felt uncomfortable with so much of Kraft's 'dissing' people - Glenn, Carpenter, von Braun, even Mueller. I was also fairly surprised to read that he (Kraft) seemed to have any power over astronaut selection for missions. Kraft seems like the poster boy for David Lee Roth's - 'Im just a big ego...'. Im sure he did much for our space program but he does come across as a pompous a*s in my opinion.

I also do not believe for one second that that WAW guy 'forgot' that the title of your book was FOR SPACIOUS SKIES. That is just so much BS on his part as he was trashing you, your father, and your book. I look forward to reading the rest of your book.

For the record I have read almost all the books written by the people who were involved in the 'space race' that I can including those by Aldin, Cernan, Conrad, Cunningham, Lovell, Krantz, Shepard, Slayton, and Schirra. And of course Tom Wolfe's TRS. Too bad it so trashed Gus Grissom. I could never figure out why when it got most everything else right.

quote:

---

Originally posted by KC Stoever:
Stepping off my soapbox now. OK. Stepping back on:
Is it so hard to get the facts right?
Stepping off now.
Kris

---

Hate to nit pick, but you did bring up the issue of facts: your age. I know, NEVER ask a Lady her age. But in FSS on the second photo page after page 242, the photo of your mother with you and sisters/brothers states that you (Kristen in the caption) are 4 (years old) on April 9, 1959. On the inside jacket cover on the back of the book (below the modern day photo of you and your dad - who looks terrific) it states that you were six years old on May 24, 1962. The two dates are over three years apart so one of the ages must be wrong, or am I?

God Speed Scott Carpenter.

Paul

posted July 16, 2006 07:54 AM               

There is a verse in that song that says " I'm just a big ego", but it's not the title.

posted July 16, 2006 11:27 AM               

Thanks for the nice words about FSS and welcome to cS!

I guess the answer to my "on the soapbox" question posed above is "very hard indeed."

And how apposite that Colin popped up in the thread just now.

Colin was an eagle-eyed reader of galley proofs and noted, among other things, a couple of instances where I had the ages of, IIRC, my brothers Scott and Jay wrong for a ca. 1954 section of text. (Thank you, Colin.) He read the galleys and emailed me. I corrected their ages for the book.

Regarding the age discrepancy based on the April 1959 photo caption and the dust cover text: OK, so I'm counting on my fingers ("June 1955 to June 1956 is one, June . . .")

You're right, Paul. I have a late June birthday, so I was NOT four years old in April 1959 but only nearly four.

And for my dad's flight in May 1962, I was nearly seven. So the dust cover copy is correct, I was six years old the day of my father's launch, and in first grade. And the caption for the 1959 photo is incorrect. I was three and not four. I'm blaming Colin

(BTW, speaking of eagle-eyed readers, the Professor David Michelson, University of British Columbia, Department of Electrical Engineering, was our brilliant technical reader. Thank you, again, Prof. Michelson!)

posted July 17, 2006 08:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by KC Stoever:
Carpenter's status? In April 1964 Carpenter was on inactive status, training for Sealab 1 with his parent US Navy, a transfer he requested in the fall of 1963.

...So, to answer your question, Carpenter was not on active duty when the first Gemini crew selection was made, as you say, in April 1964.

...But a related question is: what if Carpenter, in a display of Astropower, had taken his case to Gilruth?

---

Mercury 10 was offically cancelled on 12th June 1963.

For a look at the Mercury-Atlas 10 spacecraft goto
http://www.geocities.com/rocket_man_2020/Mercury10.html

Now as early as Autumn 1962 Slayton must have been thinking about astronauts for Gemini, if not actual crew assignments. Grissom was by then working full time on Gemini and the new Group 2 astronauts were slected and going into astronaut training, if not actually ready for a spaceflight. According to Slayton, in February 1963 Gemini 3 was scheduled for a launch date of October 1964 with Gemini 4 being scheduled for January 1965.

Now from 'Deke' it gives the impression that Slayton was working on early Gemini crews, at least Gemini 3 through to 5, as early as the end of 1963. These crews went through a couple of changes before they were offically announced on (Gemini 3) 13th April 1964, (Gemini 4) 27th July 1964 and (Gemini 5) 8th February 1965.

Slayton had Shepard in mind to command the first Gemini mission, this unofficial assignment of Shepard to Gemini 3 was around about August 1963, Shepard was later removed from the active astronaut list in October 1963.

So to summarise, with an early launch schedule giving the first manned Gemini launch date as October 1964 and Slayton thinking about Gemini crews around about the end of 1963, it is interesting to note that Carpenter's request for a transfer to Sealab came around about the same time as the first crews would have been being discussed around the astronaut office.

Finally, the question of Carpenter going to Gilruth to request a flight. In his book, Cooper wrote about his being over looked for Apollo 13, "I went to see Dr. Bob Gilruth, who during Mercury had been "king of the hill" and closely involved in all the crew assingments. He said he was sorry but there was nothing he could do."

By the time of Apollo 13 Gilruth, it would seem, had no power to alter crew assignments, but way back in Mercury his voice may have been more important than Kraft's.

posted July 17, 2006 10:28 AM               

He had sent a memo to the Mercury guys asking for their preferences regarding Gemini flights -- Carpenter (and Kris Stoever will comment on this, I'm sure) told Slayton he was interested in a navy underwater assignment that would remove him from the first few Gemini crews.

It was Carpenter's accident in 1964 that made a later assignment unlikely. As I recall, after the motorcycle accident he never regained Class I flight status.

posted July 17, 2006 12:08 PM               

My speculation upthread and quoted by robsouth, about Carpenter, astropower, and an appeal to Gilruth was just that. Speculation. Decisions about flight crews had by 1963 shifted to Deke, in an assignment, btw, arranged by Al Shepard.

The Mercury guys nevertheless reflexively took their grievances to Gilruth. Gilruth likely listened patiently and with interest but pointed them to Deke's office.

Would Gilruth have weighed in if he felt strongly about something? I simply do not know, nor do I know how Deke would have greeted such involvement--from Gilruth, or Shepard, or Kraft for that matter. I simply have not studied it enough. Cassutt probably knows better than anyone.

posted July 28, 2006 01:35 PM            

God Speed Scott Carpenter

[This message has been edited by Paul78zephyr (edited July 28, 2006).]

posted July 28, 2006 09:10 PM               

It's difficult to accept praise for merely writing about deeds I could never do myself. And here I include deeds done by both my father and my mother.