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Author
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Topic: Apollo crew autographs: authenticity and value?
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mgoat
New Member Posts: 4
From: CT, USA
Registered: Nov 2014
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posted 11-30-2014 09:52 PM
   
I am a new member, and am curious whether the signed astronaut photos attached are authentic signatures or autopens, and whether any of the photos have any value? My father, who worked for Grumman at the Cape during the Apollo program and had contact with the astronauts, acquired these. One of them is personalized to him. Thank you so much for your help!  
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mgoat
New Member Posts: 4
From: CT, USA
Registered: Nov 2014
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posted 11-30-2014 09:52 PM
 
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J.L
Member Posts: 674
From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA
Registered: May 2005
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posted 11-30-2014 10:33 PM
Hate to say it, but those are all machine "autopen" signatures.On edit: Oops... looks like Apollo 12 is good though.
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-01-2014 02:32 AM
I would say that Apollo 11 is authentic, too. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-01-2014 04:29 AM
Welcome to collectSPACE new member! Actually, in my opinion, both your Apollo 11 and 12 signed lithos are authentic (if not professionally made color copies). Apollo 13 — Unfortunately, autopens and the same for Apollo 16, autopens of all crewmembers. The Apollo 14 "signed" litho is actually a printed facsimile (note the extremely small printed crew autographs on it) that were mainly given out to thousands of Apollo workers at JSC and KSC. And while the Apollo 15 crew portrait is inscribed to your Dad's name, unfortunately, it contains machine-generated autopen signatures of all three. |
capoetc
Member Posts: 2169
From: McKinney TX (USA)
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 12-01-2014 06:10 AM
I agree with the authenticity statements above; if the A11 and A12 lithos are not color copies, then they look authentic. The A11 is probably worth $5000 - $8000 (possibly more at auction) and A12 is probably $500 or so.Be cautious though, you will likely receive e-mails with offers to buy that sound pretty good, but you will almost certainly do better in an auction setting. The Apollo 11 uninscribed crew litho is very, very desirable and any auction house that does space auctions will want to feature it. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 12-01-2014 06:21 AM
The Apollo 15 litho appears to have been inscribed by Dave Scott, which is something, but without a hand signature it probably doesn't have resale much value.If the Apollo 11 piece is not a copy / pre-print then it's obviously worth a significant sum. The signatures are very bold and clear. |
David Carey
Member Posts: 782
From:
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 12-01-2014 11:37 AM
Nice.As a point of curiosity, how well can the dot pattern of a lithograph be reproduced in a photo print or color copy? I can see a "photo of a signed photo" being hard to quickly discern from live-signed in just a picture since they are all continuous-tone. When I zoom in on the full A11 image here it sure appears as continuous ink over a field of discrete litho dots (even with some of the interference-pattern effects of scanning a litho). |
mmcmurrey
Member Posts: 114
From: Austin, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2012
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posted 12-01-2014 11:45 AM
Also the back of the litho (MSCL-30) would have the NASA stamp and the write up "Fifth Manned Apollo Crew..."
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JasonB
Member Posts: 1091
From:
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 12-01-2014 12:13 PM
Brace yourself for some nice offers on the Apollo 11 photo! Don't just jump on the first one because it's a nice, quite valuable photo. Auction results are over the place for similar ones but I would think you easily sell it privately, if it's hand signed, for $6-8000. Maybe a little more or less.The Apollo 12 photo is more common and would probably sell between $250-$500 (I'm assuming they're all hand signed). Nothing to retire on but there's definitely value in those. Good luck! |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 12-01-2014 01:28 PM
Those auction figures don't factor in authenticators turning down items that shouldn't be turned down, 25% buyer's fees, 20% seller's fees, sometimes a $15 per lot fee (I still don't know what that covers), and a wait of perhaps six months to get a check. They also don't factor in the possibility that the auction has similar items in the same auction, causing yours to be bumped to the next available auction or compete with the similar items. People see big auction numbers and never think of everything that causes a check for a little more than half of that to arrive in your mailbox next Spring. |
mgoat
New Member Posts: 4
From: CT, USA
Registered: Nov 2014
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posted 12-01-2014 09:35 PM
Thank you so much, everyone, for your replies. I really appreciate the information. If I decide to sell, would I need to get the signatures officially authenticated somewhere? If so, how would I go about that? Also, it sounds like auctions may bring a higher price, but involve a lot of fees. Is the net profit for the seller still likely to be higher in an auction than in a private sale? Any more specific advice as to how to sell/who to contact if I decide to do so? Thanks in advance! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 12-02-2014 05:32 PM
If you sell the photos, there is no need to get them authenticated up front. There are knowledgable buyers who can determine authenticity on their own, so a private sale wouldn't require authentication on your part. However, if you prefer to get authentication up front, I would personally recommend using a dedicated space authenticator (like Steve Zarelli) instead of using a more general authentication firm like PSA/DNA. If you submit these to an auction house, such as Heritage or RR, they have in-house authenticators who will accept or reject items for consignment. As such, getting your own authentication up front is totally unnecessary...and indeed, the auction house will generally ignore it, unless it's from someone they already work with. Regarding auction houses, you need to bring in enough extra to offset the fees, to make it worth your time. If you can arrange a private sale for $6400 with no fees, for example, you would have to sell the same item at auction for $8000 (assuming a 20% commission) to see the same paycheck. The advantage with auctions is that they reach a larger audience and you could get lucky with a bidding war that brings in much more than expected. Likewise, it could be a slow bidding day and the item sells significantly less than expected. In other words, going to auction can be a gamble. (Note: Some auction houses will let you set a reserve...a minimum selling price. However, if an item fails to meet reserve, it never seems to perform as well the second time around. Bidders don't want to waste their time re-bidding on something they lost out the time before.) |
mgoat
New Member Posts: 4
From: CT, USA
Registered: Nov 2014
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posted 12-02-2014 06:04 PM
Okay, thanks! |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 12-03-2014 08:19 AM
If it sold for $8000 the consignor would NOT get $6400 under most circumstances. mjanovec is not factoring in the 20-25% buyer's fee. An $8000 sale results in a check being mailed to the consignor (4-6 months after sending the consignment)for $5120, assuming a 20% seller's fee. How am I the only one thinking of the realities of consigning to auction houses? |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 977
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 12-03-2014 08:49 AM
The seller isn't responsible for the buyer's fee, thus it will not be deducted from their check.Edit to add: Maybe Jason has the buyer's fee factored into the $8000 example where mjanovec does not. |
Mike_The_First
Member Posts: 436
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 12-03-2014 09:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonIUP:
How am I the only one thinking of the realities of consigning to auction houses?
You aren't. You are, however, the only one thinking of the negative realities and pushing them as though they're the only realities. mjanovec's post summed it all up quite nicely, positive and negative. The fact is that, yes, they take a cut of the money & there are no guarantees. But they also lend credibility to the product, handle the marketing (better than most can do with a private sale), and handle the dirty work of actually making the deal and completing the transaction for you. For some people, receiving a percentage of the value is worth it for the ease and peace of mind. For others, it's not. Please don't assume that you know better than this person what would be best for them. Personally, if I were in their shoes, I'd opt for the peace of mind and ease, even if it means a smaller check. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-03-2014 11:33 AM
Another reality is that an auction house brings in a much larger pool of deep-pocketed bidders. The fees pay for a slick catalog that appeals to high end collectors, the fees pay for PR that results in media attention, etc., etc. It may not make much difference with a garden variety Wally Schirra signed photo, but if you have a premium item, it can make a huge difference. The price you realize even after auction house fees can be significantly more than if you choose the DIY route. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 12-03-2014 12:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JasonIUP:
If it sold for $8000 the consignor would NOT get $6400 under most circumstances.
In my example, I was using $8000 as the winning high bid. The high bidder pays $9600 with a 20% buyer's fee and the seller earns $6400 after a 20% commission is taken off. The way I see it, the buyer's fee doesn't play into the equation of what the consignor should expect to be paid.Obviously, anyone thinking of consigning to an auction house should always read the fine print regarding terms, fees, commissions, payment turnaround, etc. when choosing an auction house. Nobody here was suggesting otherwise. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 12-03-2014 04:19 PM
Steve, not to be a smarty, but does RR ever print a catalogue or advertise? I watch their monthly auctions but short of collectSPACE I have never seen any other advertisement. Just wondering. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-03-2014 05:42 PM
Chuck, I can answer the first of your questions; Yes, indeed, RR does issue monthly and fully dedicated space auction print catalogs. I am sure, though, the auction gallery does advertise in certain media areas that perhaps Steve can shed more light on. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 12-03-2014 05:47 PM
Not to speak for Steve, but RR does print a catalog for their monthly auctions... along with catalogs for their specialty auctions. If you regularly bid on RR auctions, they tend to put you on their mailing list for catalogs... at least, that has been my experience in the past. (I haven't bid on an auction there for a couple of years now, so I haven't gotten their catalogs for a while.) If you want a catalog, contact them and find out how you can obtain one. They also advertise in autograph-related publications and certain relevant websites, including the UACC website (and collectSPACE, as already noted). They also appear regularly in the media, promoting their auctions and highlighting any unique material they are offering. I believe some previous news clips are available for viewing on their YouTube channel. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-03-2014 08:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
Steve, not to be a smarty, but does RR ever print a catalogue or advertise?
No worries, Chuck.  I believe others have answered the question better than I can. RR as well as other major players make a large investment in authenticating, promoting and providing customer service One could reasonably debate how much is too much, but the point is good auction houses deliver value to the seller for the sellers commissions they charge. Would a consignor rather pay a 20% commission and see top notch offerings, slickly produced videos, coverage on Good Morning America and a gorgeous catalog... Or pay 15% sellers commission with none of the above and possibly an assortment of questionable items? |
JasonIUP
Member Posts: 282
From: PA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 12-04-2014 12:28 PM
Steve - it might be appropriate to disclose that RR employs you as an authenticator. |
Steve Zarelli
Member Posts: 731
From: Upstate New York, USA
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-04-2014 02:13 PM
Fair enough. I assumed that was widely known on this board, but it doesn't hurt to clarify. For those who may not know, I consult with RR Auction and review all of their space autographs -- monthly auctions as well as the twice-a-year dedicated space auctions. |
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