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Author
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Topic: Neil Armstrong signature: real or autopen?
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idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-27-2009 01:33 PM
   
I just recently acquired this Neil Armstrong litho. I was told it was an Autopen. But, I don't think it is. I think it's Armstrong's real signature.I don't see any Autopen exemplar that matches this. Does someone have another source for Autopens than the one at edgeofdarkeness.com? But, below is where I see the differences. What do you think? Am I missing something? Thanks for any input,
Mike The only pattern this closely matches on edgeofdarkness.com would be Pattern 6 because of the long loop that goes far left under his name, and the long curled N.
The first thing I see is the ending point of his loop ends before or to the left of the bottom of the G. The Pattern 6 ending point crosses through the bottom of the G. I don't see any exemplar that ends the loop without crossing through the G. The crossing point of his loop on the Pattern 6's is under the "i", to the "l". The crossing point of the scan I have is after the "l", almost to the beginning of the "A". The cross of the "T" in the scan goes well above the downward line, while in the Pattern 6, it just about touches. In the Pattern 6, there is a dot above the "ei", while in the scan, there is no dot. In the scan, the end of the "l" begins a tiny side turn to the right, while the "l" in patter 6 just ends on a downward stroke. In the scan, the line across the A is about halfway between the left side of line of the A. On the Pattern 6, the line across is well below the midpoint of the left side of the A. |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 10-27-2009 01:47 PM
It's an autopen. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 10-27-2009 01:59 PM
I would be very surprised if this is an autopen. The image as seen initially (using the link) has some aliasing which gives the illusion perhaps of "shakiness", but when the source image is viewed it appears to be authentic IMO, from what I can see here. |
idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-27-2009 02:16 PM
Thanks you two for your comments. But, Kim, if you say its an autopen, do you have a link for a match? That's what I'm looking to find. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 10-27-2009 02:39 PM
The signature appears fine to me and doesn't have any of the usual autopen characteristics...nor does it appear to match any of the known patterns. Pen pressure varies naturally throughout the signature...as one would expect in a handwritten signature.I would go so far as to say this is about as close to a "classic" authentic Armstrong signature as you can get. Assuming it's not a well-made copy of an original, you appear to have a keeper.  |
Spacefest
Member Posts: 1168
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2009
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posted 10-27-2009 02:43 PM
I stand corrected. At first glance, the abrupt pen stops, overall shape, and evenness of stroke pointed to a "pattern six", but actually looking at my autopen book, I see it's not (unless the paper moved a lot.)I thought I read somewhere that the "patten six" was done with a a new type of computer-driven plotter |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 10-27-2009 03:12 PM
It appears to me, to be too close of a match to pattern #6 on Chris Spain's autopen guide.Edited to add: I guess not. Upon further review, I can see what Scott and Kim (2nd post) are getting at. That pattern #6 is way too close to the "classic" Armstrong signature for my comfort!  |
idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-27-2009 03:23 PM
I wouldn't say its any where near a perfect match Steve. Here are the differences I see between this and Pattern 6:
The first thing I see is the ending point of his loop ends before or to the left of the bottom of the G. The Pattern 6 ending point crosses through the bottom of the G. I don't see any exemplar that ends the loop without crossing through the G. The crossing point of his loop on the Pattern 6's is under the "i", to the "l". The crossing point of the scan I have is after the "l", almost to the beginning of the "A". The cross of the "T" in the scan goes well above the downward line, while in the Pattern 6, it just about touches. In the Pattern 6, there is a dot above the "ei", while in the scan, there is no dot. In the scan, the end of the "l" begins a tiny side turn to the right, while the "l" in patter 6 just ends on a downward stroke. In the scan, the line across the A is about halfway between the left side of line of the A. On the Pattern 6, the line across is well below the midpoint of the left side of the A. |
Daniel Lazecky
Member Posts: 480
From: Czech Republic-Europe
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 10-27-2009 04:40 PM
To me shows this autograph like autopen also. Mentioned autograph - autopen hasn't tug, swish it be in mine eyes affected autograph. This autograph it seems for me so, that the being used better computer driven stereoplotter. Cut dead character autograph. I daresay, that the autograph isn't authentic. |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 10-27-2009 05:36 PM
Daniel - My apologies if I'm reading your post incorrectly (since your translated messages are quite hard to understand), but I would be very surprised if this autograph wasn't authentic. That's assuming, of course, it isn't an very convincing copy being sold as genuine. In that case, however, Mike would see the litho isn't an original NASA-issued print.Everything about this autograph looks right... natural ink flow, correct pen speeds and pressure variations, the right connecting strokes, the right ordering of pen strokes, and no atypical traits worth mentioning. This signature appears to be about as good as they come. |
Daniel Lazecky
Member Posts: 480
From: Czech Republic-Europe
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted 10-27-2009 05:45 PM
Apologize for my English. Try to you write especially possibly to you.Always I think, that the autograph here, isn't authentic - isn't guidee arm. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 10-27-2009 05:54 PM
I have to admit that I, like Kim, originally thought this was an autopen.Upon further review however, I've changed my mind. It does look good to me. And Daniel, although your posts can be a bit hard to understand, you do in my opinion, a good job with your English I can not imagine how bad my Czech would sound.  Heck, after spending 2 years in Germany (20 years ago), I can barely speak German. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 10-28-2009 02:38 AM
I'm certain this is not an Autopen, and it looks good as a signature too (although I'll leave it to the experts in genuine autographs to judge that).What's unsual about this one is that the signature is very similar in style and layout to pattern 6, which means that with a small scan it could easily be dismissed as an AP. |
poofacio
Member Posts: 268
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted 10-28-2009 03:23 AM
Surely the patterns for autopen signatures were made to bear some resemblance to the real ones? It therefore isn't that incredible that the shape of genuine ones might be similar! |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 10-28-2009 07:22 AM
Strange as it may seem, in many cases the Autopen signatures of the astronauts look nothing like their regular signatures. Certainly Armstrong's genuine signatures very rarely resemble any of his Autopen patterns.I remember reading in one autobiography that one of the very first things an astronaut would have to do on arriving at NASA was to sit down and write their signature a few times on a piece of paper. This would then be taken away to create their Autopen pattern. In most cases the astronauts would not have given much thought to the way they signed their name up to that point, so they would experiment a bit to try to make it more legible or more impressive looking, or maybe to try to include their full name. This first attempt at a new signature style would become their Autopen pattern for some years, whilst their actual signature was likely to change significantly as they practiced it or as they decided to try a different style instead. |
idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-28-2009 08:14 AM
Thanks for all the feedback. Two things I wanted to point out. I don't know if anyone looked at the Armstrong page of KNOWN examples here on cS.You can see that there are number of Armstrong's Authentic signatures shown that look like the example that I have. Also, I analyzed above in my initial post, the differences I see in many of the letters, and loops. Can anyone comment on how there can be these many noticeable differences from the Autopen example, and still be an Autopen? To me, if there are all these differences from the Autopen, the signature could not be a match to the Autopen. |
idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-30-2009 06:15 PM
Well I have a follow up to this. I went to a Sports Memorabilia show this afternoon in Chantilly, VA. Jim Spence of JSA had a booth and was authenticating autographs. So, knowing they were going to be there, I took the photo to have it authenticated. They did authenticate it, so that was pretty exciting for me. I should have the LOA within one to two weeks. Thanks for all of your input. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3110
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 10-31-2009 09:04 AM
I've seen some badly forged Armstrong forgeries with COAs from various generalist autograph authenticators. The only COA I'd really value with an Armstrong autograph is one from the acknowledged specialist expert on his signature - Scott Cornish. |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 10-31-2009 09:19 AM
You are too kind, Chris. Thank you.I do screen astronaut autographs for JSA. I was sent this yesterday afternoon and thought it looked familiar. When I compared it to the one in this thread I saw that it is the same autograph. Congrats on having such a nice autograph, Mike. I agree completely with Mark that it's a "keeper". |
idrvball
Member Posts: 150
From: Burke, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2009
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posted 10-31-2009 09:48 AM
Scott, thanks for writing in. I was pretty excited when he said everything went well with the authentication. I felt like some of those people on Antiques Roadshow! But, seriously, when I went to pick the item up, they said that they were waiting for their consultant to get back to them, but I didn't know it was you. Since you authenticated it, would you be signing the LOA? |
Scott
Member Posts: 3307
From: Houston, TX
Registered: May 2001
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posted 10-31-2009 09:55 AM
JSA has their own LOA. They do have me screen any astronaut autograph which comes in. |
SpaceSteve
Member Posts: 428
From: San Antonio TX, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 10-31-2009 10:41 AM
Congratulations Mike, that is great to hear!Scott, thank you for letting us know about your affiliation with JSA. That gives me a great deal of reassurance about them. |
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