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Author
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Topic: Defending against PSA/DNA mistakes?
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deputydave1
Member Posts: 89
From: Loxahatchee, Florida, USA
Registered: May 2007
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posted 05-21-2008 10:22 PM
   
I have been selling some items on Astro-Auction under my seller id: deputydave1. I recently sold an Aldrin signed pic that I have had for a number of years and I obtained it from Destiny Space when he had a contract with Aldrin. I believe it to be authentic and peer review concurs. With that said... the buyer wants to send it back since PSA/DNA company advised it as NOT authentic. I agreed as I offer 100% satisfaction, but feel that it's unfair to have a third party with no specialty in astronaut autographs tell me my pic was bad. My question? What do I do in the future?? Any comments or advice? I would rather the qualified members of collectSPACE render the opinion than a company I know nothing about. For the moment my info page on Astro-Auction states that I do not honor the opinion of PSA/DNA for returns, but will honor the opinion of members of this site with guys like Ken and Bob Mc. My feedback and reputation stands by itself. Thanks guys for any feedback. BTW: The item I'm referring to is Item #11207367536 ending on 4-4-08 (Of course I'd be super embarrassed if it was indeed not authentic... can you say eat crow?) |
Mark B
New Member Posts:
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Registered:
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posted 05-21-2008 11:25 PM
Interesting... My opinion would be to obtain in writing from the buyer a signed letter from the PSA/DNA company who said it wasn't legit.Personally I think PSA/DNA is all rubbish but if someone is criticizing your listed item you have a legitimate right to then question the opinion and receive it in writing and signed. From experience of selling various items net buyers can come up with some fantastic stories to obtain a refund or score another free item to replace it because they have had a change of heart or realize they will be a few bucks short of the next rent payment. My two cents worth on it for you. Stick to your guns and obtain written and signed feedback from the business who is challenging your items authenticity. If they are worth their salt they will outline specific reasons and give examples of why. Chances are they won't have anything constructive to say if you are confident about the item and have already spent time looking into it on cS. I know nothing about anything... Good luck, M |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-22-2008 04:51 AM
deputydave1 -- I am unable to call up your Aldrin piece (am I doing something wrong on my computer?), therefore, could you send me a scan of the Aldrin signed picture? -- Thanks! |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 05-22-2008 07:46 AM
Ken, I think that Deputy Dave just mistakenly put the A-A ID number down wrong and it looks to be 11207367535. PSA/DNA's history in authenticating astronaut autographs is not the best and it's my opinion that they missed again on this one, although it is a less than typical example. But IMO it's good and is just a rushed, less than typical but genuine Aldrin autograph. Aldrin probably was signing a stack of these and just wasn't as careful as he usually is in applying his autograph. And coming from Destiny is a plus, although they have had many problems in the past, I don't believe that authenticity has been one of them. Bob Mc. |
Mark Zimmer
Member Posts: 289
From:
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 05-22-2008 09:09 AM
There's plenty of interesting reading about PSA/DNA and its shortcomings (and those of others). |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-22-2008 12:46 PM
Bob--Still having trouble seeing the Aldrin item in reference to, but I am glad you were able to examine it for deputydog 1. I, too, have had serious concerns about PSA/DNA authentications of space-related material. By the way, Bob, did you get my prior email from last week? |
Space-ace
New Member Posts:
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posted 05-22-2008 12:51 PM
That is a great site, one I go to a lot. I also have had a George Romero check that was used in paying insurance for the "Dawn Of The Dead" movie. On the site, it also had it authenticated as a "G.A. Laurel" signed check! I had to call them and tell them otherwise and they had it changed. They are mostly known for their sports "expertise" and fail miserably in that area as well. I can tell you horror stories about their sports authenticating, but that's another topic. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1745
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 05-22-2008 02:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Havekotte:
Bob--Still having trouble seeing the Aldrin item in reference to, but I am glad you were able to examine it for deputydog 1. I, too, have had serious concerns about PSA/DNA authentications of space-related material. By the way, Bob, did you get my prior email from last week?
Hello Ken, For some reason on A-A, searching in a closed auction using an ID number sometimes doesn't work. Instead go to "Closed Auctions" and put in "Deputydave1" in the "User Name" spot and you can see the Aldrin in question that way. It's on the 1st page. Yes, I did get your last e-mail - thanks and I'll get back to you very soon. Bob Mc.
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mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-22-2008 09:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Zimmer:
There's plenty of interesting reading about PSA/DNA and its shortcomings (and those of others).
While I agree that PSA/DNA has had it's share of problems (and this current example appears to be another mistake on their part), I would take anything you read on the website you linked with a grain of salt. The operator of the website appears to have an agenda against R&R, PSA/DNA, and a couple other authenticators. What they tell is a pretty one-sided account of things, with no opportunity for balanced reporting of the other side. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-22-2008 09:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mjanovec:
The operator of the website appears to have an agenda against R&R, PSA/DNA, and a couple other authenticators.
I removed an earlier post of mine to avoid directing this thread on a tangent, but now that it has turned in that direction anyway... there appears to be a direct connection between the owner of that website and an authentication service that competes with PSA/DNA, not to mention other autograph-related services. That's not to say they are necessarily biased as a result, but their choice to hide the connection does give the appearance of impropriety. (In fact, in prior posts, they reference the apparently-connected companies as if they were a completely independent third party.) |
deputydave1
Member Posts: 89
From: Loxahatchee, Florida, USA
Registered: May 2007
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posted 05-22-2008 11:36 PM
Thanks guys for the input.I will close with asking.....Does anyone see a problem with me posting an auction & stating in my listing that I do not accept PSA/DNA opinions? I would hate to have a bunch of stuff being returned to me (or for that matter fellow collectors)from this outfit that I personnaly have no confidence in. Dave Kurz |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 05-23-2008 04:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by deputydave1:
Does anyone see a problem with me posting an auction & stating in my listing that I do not accept PSA/DNA opinions? I would hate to have a bunch of stuff being returned to me
People might get the wrong impression that you're trying to hide something, if you tell them you're not going to allow authentications from a certain third party. It might do more damage to your auctions than to risk a rare occurrence of somebody getting a bad opinion from a third party. While I personally doubt this is an issue you will face very often (especially if you sell authentic signatures, like you appear to do), you might be better off just asking for dissenting opinions from third party authenticators in writing. |
mikelarson
Member Posts: 293
From: Port Washington, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 05-23-2008 04:57 AM
Not accepting PSA/DNA opinions is a sure way to get people to steer away from you auctions and to have people question everything you sell. You are stuck in an unfortunate situation that has affected my others, including me. But I cannot fault PSA/DNA for not providing a letter for an Aldrin autograph that one of the most respected autograph experts on this board said was atypical, but probably good. PSA/DNA has received a lot of criticisms over the years, much of which is deserved, but in this particular case I'm on their side because they erred on the side of caution. And I think they should be given credit for it, especially after the criticisms they have received here in the past. The moral of this story is to stay away from autographs that are atypical or rushed. Even if you know one is good it will be very difficult to sell should you decide to go that route. Just look at the Bill Anders signed portrait that has sat unsold on the Space Source web site for the last month. Specialized authenticators are a great opportunity to reduce these types of occurrences, but unfortunately no one has stepped up to fill the void created when Scott left the hobby (at least not to the level of his visibility). Kind of sad, but life I guess. Mike |
mikelarson
Member Posts: 293
From: Port Washington, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 05-23-2008 05:15 AM
Other an obvious preprint or autopen, I don't see PSA/DNA (or any other authenticator) giving you any meaningful reasons in writing on why they felt something was not authentic. Especially on a low dollar item like this photo. All they would be doing is opening themselves up to additional criticisms in places like this forum. While they have made many mistakes, particularly in the earlier years, they have gotten much better over the past few years, especially with space and historical autographs. Still not perfect, but better than anyone I know of who is easily accessible and currently willing to put their name behind an item in writing. It's not a perfect system, but it works for the vast majority of the items they have reviewed. And it has also prevented countless forgeries from being released into the market and has increased the value of the autographs in our collections. Mike Larson |
deputydave1
Member Posts: 89
From: Loxahatchee, Florida, USA
Registered: May 2007
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posted 05-24-2008 05:15 PM
Thanks again!I will take the advice given & not state I will not accept returns based upon a PSA/DNA rejection. I'll take my chances with not encountering another PSA/DNA issue. I guess that's not bad. I have sold approx. 80+ items on A-A with only one(1) incident. FYI: I received the Aldrin back today from my buyer & will be sending a full refund to him including all costs less the psa/dna fees. He did include their letter indicating there reason. I won't get into that as I feel that this thread has served the purpose it was intended to. Thanks Mr. Pearlman!! I'll send the psa/dna letter to you via e-mail. Dave Kurz "deputydave1" |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2914
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 05-24-2008 08:01 PM
Mike--For me, Mr. Larson, it isn't a concern or question why anyone hasn't "stepped up to fill the void when Scott left the hobby," or better put, since Scott is no longer working for R&R Enterprises. It doesn't necessarily have to be a "sad" situation as there may be reasons why others have not volunteered their time, experiences, and opinions to R&R as a space exploration authenticator. |
mikelarson
Member Posts: 293
From: Port Washington, NY
Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 05-25-2008 07:46 AM
Ken, my comments were not directed at you or anyone else in particular and I don't fault any single individual for not stepping up to take Scott's place at RR. Everyone has their own reasons and motivations in life and I respect that. But when no one from the community as a whole steps up to fill the void, especially when it's a community as passionate and knowledgeable as the people who frequent this forum, I do think it's sad because it hurts our hobby as a whole. And not having Scott at RR is a huge step back for our hobby. There is now a greater chance of astronaut autograph collectors getting duped by forgeries. And I think my reference to Scott "leaving the hobby" is accurate, at least for now. When was the last time he's posted a note here? While I don't know the story of why Scott and RR parted ways, I've got enough common sense to see that he's also stepped back from his involvement on collectSPACE and thus wonder if the two are related. And if they are, then it is really a shame. Mike |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42988
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-25-2008 08:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mikelarson:
...he's also stepped back from his involvement on collectSPACE and thus wonder if the two are related.
Scott's self-imposed decision to leave the hobby was not related to collectSPACE. |
Mark Zimmer
Member Posts: 289
From:
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 05-27-2008 12:17 PM
Personally I consider a PSA/DNA cert is a badge of fraud, but then I feel that way about most certification outfits. I've pretty much stopped buying anything that isn't either signed in front of me or at a reliable organized signing (e.g. Novaspace). The supposed experts are just too obviously clueless. |
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