posted 05-15-2007 02:13 PM               

You can read about autopen signatures here, where there are links to sites that provide examples of known patterns, including those that match yours.

posted 05-15-2007 02:26 PM               

Do you know anything about this seller?

posted 05-15-2007 05:33 PM               

Also, private auctions on Ebay are a big red flag. Usually only people with something to hide use private auctions on Ebay.

posted 05-16-2007 09:22 AM               

Terry

posted 05-16-2007 01:01 PM               

At least he did the right thing.

posted 05-16-2007 08:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by mjanovec:
You should expect an authentic, unpersonalized Armstrong signature on the white space suit portrait to fetch around $3000-4500 these days. If something sells for "only" $1000, that's a good clue that most people don't think it's a genuine Armstrong autograph.

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There seems to be a great deal of emphasis on the 'signed' but not inscribed photograph for the astronaut/space field. I can tell you, as a collector of CDV's and cabinet photographs [1850's-1910], that I welcome the idea of an inscribed photo. It gives me more to base my opinion on. I believe that the idea of a "signature only" photo for the space field got started when there was a demand for Apollo 11 material --- and forgers met that demand by the production of 'signed' Armstrong and Armstrong/ Collins / Aldrin images.

This supply went unchecked until sufficient time passed and a pattern developed that showed these items to be fakes. What got lost in the shuffle was the idea that a 'signature only photo' is somehow better than an inscribed one. This idea simply works to the forger's advantage --- as it allows for the forger to continue to rip off the public.

Making a judgment of authenticity on a signature, of a modern personality, done with modern materials, is EXCEEDINGLY difficult, and I would advise neophytes to not only avoid 'signature' items, but to actively seek out inscribed materials thereby insuring that they have a greater possibility of buying authentic material. I would also say to 'know your source', as per my earlier posting tonight.

I again ask that people send me scans of their early astronaut material, so that I can put together a comprehensive data base on these most remarkable men.

With kind regards, GAJS

Gerard A.J. Stodolski, Inc. - ABAA, PADA, ILAB
Historic Autographs, Rare Books & Manuscripts
Five Chickadee Court
Bedford, New Hampshire 03110
www.gajs.com

posted 05-16-2007 09:24 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gajs:
I want to respond to this idea of Price = Authenticity. That is a total fallacy, and does a dis-service to the new collector. Making a judgment as to authenticity based on a 'higher price' is just WRONG. Forgeries priced at $4500 are just as bad as forgeries priced at $150. They are both forgeries, ~~ only the sting is a little less painful with one than the other.

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I didn't suggest that an Armstrong that sells for $3000-4500 is automatically real. One must still do the proper homework to determine authenticity.

In fact, what I meant to demonstrate is that if something sells well BELOW expected prices (and assuming the item was properly listed in the right category, with no key mispelled words, and no major issues such as poor condition), one should step back and ask themselves "Hey, is there something wrong here I don't see that other collectors are seeing?" Granted, after doing one's homework, one may still conclude the item is likely authentic...and indeed, true bargains can be had on Ebay from time to time. However, with the number of collectors (and dealers) out there looking to get Armstrong signed items (especially the WSS lithos), it's now very rare that bargains can be had...ESPECIALLY bargains that sell for 25% of what you'd normally expect them to sell for.

Another example is that I've seen a couple so-called Peachstate forgeries sell on Ebay in the past year...including one very recently. They usually never exceed $1000 in the bidding. If they were authentic, they should normally be expected to sell for 3-4 times that amount.

True, I wouldn't judge an item by final price alone. Collectors should look at ALL of the variables. And a true master forgery may fool even the best collectors, causing the item to fetch bids in the "normal" range.

But when a price sometimes seems too good to be true, it probably is.

posted 05-17-2007 08:33 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ishma:
Do any authentic Armstrong's ever show up on Ebay? Not that I would bid but just wondering.

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Yes they do. If you look down a few threads in this forum you will see the lucky score by member davidcwagner. Thread topic # 140111509037: Armstrong WSS.

mjanovec is stressing researching is the key. Look before you leap. Also as mdmyer and myself mention you should file a complaint against the seller to prevent him from doing a second chance offer to the next bidder. There is only a single bid increment of $25.00 difference below your winning bid. We who are following this thread have no way to tell if the seller is honest and has not moved on to the next bidder. Plus the next bidder or any of the others may be aware of this forum.

Terry

posted 05-17-2007 07:06 PM               

Briefly: I think that collectors should seek out inscribed materials, rather than single signature items -- from reliable sources. Exactly who those reliable sources are, is a total can of worms, and we'll deal with that issue another time. However, there is IMO an alarming lack of exemplar material out there for reference, and a remarkable lack of reference material for the collector to work with. Furthermore the internet gives vast opportunity to both sides of this issue: transparency can exist -- while anonymity can protect those individuals who wish to defraud.

posted 05-17-2007 07:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gajs:
MJ -- You framed your argument from the idea that the item is selling on an internet auction site or at an auction. You also inferred that somehow one can judge the 'authenticity' of the item by the price it realizes.

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I framed the argument in the context of an internet auction because that's what this discussion is dealing with.

While I illustrated an instance of where price and authenticity can sometimes be connected, I am in no way suggesting price as a sole determining factor. Not even close. The appearance (and provenance) of any items still takes precedence. I simply suggested that if something sells far below it's expected price range, one should ask themselves why it sold so low. Granted, this mostly applies to forgeries where, by and large, most knowledgable collectors can readily identify it as a forgery (thus not bidding on the item)...but where a newer collector might be easier to fool, because they don't have the experience to recognize forgeries.

I have repeatedly made the argument on CS that autograph collectors owe it to themselves to become educated as much as they can about autograph styles...so it's easier to spot forgeries. Too many times have we seen buyers come to CS post-sale saying "Did I buy a forgery?" And more often than not, they did.

I believe in the addage that if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. A $500-1000 unpersonalized Armstrong WSS litho on Ebay probably falls under that category. Likewise, if you look at an Ebay seller's history and see they have sold $200 Abe Lincolns and $100 Elvis Presley's in the past, would you suspect (before seeing said items) that those items were more likely authentic or more likely forgeries?