posted 03-14-2007 04:43 AM               

When asking the owners I often got the same nasty reply "I got this straight from the astronaut office writing to the astronauts" which always sounded like the typical explanation until now...

After some investigation and numerous emails with Bob McLeod we came to the conclusion that there are some heavy weight facts that prove in my opinion that someone in the astronaut office back in the early 70s or even immediately after the moonlanding has unknowingly signed autographs for the three Apollo 11 astronauts.

Bob and I agree these are not secretarial signatures but forgeries since they weren't authorized.

Below shown are several examples that clearly originate from the same hand.
Please note that also mixes of real, autopen and these forgeries do exist.
Apparently not all requests were handled by the same person there. Or possibly some covers were sent in again getting a real or Autopen autograph next time?

The facts are:

1. Covers addressed to Peter Wilhelm were found in his estate, as most of his covers he got them cancelled and returned to him. Afterwards he sent some off to the astronauts to get signed. These were in his collection since then. He wouldn't send one of his covers to anyone else than the astronaut office.

2. Two other collectors confirmed that they have received the same style through the mail back then.

3. A well known official from the space program (name is known to us) confirmed that she obtained that style through Houston.

4. The strange stamp block - why would they feature a fake?

posted 03-14-2007 06:25 AM               

As mentioned, there are some examples above which aren't of these styles: I do believe the top item's Armstrong and the second-from-the-bottom item's Collins are authentic, though the scans here are too small to really tell for sure IMO. The second from the bottom Aldrin is an autopen. (The printed signatures on the stamp block, with the exception of the Armstrong, do appear to all be made from authentic exemplars.)

posted 03-14-2007 06:45 AM               

Yes, all the signatures with the exception of the one "good" Armstrong in my opinion appear to be in the same hand and are certainly "atypical" (forgeries) than the normal usual patterns for that era.

Secondly, I would not be surprised to learn that these are perhaps indeed secretarials -- or done by somebody within the office there -- because of all the mail requests to the Apollo 11 crew within that short time period before Armstrong and Collins first stopped signing postal covers and other philatelic items.

My early writings to the now-Johnson Space Center for astronaut autographs started in 1970-71, but never to the Apollo 11 crew. I do have, however, an Apollo 14 litho of Shepard on the moon that contains a rather lengthy autograph inscription to me -- by Shepard -- that I have always questioned! I do believe this was a secretarial, received from his office during the early 70s, that someone did for him.

Therefore, I would not be completely surprised by these developments, especially involving Apollo 11 crew signatures. Hopefully, it would appear, that such actions were not the "norm" so-to-speak from the astronauts' mail room. Yes, of course, autopens were a constant problem to collectors during the Apollo/Skylab era, but Wilhelm's signatures of the first manned lunar landing crew are a bit puzzling, but not a complete surprise to me, for how he may have gotten them.

posted 03-14-2007 06:46 AM               

No wonder Young charges $500 for his signature these days, he must have been making a killing on the Apollo 11 secondary market for years

posted 03-14-2007 08:50 AM               

When the Apollo 11 crew was on world tour shortly after the flight, they signed a lot of Apollo 11 crew photos. Some, he said, while they were nearly asleep. A member of their entourage became very skilled at forging all three signatures, and he signed some of them in lieu of the crew.

posted 03-14-2007 09:07 AM               

We'll probably never know for sure if this lone secretary took it on herself/himself to forge the signatures or was directed to do so by someone in authority. But it's my opinion that this person did so without authorization to save time and to take some of the burden off the over-used autopen machine during this busy time in 1969/70.

If it was done without authorization, these forgeries IMO shouldn't be given the respectable title of "secretarials" but perhaps should be referred to as "unofficial secretarials" or "NASA forgeries."

But whatever, they are forgeries and fortunately are easy to spot because they are all so similar and from the same hand. And they look to be fairly widespread and had been received by a number of collectors during the Apollo 11 era.

posted 03-14-2007 12:11 PM               

Maybe the autopen machine also didn't catch up with the volumen of autograph requests received them.

Ken: Obviously we can't ask Peter anymore if he received his samples through the mail but knowing Peter and his dislike for any autograph it would be hard to believe he sold the cover addressed to him to someone else and buy it back years later. Peter once said to me that he indeed wrote autograph requests back then but lost interest in favour of the philatelic stuff. Also we habe the confirmation of two other collectors having received these samples through the mail.

Steve: To me they are forgeries whether done officially (called secretarials) or not doesn't matter IMHO.

posted 03-16-2007 09:41 AM               

We have two more confirmations that these type of signatures were received from the astronaut office back in the 70s or late 69.

posted 03-16-2007 11:12 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by spaceflori:
It's quite obvious now.

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posted 03-16-2007 12:07 PM               

The point is that still many people believe they are authentic because they received them directly from the astronaut office then.

posted 05-19-2007 02:13 PM               

Robert's info from the astronauts is interesting, however, I might add that many other celebrities have used secretarial sigs and denied their existence.

President Kennedy's staff (Pierre Salinger) denied the existence of autopens and secretarial sigs for a very long time).

That does not mean that the astronauts are deceiving us, they may simply not have known that this was being done. History has shown that secretaries have taken it upon themselves to do this for souvenior purposes.

I believe these are secretarial signatures and were likely done with the knowledge of very few people.

posted 05-19-2007 02:27 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by fabfivefreddy:
Robert's info from the astronauts...

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posted 05-21-2007 09:23 AM               

Ken H's observations about being a young kid and requesting a signed photo is enlightening ~~ but not surprising. One has to think of the massive volume of mail these men were receiving daily. It has to be true that these secretarial signatures and inscriptions were the norm and not the exception.

One can't possibly believe that the astronauts took time to respond to every request that came in during busy launch or training times. Hundreds of requests were received daily. Classrooms all over the country, and from abroad, sent 30+ school kid letters at a time to these men -- requesting autographs -- and all were answered to some degree. There simply were not enough hours in the day to comply with these many requests. Thus the autopen, and secreterials were used.

posted 05-21-2007 09:42 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by gajs:
It has to be true that these secretarial signatures and inscriptions were the norm and not the exception.

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posted 05-21-2007 10:17 AM               

I'm sure the Apollo 11 secretaries took vacations or sick leave from time-to-time. Maybe a temp struggling with the Autopen machine and desperate to clear a backlog of signature requests took it upon themselves to copy a few examples they had to hand.

posted 05-21-2007 11:47 AM               

I've been told by a friend of the famous rock group Queen (Freddy Mercury) that members of the management indeed signed autographs for these guys and while they didn't know particulary in detail they silently approved that practice.

Also there was a scandal a couple years ago in German soccer when unauthorized people started to sign for players of Bayern Munchen until collectors discovered that practice.

posted 05-22-2007 12:57 PM               

Remember, NASA astronauts -- past and present -- worked for the government's space programs that American taxpayers helped pay for. Non-astronaut celebrities in the entertainment and sports industries had no such association.

Answering and responding positively to NASA's fan mail, including autograph requests, was considered by many within the agency that worked closely with the astronaut corps (i.e. astronaut office workers, their secretaries, and public relations specialists) an important and vital public relations service. It has always been my belief, overall, that many astronaut autographs were indeed authentic with very little, or hardly any, secretarial signatures applied.

Yes, absolutely, thousands of requests were routed to the autopen machine -- many almost on a daily basis -- at NASA's Johnson Space Center.

As Robert pointed out, the space agency did apply autopens all the time. NASA even provided printed and/or fascimile signed photos and letters that many space workers, both government and contractor companies, received as a "thank you" for a job well done.

There was no need, in my opinion and after talking with many space agency folks that worked closely with the astronauts, to provide astronaut autograph requests by secretarial means. It just wasn't the standard procedure, but as I've tried to explain in an earlier post, I know from personal experience that it was done on at least ONE occasion -- to me -- but after hundreds of early astronaut-signature letter-writing attempts that were successful in obtaining genuine autographs.

Florian's recent discovery of Apollo 11 crew secretarials, perhaps are not "secretarials" at all, but rather from an individual(s) that was assigned during man's first lunar landing in 1969 to help out in the astronaut's mail room. Maybe even a zealous mail roon clerk, of course purely speculation, just thought he could "help" process the mail (for Apollo 11) much quicker and applied his/her autograph versions of an Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins.

posted 11-25-2007 08:54 AM               

This piece comes from someone who's been selling many perfect genuine crew signed and multi-signed items including stuff with genuine Armstrong sigs so I don't doubt this came from NASA.

posted 05-09-2010 02:28 PM               

The Aldrin is one of the suspected unofficial secretarial signatures received from the astronaut office. Now this is the first time I have seen a letter coming with the photo, dated April 30, 1971 which is about the time these fake autographs were received.

posted 10-31-2010 03:36 AM               

Indeed it appears to be a classic Armstrong NASA 'secretarial' signature, perfectly matching the style of previous examples we've seen.

posted 10-31-2010 03:43 AM               

Could be very well mixed up with this clear "secretarial" style in order to make it look more authentic.