posted April 10, 2005 08:17 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rizz:
They came with a COA, stating that the couch samples were from the Apollo XIII Spacecraft.

I sent the Lucites and Cosmosphere COA's to Novaspace for Lovell signatures.

Capt. Lovell signed the lucites, but refused to sign the COA's.

---

posted April 10, 2005 09:53 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by John K. Rochester:
Public opinion is fine, but the public jumps to conclusion before hearing evidence... the old "if it's in the paper or on the news, it must be true" adage.

---

So true. The same goes for things like the so called 'suburban myths'. One person at work was slightly amused when I informed her that the tradition of throwing rice at weddings wasn't stopped at some churches because the rice makes pigeons explode when eaten. She was a bit bummed when she found out that there was no truth to the story and it was for more mundane reasons like keeping the place clean and not wanting the NEXT wedding party to have to walk over someone else's 'good wishes'. On top of that, one could actually slip and fall if they step on a bunch of rice on a smooth church step. She was also stunned to learn that Coke didn't dissolve a tooth when it was placed in it.

posted April 10, 2005 07:16 PM               

Do you honestly think that O.J. was innocent? Just because the prosecution did a horrendous job handling the trial and just because Johnny Cockaroach played the race card to a jury of 9 black, 2 hispanic and one white woman, doesn't mean he's innocent. Gee, it took all of 2 hours for the jury to come back with a verdict, after months of a complex trial. The sad reality about the OJ trial is concerned, it was not about race but it shined a spotlight between those who can't and those who can afford to defend themselves. How much justice can you afford? If it was you or I on trial in OJ's place, regardless of the color of our skin, we'd both be sitting in jail for murder.

I keep reading about how a mockup Omega watch isn't worth $25,000. I agree that it's a ridiculous price, but that $25,000 was for the insured value, not what it cost to make. For $25k anyone could get 10 vintage watchs identical to what went to the moon, so the fact that there was a mockup watch at all is beyond me.

On the artifacts that I lend out to museums, I also hike up the value of the items in case the artifact is damaged, lost or destroyed. I'm going to have to fight it out with the insurance company and you know their going to try to beat the value down to as little as possible. That's what the Cosmosphere did when they loaned out this mockup watch and insured it for $25,000.

From the indictment it seems that none of the insurance money recovered from the loss of the mockup watch, made it back to the Cosmosphere's bank acct and it was put into the private bank acct of Max Ary. Why??? Attorneys get sanctioned and disbarred everyday around the USA for just that same co-mingling.

While I agree that you're innocent till proven guilty, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, look at this case without OJ blinders on just because it's Max Ary who's being charged. The indictment is very detailed in it's charges, Superior is providing damning evidence as to the chain of custody and if nothing else, let a judge or jury look at the evidence.

What I'm really curious about is why Max was selling rare space artifacts owned by NASA and NASM under his personal Superior acct, depositing the money in his personal bank acct, while signing the loan papers from NASA saying that all of the items were still at the Cosmosphere????

Like I've said before, Max will plead guilty to one count or possibly a lesser charge, then he'll more than likely pay restitution to all of the victims, then be put on probation so he can keep his position in Oklahoma.

What I'm curious about is why everyone on this board isn't in an uproar about how the dozens of honest people, like Robert Pearlman were victims of Max and how they've all lost their money due to his greed. Does nobody care about the fact that they're the victims because of Max's greed???

Does nobody think it's ironic that Max talks out of one side of his face about how private collectors should never be allowed to own rare artifacts, but then when he's making $180,000 from private collectors through Superior auctions. So I guess then it's ok to sell rare artifacts to us. What a hyprocrite and to me, he's worse than a common thief if the charges are true.

Ray

posted April 12, 2005 09:46 AM               

I agree that Max is innocent until proven guilty, HOWEVER, it's painfully obvious that there was some hankey pankey going on with Max's selling of rare artifacts on loan from NASA & NASM, then signing NASA loan papers saying the items were still at the Cosmosphere. When you're the head honcho of one of the leading museums in the USA, it's your duty to go out of your way and prevent any situation which even has the look of inpropriety, let alone co-mingling funds for your personal enrichment.

As far as judging Max's character because of what the media tells us to think, SROESCH, nobody is even looking at the media reports, we're all looking at the 36 page FEDERAL INDICTMENT. To accuse anyone of listening to the media is pure nonsense and does anyone find it curious that there's a bunch of FNG's on this site that are posting for the first time in support of Max?

I'm not ready to hang Max, he does deserve and have the right to be heard, as we all do. HOWEVER, the US Attorney wouldn't have spent 3+ years investigating, collecting collaborating evidence from multiple sources including NASA, NASM, Superior, Cosmosphere, all of his bank and financial records, plus all of the VICTIMS who lost very rare & expensive artifacts that were confiscated by the federal Gov't.

How about a word of support for the VICTIMS to be compensated by Max??? Is there a single person who posts in support of Max who's given a seconds thought to the dozens of people who've lost thousands of dollars???? They didn't knowingly buy stolen merchandise, but they're the ones paying for Max's greed and those who lost their hard earned money are the ones who deserve justice. I have no desire to see Max in prison and in fact I couldn't care less if he spends one day in jail, I'd just like to see the TRUTH come out.

Fortunately the only one speaking up for the victims is the US Attorney and we'll have to see what type of plea agreement they offer Max, but hopefully it will include restitution for all of the VICTIMS.

Ray

posted April 12, 2005 10:15 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spacepsycho:
Is there a single person who posts in support of Max who's given a seconds thought to the dozens of people who've lost thousands of dollars????

---

For that alone, he deserves the respect by this community enough that we do not jump to conclusions, however "painfully obvious" they may appear now.

posted April 12, 2005 10:52 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by albatron@aol.com:
I was involved in a series of bank robberies in Palm Beach County, Florida

---

I know we are all strapped for cash from time to time, but robbing banks is going way to far!!! ;-)

posted April 12, 2005 05:01 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by collshubby:
I know we are all strapped for cash from time to time, but robbing banks is going way to far!!! ;-)

---

Theres a John Young signing coming up - isnt there? JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!

posted April 13, 2005 10:23 PM               

I'd just like to state the following: I've known Max for over thirty (30) years. When I was a high school student, I worked with him in Hutchinson when the Cosmosphere was still an idea of his. Later, after I had a degree in history and he'd begun to create one of the world's foremost space history centers, I had the privelege of working as an exhibit researcher/writer/designer of his. He has been a mentor to, confidant of and inspiration to me for all those years.

Having read many news accounts of the accusations and indictments against him, I can see how many of you might simply assume he's guilty. Such is human nature, to assume the worst.

Perhaps we should assume the worst. But not of Max Ary, a man I'm certain I've known far longer and know far better than anyone here. At the age of 46, having myself felt the sting of pettiness, jealousy and betrayal, I can tell you there's far more to this story than any of you know.

Max is the rare person who can both conceive great ideas and then make them happen. He's been admired by many... and, without doubt, envied by many. Such people, who must deal with myriad beaureaucrats, city fathers, taxpayers, board members, employees and fellow professionals, inevitably become targets of vitriol for one reason or another. And usually for many reasons.

I've not been in the high-profile positions Max has occupied. But I know what pettiness, jealousy and back-stabbing can do; I have yet to work for an organization where such base characteristics of human nature were not somehow at play. I have, myself, been unjustly accused of improper actions as a professional... by, as a matter of fact, people who understood nothing of my profession.

I suggest that something similar is playing out in this case.

To borrow from the statesman Edmund Burke, all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. I cannot sit on my hands while a dear and loyal friend is vilified. It might not be much, but at this time it may be all I can do: Max is a good and honest man. I know, because I know him well.

posted April 14, 2005 11:52 AM               

John, it's wonderful that you're a friend of Max's, now maybe you can ask him why he "allegedly" stole dozens of rare space artifacts, then sold them through space auctions to private collectors, AND THEN... put the money in his personal bank account. Let's not forget about his signing of NASA loan contracts stating that these rare artifacts were still in the museums collection, even AFTER he personally shipped and sold them through Superior Galleries AND THEN put the money in his personal bank acct.

John... I can see your point about Max being the victim of a vast conspiracy by those who would destroy a man's impeccable reputation for the fun of it. Do you honestly believe the Gov't has charged Max due to petty office politics and professional jealousy? I think it's a good thing you're not Max's attorney and maybe you should let the pro's handle the spin for Max.

As far as nothing is as it seems, you're right, nobody would ever suspect Max of stealing NASA, NASM or Cosmosphere artifacts, then selling them to the private collectors who he holds in disdain and contempt. I think Max should be happy that I'm not a prosecutor, because I find his actions obscene and the abuse of his position only makes what he did all the more detestable.

Since you're so close to Max, perhaps you can ask him when we can expect him to provide a refund to all of his VICTIMS for the $180,000 that they lost when purchasing the stolen items he consigned under his PERSONAL account at Superior? John, how would you like it if you paid thousands of dollars for a rare artifact from a reputable auction house, only to have the Gov't knock on your door and demand it back without restitution or due process?

Like I said before, I don't care if Max goes to prison or not, I just think it's reprehensible that Max's victims are the ones who suffer because Max is lining his pockets with cash from stolen artifacts.

Read my lips, people are not reading the papers or watching TV to get their info about Max, we're getting our information from the 36 page FEDERAL INDICTMENT that the Gov't took YEARS to investigate, compile and confirm. So please don't allude to the media as the source of misinformation or assaults on Max's character because I don't think there's too many members of this board, who believe anything that comes out of the media as the truth.

One thing I have to take issue with is your comment about human nature assuming the worst in people. I guess with your history degree, you picked up a psychology degree in your spare time? Actually human nature is just the opposite of what you believe. The vast majority of people are willing to give Max the benefit of the doubt because of everything he's done to preserve space history. FYI, human nature actually looks for the good in people, so you're wrong when you make inane comments like, we assume the worst in others. Perhaps you're showing a little of your own prejudices in the way you look at humanity or the people around you. For most part, we try to look for the good in everyone.

This is why I'm angry about what Max has done. He's such an important figure to everyone who loves and collects space artifacts. As the vanguard in preserving & protecting our cherished space history, we expect him to go out of his way to prevent any semblance of impropriety. Instead, his exalted position allowed him to take advantage of the trust he earned over the years for his personal financial gain from items he knew didn't belong to him.

Regardless, Max is a big boy, he knew what he was doing, he's responsible for his behavior and when he gets in front of a judge and jury, they'll be the ones to make the final determination. So in the long run, who cares what you or I think about Max.

Old Edmund Burke would be proud that good men did do something and took a stand to stop the evil that Max did to his victims, NASA, NASM and the Cosmosphere. The artifacts that Max stole belonged to all of us, but he sold them to enrich himself personally, regardless of the loss or damage to our space history. Now someone get me a flag so I can wave it for the good guys who actually might win one this time.

Ray

posted April 14, 2005 12:41 PM               

I really enjoy collecting books about the space program and I have a copy of Lost Spacecraft by Curt Newport. Curt has signed this book and so has Jim Lewis who was the helicopter pilot that had to drop the Liberty Bell 7 when his engine threatened to quit. I have been in contact with Max's staff at the Ominplex hoping to be able to send him the book. Unfortunely the book came back from Jim Lewis the same week that Max was indicted. My guess is that Max will not sign anything for me for some time. Still I hope that I can add his signature to the book.

Thanks for posting and keep looking up.

posted April 14, 2005 12:55 PM            

I don't know the complete story about Max's departure from the Cosmosphere, but suffice it to say Max has a lot of very powerful and influential people in his corner. I think there appears to be some bad blood between the new CEO and Max and it could bring about the downfall of one of the two. Court cases are often about who has the deepest pockets for legal fees, and I can assure you the Cosmosphere does not have the kind of money, influence, or goodwill that Max can tap into.

The goods that Novaspace sells on the Astro-Auction for the Gene Cernan Garage sale for the last three years are goods loaned to the Cosmosphere during Max's tenure. When Max left, Cernan asked for everything back. We have a very complete inventory list, and everything, however inconsequential is tagged and bagged, all done during Max's watch. All accounted for.

I don't think members realize who is watching these forums. Not necessarily astronauts (though some do,) but wives, secretaries, assistants and agents (like me) do, and are in positions of great influence. Let's be mindful of what we say.

posted April 14, 2005 02:06 PM               

My 12-yr. old son and I enjoy the KCSC immensely, as well. I think they've been struggling since Max left, something I suspected would happen with his departure.

Such a place requires special leadership, something very difficult to find, especially in such a field. I hope the institution does well.

posted April 14, 2005 02:29 PM               

The risk of tainting a jury's judgement on a case, through gossip and opinion prior to the case 'being heard' is considered too great a risk within the british legal system.

I don't know Mr Ary and wouldn't know him if I fell over him, however I would hope that a jury of his peers, '12 good men and true' have not read any of the recent postings on this site prior to viewing the 'actual' evidence put before them.

posted April 14, 2005 02:30 PM               

I honestly could care less about Max and I'd be just as passionate if it was any curator of a major museum selling ANY artifacts to line their own pockets. But as we all know, Max is not just some nobody, he's the standard by which all others are judged and I expected better from him.

Like I said earlier, I don't care if Max is sent to prison or not, all I want is justice for the DOZENS of victims who lost a LOT of money when their artifacts were confiscated by the federal gov't.

posted April 14, 2005 03:09 PM            

This may make it appear that Max is automatically guilty, but it is merely due process.

posted April 14, 2005 03:52 PM               

Specifically, all members agree to not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy or otherwise violative of any law.

Separately, it the position of this board to enforce that all parties are innocent until proven guilty, that all members have a right to an opinion, and to express that opinion, as long as by doing so does not violate the rules as set forth above and are mindful of others' rights.

Failure to comply with these rules can result in posts being deleted, posting privileges being suspended and/or memberships being revoked.

posted April 14, 2005 04:18 PM               

...and as a side note, if Max is found innocent, all the people who had their artifacts taken as evidence will get them back. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works.

posted April 14, 2005 05:39 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Novaspace:
Steve,
I think you are being a bit "psycho" about this. Indictments are always phrased in such a way to make the accused sound guilty. You'll be eating some big crow and will have burned a lot of bridges should Max be found not guilty.

---

Hi Kim,

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it, an 'indictment' merely means that a jury has found there is enough evidence to bring it to a full trial. Indictments are done by the prosecution side only... again if I am not mistaken. An 'indictment' does NOT mean guilty. It only means that it's going to trial.

Sure, a member of the public may have an opinion on someone's guilt or innocence. They are entitled. We have seen that time and time again of late, have we not?

But when it comes to brass tacks, it all amounts to what evidence they have and whether it sticks.

posted April 14, 2005 06:15 PM            

I had heard of the Cosmosphere investigation but never would I have thought that a man I consider to be a friend be accused of such a thing. Any person that would steal NASA artifacts, sell them at auction, and expect to get away with it is an idiot. Max Ary is no idiot and all I can say is that there is probably far more to this story than I, or any one of us will ever know.

I have known Max for about 20 years, primarily through our mutual interest in seeing the Liberty Bell 7 Mercury spacecraft recovered and restored for public display. In addition, Max and I shared a cabin on the MV Ocean Project for about two weeks during the recovery of Grissom’s Mercury spacecraft. I can state with some confidence that Max Ary is probably one of the “straightest arrows” I have ever met. I think that men like Max are bred that way in the Midwest. For Max to do what he has been accused of goes against everything that defines him as a human being, in my opinion.

I am not saying that Max Ary is at fault. I am not saying that the Cosmosphere is at fault. I am not saying that the Department of Justice is at fault. What I am saying is that everyone needs to keep an open mind on the subject and realize that the Federal Government is not always right when they accuse private individuals of crimes; does anyone here remember a man named Richard Jewell?

Finally, remember this: Tom Stafford quickly voiced his support of Max Ary and that is significant. How can any of us be so swift to judge a man held in such regard by the likes of Tom Stafford?

posted April 14, 2005 06:52 PM               

quote:

---

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

---

posted April 15, 2005 12:35 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Danno:
I'd be interested in hearing the Max Ary side. I've known too many instances where the prosecution went off the deep end and followed a bad trail.

...and as a side note, if Max is found innocent, all the people who had their artifacts taken as evidence will get them back. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works.

---

posted April 23, 2005 01:34 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Danno:
...and as a side note, if Max is found innocent, all the people who had their artifacts taken as evidence will get them back. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is how it works.

Dan

---

Actually not, since the items were considered stolen. So the artifacts never belonged to the buyers in the first place.

posted April 23, 2005 02:02 AM               

Does it make sense that someone in as high a profile as Max would steal items only to sell them on the open market at a highly visible auction and expect no one to notice? That would be like the director of the New York Museum of Modern Art lifting a Picasso off the wall, then auctioning it off from Southeby's hoping not to get caught.

What I have heard beyond the newspaper accounts, would suggest that this was all a case of very sloppy bookkeeping and little more. The Cosmosphere has title to a lot of stuff and can do with it what they please, including selling it. They also have a lot on semi-permanent loan (theirs to keep, but not to sell). If the paperwork gets mixed up, or a new staffer comes in and shuffles things around... it would be easy to lose track of ownership.

At one auction an Apollo IVA jacket was sold that was actually on NASA loan. Some staffer had accidentally traded it away for something else, and it eventually worked its way to Superior. The Cosmosphere was going to try and buy it back, but I got to it before they did :-)

There was nothing special about the jacket, as they had a number of them, but that one specific item was not theirs to sell. They very quickly contacted me, and we made a nice trade as a result.

On another time, I purchased one of the "stolen" items, then contacted the Cosmosphere to get a COA for it. I did not deal with Max, but with one of his assistants, who apparently managed the sales at the auction. So obviously the sales were hardly a secret having been vetted through a number of people. This fellow had full knowledge of all of their lots and expressed amazement that I was able to get this item at such a good price.

posted April 23, 2005 08:10 AM               

Excellent point; hope this all works out to your satisfaction.

Really, how could Max have expected to get away with such a thing? He's NOT stupid. It underscores the obvious nature of the allegations that many seem not to appreciate.

posted April 27, 2005 01:00 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
United States Attorney Eric Melgren said today that defendant Max Ary is set for an initial appearance in federal court at 9:30 a.m. Wednesday, April 27, 2005.

---

posted April 27, 2005 01:26 PM               

quote:

---

Max Ary, who helped create and build the Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center, pleaded not guilty this morning in federal court to 11 charges of fraud, theft and transporting stolen property in connection with items missing from the Hutchinson museum's inventory.

...

"My defense is very, very simple: I'm not guilty," Ary said.

---

posted May 04, 2005 02:53 PM               

The most significant differences with the original indictment are:

Three additional counts (counts No. 5, 9 and 14) of mail fraud in which Ary is charged with using the U.S. Postal system to commit fraud against the Kansas Cosmosphere, denying the Cosmosphere the intangible right to his honest services.

Three additional counts of money laundering (counts No. 7, 11 and 16) in which Ary is charged with depositing checks into his personal accounts after selling artifacts that belonged to the Cosmosphere.

One additional count of interstate transportation of stolen property (count No. 17) based on evidence recovered during a Dec. 18, 2003, search of his home in Oklahoma City. Some items obtained in the search are identified in the superceding indictment. Another list identifies items recovered Dec. 23, 2003.

One additional count (count 19) seeking the forfeiture of property involved in the crimes alleged in the money laundering counts.

Ary now faces the following counts: three counts of wire fraud; two counts of mail fraud; three counts of theft of government property; two counts of mail fraud and denial of honest services; four counts of money laundering; two counts of interstate transportation of stolen property; and two forfeiture counts. The case was investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and NASA's Office of Inspector General.

If convicted, Ary faces a maximum penalty of up to five years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine on each of the wire fraud and mail fraud counts. He faces a maximum penalty of up to 10 years and a $250,000 fine on each count of theft and each count of transportation of stolen properties.