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Author
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Topic: STS-51L crew-issued, flown mission patches
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Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 11-12-2012 01:13 PM
   
For the first time (as far as I know), the family of a member of the ill fated STS-51L Challenger crew has sold (eBay 221152392987) three examples (out of the seven) of the pre-flight crew issued mission patches they had. It was the family of Judy Resnik.These patches differ from the common souvenir versions of this patch by the fact that AB Emblem used a 'white' twill backing instead of the common 'grey' twill one.
The main body of these patches has a 'grey' twill backing, but the sew on tab has a 'white' twill backing. The only known example of a totally 'white' twill backing is from a patch recovered from the 'Official Flight Kit' container along with a 'flown' U.S. flag. These now make up a presentation piece which can be seen at the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum in Washington DC. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-12-2012 02:12 PM
Did a family member sell them or was it a friend of a family member? The description says: These patches were given to my brother by the Resnik family... Just asking if perhaps you learned more through your e-mail contact with the seller. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 11-12-2012 02:53 PM
Yes Robert, I spent over four hours e-mailing with the seller trying to establish what these patches were, and whether they are all identical or not. I still don't know for sure even now.
Yes, the seller is related to the family through marriage and came by these three patches (plus another which he is keeping), through the death of another family member, his brother, who was married to Judy's sister. He only came by four patches, the other three are with another family member who is not very happy that the patches were even listed, let alone sold for the prices I bought them for. (This sale has caused a family problem.) |
garyd2831
Member Posts: 641
From: Syracuse, New York, USA
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted 11-13-2012 01:01 PM
Is the any record to as to how many patches and flags that were flown on STS-51L and how many were recovered? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-13-2012 01:26 PM
To the best of my knowledge, most, if not all, of the STS-51L Official Flight Kit and personal preference kits were recovered intact, still inside the lockers where they were stowed. The patches, like most of the individual items were sealed in plastic pouches.NASA said it would return the OFK items to their respective organizations and that the PPK contents would be given to the family members. The agency also said that each state would be presented with a patch and flag that was stowed on Challenger for its ill-fated flight. There were at least 1,000 patches and more than 2,000 flags aboard. If I recall correctly, at least one package of 25 crew patches did separate from the cabin and was later found floating off the shore in New England. The patches were recovered, still sealed in plastic, and returned to NASA. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-13-2012 01:44 PM
There are STS-51L flown flag and patch displays around the nation, including one at the Frontiers of Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas. I believe another is on display in the Reagan Library in California.On edit: Here's another, Ohio's display as exhibited at the Armstrong Air and Space Museum. And New York's is on display at the Cradle of Aviation in Garden City. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-13-2012 02:07 PM
Exploring this a bit through Google, I've accounted for the following STS-51L flown patch and flag displays: California: Ronald Reagan Presidential Library, Simi Valley
- New Mexico: Museum of Space History, Alamogordo
- New York: Cradle of Aviation, Garden City
- Ohio: Armstrong Air and Space Museum, Wapakoneta
- South Carolina: State Museum, Columbia
- Texas: Frontiers of Flight Museum, Dallas
- Smithsonian: National Air and Space Museum
- Onizuka Air Force Station, Calif. (a flown STS-51L patch, Air Force Satellite Control Facility patch and a large U.S. flag were on presented by NASA to the base and displayed there until its closure in 2010; current location, unknown.)
I'll add to this as I or others find additional displays... |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3177
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 11-14-2012 01:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin T. Randall:
These patches differ from the common souvenir versions of this patch by the fact that AB Emblem used a 'white' twill backing instead of the common 'grey' twill one.
I should point out that right now we don't know if more than one of these three patches is actually of the scarce white backing cloth variety.We've seen examples of STS-51L patches that came from crew members in the past (Dick Scobee's patches) although these appear to have been gray backing cloth versions. I don't believe that all the white versions went into the OFK so it wouldn't be surprising to see crew family/friend examples of this patch. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 11-17-2012 03:45 AM
I now have very good images of these three STS-51L 'Resnik' pre-flight issued patches, both the fronts and backs. All three patches are basically the same, with a 'grey' twill main body, and a 'white' twill sew on tab. (Though the top patch has a thicker, whiter plastic coated back, and a slightly different coloured grey border).  
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Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 12-17-2012 01:26 PM
A fourth example of one of these patches has sold (for $250). |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3177
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 10-14-2013 08:09 AM
I note that a white-tabbed patch was sold on eBay (360764028281) in original KSC packaging. This shows that at least some examples of this 'hybrid' were sold commercially. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-14-2013 08:43 AM
It looks like two were sold from the same seller. The other one was 221297115269. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-14-2013 09:14 AM
I also saw that AB Emblem STS-51L patch in the KSC packet.Interesting to see the date on the KSC packet is February 1988, two years after the event. So it looks like AB Emblem was using up older stock at that point in time. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 10-17-2013 06:12 PM
I just received the patch today. Here are scans of the item. The 2-88 date was a surprise as well. The backing seems to match the top one of Kevin's scan above, with the thicker "waffle" backing.  
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Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-18-2013 01:04 AM
Very nice Liem! That's the fifth example of this 'crew variant' or 'hybrid' patch to be found. So a few were sold to the public, and are out there somewhere. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 10-22-2013 04:08 PM
It looks like another one has appeared on eBay (111196348212). |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-23-2013 03:19 AM
Yes Liem, I spotted this one too. It will be very interesting to see what this one (No.6) fetches in an open auction? |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 10-23-2013 01:08 PM
I sent the seller an e-mail. He indicated that, "I acquired it from a 30 year air force veteran who collected patches from all his duty stations and travels around the world. I bought his collection of over 1200 patches. Mostly squadron patches, only a few NASA patches." |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 10-24-2013 12:22 PM
I picked up an STS-51L patch in a newer KSC packet last month I call the "mock white tab": From the front the patch appears to be a common gray/gray unit, yet at first glance, the back appears to be a white tab/gray body unit, however closer inspection reveals that tab has a thin plastic veneer over the gray twill on the tab. An interesting curiosity if anything. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-24-2013 01:20 PM
Also that patch has the missing star too, and has a very shiny plastic coated backing to the main body of the patch. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-24-2013 06:56 PM
Another "mock white tail/missing star" version is on eBay (111225231471). It has the more modern dark border thread. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 12-10-2013 01:17 AM
A seventh example of the STS-51L 'crew issued hybrid' patch with the white sew on tab, has just been sold (161166108890) in a mixed lot of mostly Swissartex shuttle patches in KSC packets. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 12-10-2013 09:39 AM
I suspected it was the hybrid based on the light edge of the tab and asked the seller for a backside photo, which he abliged. The photo he sent me is the top left photo: I suggested he'd get better traction with his auction if he posted the backside photo to his auction, but very much to Kevin's good luck, he did not! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-10-2013 09:49 AM
So what does this mean for the rarity of the "hybrid" patch? Previously it was thought to be limited to the crew only, and now we have examples showing up in private collections and even packaged for retail sale. Was too much assumed by the few Resnik-family sourced examples? Could they have been retail patches that she or her family were given (or even bought)? Clearly, the hybrid is rarer than the standard gray-backed-tab souvenir, but could that just be a factor of the many more years the souvenir has been in production? |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 12-10-2013 10:36 AM
This is only the seventh example of this 'hybrid' patch that I know about to come onto the secondary market. It was just this time last year that three of the four Resnik family examples were put up for sale, the fourth was in January this year. The fifth was found in amongst a collection from an USAF officer who was linked to the shuttle program. The sixth was found in a sealed KSC retail packet dated February 1988. And the seventh was from an accumulation which may well have come from the Kennedy Space Center souvenir shop. I have a feeling that the sixth and seventh were probably remains of the original production run made by AB Emblem for the crew of the Challenger, and were simply leftovers found and put into KSC packets to make up an order to sell at the Kennedy Space Center. I still think this 'hybrid' version of the STS-51L patch is still an early rare limited production run of maybe 50 or 100 patches. I have a feeling now that we know what to look for, more will turn up over the next few years. I'm still looking very hard for the full white twill version, like the ones found in the presentation pieces made up after the recovery of the Official Flight Kit. I am hoping one or two of these will turn up in similar circumstances to these last two 'hybrid' patches. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 47770
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 12-10-2013 11:33 AM
If the full-white-backed patches were indeed limited to the OFK, then any examples that turn up could be stolen from the debris. At least one package of the patches, still sealed in plastic, was recovered from the water after it floated up the East Coast to New England, if I recall correctly. The package was ultimately turned over to NASA, but I don't recall reading if the full contents of the OFK were recovered. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 12-10-2013 12:55 PM
I feel a few, what we call 'production over-runs', or a spare pack or two not used for the OFK, will of been put into KSC retail packets to complete an order from the Kennedy Space Center visitors shop, (like the 'Hybrid' patch found sealed in the KSC packet dated February 1988). |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-08-2014 05:24 PM
I have purchased another hybrid patch in an auction on eBay in a mixed lot of other random shuttle/Apollo common/coated patches, I believe that makes for eight known articles. |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 10-31-2014 03:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin T. Randall:
(like the 'hybrid' patch found sealed in the KSC packet dated February 1988).
Another one of these STS-51L 'hybrid' patches has turned up (251697537492) sealed in another 'type 2' KSC packet, making it nine known examples.Update: 23rd Nov 2014: A third example of this 'hybrid' STS-51L patch in a sealed 'type 2' KSC packet has just been sold (for $153.50, 361120610894). |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 11-26-2014 08:19 AM
Yet another example of this STS-51L 'hybrid' patch has just been sold as part of a lot of five mostly shuttle patches on eBay (121491638424), bringing the count to 11. Unfortunately this example had some brown splash stains across the lower half of the patch and tab. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 12-01-2014 07:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin T. Randall:
Yet another example of this STS-51L 'hybrid' patch...
I wasn't 100% sure it was a hybrid when I bid. I was about 60/40 on it based on the auction photos and a lack of a back photo. The patch cleaned up remarkably well. Probably irrelevant, but the tab has a slightly different appearance than the ones scanned in this thread. The gray border embroidery isn't as pronounced on the reverse.  |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 12-02-2014 01:38 PM
I too was not absolutely sure that the STS-51L patch was one of the 'hybrid' versions. I did try to communicate with the seller, but got no response from him to my questions about the back, or the stains on the front of that patch. With that being the case I decided not to bid for that set of five patches.It's great news that you managed to clean off the brown splash stains from the lower front of the patch Liem. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 01-27-2015 03:37 PM
On the anniversary of the accident, many photos are being posted, including ones of the plaque at JSC, which appears to be hybrid version as well. The black you see in this is due to shadow from the recessed area in the wood the patch is mounted in. Photo credit: Flickr user David Jones.  |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 01-30-2015 04:43 PM
I was under the impression that the OFK-recovered patches were of the white backing crew variety (as the Smithsonian version is) but it does not appear that is the case for all. Onizuka Air Force Station's copy is gray on gray:  State of Ohio presentation:  Ditto for the State of New York presentation:  |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 01-31-2015 04:31 PM
There was an interesting discussion about the STS-51L "hybrid" patches on Facebook this week. One of the owners of a hybrid patch said this about receiving his: I did find one item that I am not sure that either Kevin or Chris picked up on on these patches, that sets them apart form the other few white tabbed patches shown on cSpace. On the crew patch that was issued to the crew, according to the e-mail from the seller, the maker put two red dots, one under the nose and one on top. Looking at the thread on cSpace, the other white tabbed back "crew patches" do not have those two little red dots. Both Robert Pearlman and I confirmed that our hybrid patches have the red dots below the nose, as well as those in the photos above. However, I also found examples of standard souvenir versions with the two under-nose red dots, but not all of them. Purely speculation on my part, but it may be possible to use the location of the "dots" (anchor threads) to put a window around the time of manufacture for the various runs of the patches. It would have to be validated with those in original packaging. Other versions with locations of these red "dots": - Two under nose, one by "O" in Onizuka
- One atop nose, one under nose protrusion, two near start of yellow "swoosh"
- One above nose protrusion - also missing star
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Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1379
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 02-01-2015 05:19 AM
Yes Liem, I noticed the red dots in various places around the borders of the STS-51L patches, including the later 'one piece' versions of this patch. I think it is going to be very difficult to tie down which red dots occurred in which part of the 30 year time frame? (Even in say the first ten years of production).Yes it is looking more likely that very few, (if any) of the full white twill backed 'crew' patches, (main body as well as the sew-on tab), will ever come to light, even in official NASA presentation pieces.
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hoorenz
Member Posts: 1035
From: The Netherlands
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 02-01-2015 08:42 AM
Basically, the red threads represent the route that the embroidery head and the thread take when moving from one patch to the next (multiple patches are being sewn closely together on one large piece of twill in the most economical way). The red thread on top of the nose of the orbiter in this example, ended up at the bottom of the yellow orbit of the patch that once was above and to the right of it. I think their locations somewhat depend on where the patch originates in the "grid." If the patch was on one of the edges of the large twill, and there was no "next patch" where the embroidery head (and the thread) had to go, these lines (and thus some of the dots) might not be there. So even in one batch of patches, there might be variations. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-01-2015 12:59 PM
I suppose it would be impossible to assign "dots" to a specific vintage, considering that even within the same packaging style you can find a one piece, missing star or standard version. |
garyd2831
Member Posts: 641
From: Syracuse, New York, USA
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted 02-02-2015 06:37 PM
Here is my take on the whole STS-51L "crew" or not crew patch issue here. Yes, some of the AB emblem patches have red dot(s), but I wouldn't get excited to call it a "crew patch" and more of a production technicality. A1l BIG patches are "crew" patches, 51L is production with subtle production differences with the AB manufacturing process. This is just my opinion unless someone can produce a document from AB Emblem stating that specific "crew" patches made, specifically for the 51L astronauts, NASA employees and presentations have white tabs, red dots, etc, these are all production anomalies. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 777
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-02-2015 07:10 PM
I can confirm a 12th hydrid. It was owned by a personal friend of the late Steven Nagel who went to KSC to watch STS-61A launch. |
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