Author
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Topic: Apollo 15 mission patch: variants and versions
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dmash4077 Member Posts: 64 From: Prattville Al Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-22-2007 07:05 PM
Can anyone tell me the significance of the silver border (rather than blue border) Apollo 15 embroidered crew patches?![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/dmash4077/apollo15_silver_border_patch01.jpg) |
Jay Member Posts: 82 From: Bloomington, Illinois, USA Registered: May 2005
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posted 05-22-2007 08:02 PM
I have been a collector for over 35 years, and I had never seen a vintage silver bordered Apollo 15 patch. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 05-23-2007 01:25 AM
I don't know anything about these silver border versions, although I would like to get one some time just to see it up close. |
Bill Hunt Member Posts: 404 From: Irvine, CA Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 05-23-2007 01:39 AM
This to me doesn't seem like any kind of particularly special patch, other than that it's a nice variation from the norm. I certainly wouldn't mind having one of the silver bordered variations, but I wouldn't pay too much for it. |
dmash4077 Member Posts: 64 From: Prattville Al Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-23-2007 06:34 PM
I just got a silver border patch in today, very good looking patch, and it is vintage with bare back. I am surprised we haven't seen these around before? |
E2M Lem Man Member Posts: 846 From: Los Angeles CA. USA Registered: Jan 2005
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posted 05-24-2007 02:39 PM
My father went aboard the recovery carrier 'Okinawa' as it left Hawaii for California in 1971 brought his star-struck son some goodies, including an Apollo 15 large patch with no crew names on it. Has anyone seen this before? Why no crew names on the patch? |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-18-2007 08:52 AM
Whilst putting together my Crew Patches website I noticed that there appears to be a distinct hallmark present on both the silver and gold thread versions of the Apollo 15 crew patch.I don't remember seeing this mentioned before. Does anyone know what it represents? NB: Image since modified to take into account findings of thread. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/spacedout/patch_as15_crew_hallmark_500x200.jpg) Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Go4Launch Member Posts: 562 From: Seminole, Fla. Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 07-19-2007 05:32 PM
That's interesting. I don't know, but at minimum it seems reasonable to think it may be an additional protective hallmark only added to the silver and gold versions? |
Harald Kraenzel Member Posts: 312 From: Dinslaken,Germany Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 07-20-2007 01:37 AM
If you accept that the possible hallmark could be "4H" it might read "for Henry"?The father of the actual President of AB Emblem (Mr. Bernie Conrad) was Mr. Henry Conrad. Maybe an uncommon thought but... |
Harald Kraenzel Member Posts: 312 From: Dinslaken,Germany Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 07-20-2007 02:28 AM
In addition to my earlier post (the hallmark reads "4H") it could also mean: - 4 for fourth moon landing
- H for Hadley-Apennine region as the landing site
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Harald Kraenzel Member Posts: 312 From: Dinslaken,Germany Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 07-23-2007 05:31 PM
Finally I asked AB Emblem to tell something about these patches.Today I received the following answer: I checked with Mr. Conrad on the Apollo 15 patch. There is an XV stitched in the patch, but the other parts you were asking about does not seem to be part of the design. They are in two different locations on the patch leading me to believe they were not made by the same patterns. I have no true explanation for them. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-24-2007 01:54 AM
Maybe if someone can ask Dave Scott. With a good clear printout of the two patches and the hallmark highlighted it might prompt his memory (if the crew were involved in that kind of detail). |
Voskhod Member Posts: 72 From: Oxfordshire, UK Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-24-2007 03:35 AM
I know Al Worden has the answer. At one of his Autographica talks in the UK he mentioned the XV to the right of the badge design and the other logo hidden bellow. Now here's the difficult important bit: I can't remember, but believe it is the initials of the patch designer. |
Voskhod Member Posts: 72 From: Oxfordshire, UK Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 07-24-2007 03:43 AM
Found this on a website: "The mission patch for Apollo 15 was basically designed by the Italian dress designer, Emilio Pucci. He was, as I best recall, an aeronautical engineer, and had a good feeling for flight... The symbolism is of three stylized birds flying over the lunar surface, each indicating one of us who were on the flight.." - Al Worden, Command Module pilot. I remember Al Worden saying Emilio Pucci the designer included the symbol at the bottom of the patch. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-24-2007 05:27 AM
Actually Robert suggested this possibility when I mentioned the hallmark to him. I did a quick search but couldn't find a logo for his design work. I suppose the mark could be a stylized E with a P overlaid at the top... |
Harald Kraenzel Member Posts: 312 From: Dinslaken,Germany Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 07-24-2007 06:25 AM
I was able to find the following link.On the lower left you can see a writing where the first "letter" looks somewhat similar to the hallmark we are discussing here. |
KSCartist Member Posts: 3043 From: Titusville, FL Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 07-24-2007 08:20 AM
Harald, based on that link I believe you nailed it. That "4H" hallmark is Emilio's initials. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-24-2007 08:21 AM
Nice searching. It's actually the signature you spotted on the website that matches. If you look at the way the hallmark is written on the Silver XV version it's definitely the stylised "E" from the designer's signature.The bottom open rounded hook in the website image is converted into a straight closed hook on the patch, but otherwise it's the same. On the gold XV version the hallmark is actually upside down. Another mystery solved by the collectSPACE team. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 07-24-2007 11:58 AM
I've just updated the webpage and the illustration of the hallmark. If you refresh the image in my first post you'll see my interpretation of the hallmark versus Emilio Pucci's signature. |
edorr Member Posts: 100 From: Chelmsford, MA Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-24-2007 07:09 PM
Too cool guys! It's just so exhilarating to see new stuff still being uncovered and shared about these older, pre-STS patches. I keep hoping to find stories to add to my site (which focuses specifically on such patches), but get discouraged about the prospects as the years roll inexorably past. Major kudos to you! |
aerospace educator unregistered
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posted 07-26-2007 03:04 PM
If the "hallmark" in question on the Apollo 15 patch is indeed that of the patch designer Emilio Pucci, why does it not show up in the NASA image of the official logo? The "X" and "V" are shown in the NASA image of the logo and are made from the shadowed edges of two and a half craters.In the book "All We Did Was Fly To The Moon," Command Module Pilot Al Worden is quoted as saying: The mission patch for Apollo 15 was basically designed by the Italian dress designer, Emilio Pucci. We had as a crew evaluated some 540 different designs for our crew patch. They appeared either too mechanical or too complicated or to have nothing to do with the flight, so finally, through a mutual friend, we asked Pucci if he would help us with the design. Now, Pucci, as I best recall, was an aeronautical engineer and had a good feeling for flight. With his artistic nature, we felt that he would be very helpful in the patch design. He did send us a design which was basically the same as the patch we eventually used, however, the colors were in the normal Pucci blues, purples and greens. We took his design, changed it from a square to a circular patch, made it red, white and blue and put a lunar background behind the three stylized birds that were the major Pucci contribution. The symbology is of three stylized birds flying over the lunar surface, each indicating one of us who were on the flight. The lunar surface behind the patch shows the landing site (next to Hadley Rille at the foot of the Apennine Mountains) and directly behind the stylized birds is a crater formation that spells "15" in Roman Numerals. You can also see from the stylized birds that they fly in formation with one on top and two closer to the lunar surface, indicating those who actually landed. By this account, the Apollo 15 crew and not Pucci put in the lunar background that included the "XV. |
Harald Kraenzel Member Posts: 312 From: Dinslaken,Germany Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 07-26-2007 03:46 PM
You can also ask, "Why does the upside down and slightly rotated "15" shown at the bottom of Lion Brother Apollo 15 patches not show up in the NASA official logo?"And further on why do the initials of all astronauts and cosmonauts of that mission on the special 5-inch ASTP patches made by AB Emblem not show up in the NASA official logo? These are special patches which all use the official logo as a base and have it modified following the needs. And the both Apollo 15 patches discussed here are special patches having the "XV" stitched with silver and gold threat and therefore are not the official patches. Hence I think those special patches cannot be compared with the official NASA logos. |
KSCartist Member Posts: 3043 From: Titusville, FL Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 07-26-2007 03:47 PM
The fact that the initials or "4H" hallmark is not in the "official artwork" doesn't mean the anecdotal evidence presented here isn't accurate also. Certainly arrangements could have been made to make a number of patches with the hallmark included. Whether or not Pucci did this or one of the crew made those arrangements may never be known. If true, it would have been an appropriate tribute to the artist. I wish I had thought of it when I worked on Expedition 11. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-10-2007 07:48 AM
I don't know how I missed this at the time, but I just noticed that in the Aurora Galleries' Spring 2006 auction, there is a handwritten note from Dave Scott to a Stan (presumably the person creating the crew patch) reading: The "E" to be included in the surface of the design is formed thus... ...followed by a drawing of the stylized "E" of Emilio Pucci. The lot also came with a copy of a letter from Pucci to Scott, the details of which are sadly not included in the listing. |
lunareagle Member Posts: 603 From: Michigan Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-02-2007 03:57 PM
In regard to the Pucci signature, the flown silver and gold Apollo 15 Robbins medals with the misspelled Apenine landing site that are numbered 1 through 127 also have the Pucci insignia at 6 o'clock on the medal. The unflown restrikes with the corrected Apenine spelling that are numbered 128 through 304 had the Pucci insignia removed. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-11-2009 01:57 PM
When I originally put the Apollo 15 page of my Crew Patches site together I found nice clear patches of the patches on the crew's recovery flight suits showing they were using the AB Emblem patch.The images from photos taken at a meal onboard the recovery ship later the same day weren't so clear but I put the differences down to lighting angles and thread sheen. At the time it didn't really occur to me that they might have used different patches on different suits. Following the realisation that the Apollo 12 crew did indeed wear different patches on their different suits I decided to take a better look at some of the other crews. So, it looks like the Apollo 15 crew used a different patch on the flight suits they changed into after recovery, as shown in the images below. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/spacedout/patch_as15_mystery.jpg) The layout, border size, writing etc are all practically identical to the regular AB patch but the lunar surface has lots more dark areas and the "XV" is embroidered in grey thread rather then black. It may be an AB variant but it's not one I've seen. I'm hoping someone out there has an example so I can add a good scan to the site. |
Voyager1975 Member Posts: 188 From: Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 02-11-2009 03:54 PM
It also looks to me that the "mystery patch" also has light blue trim around the border as opposed to the darker blue trim on all the other crew variants of this patch. Maybe it is just the lighting in the picture? |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-11-2009 04:57 PM
The blue border does look a little lighter but it's difficult to be sure.I've just updated the original pictures with a couple of higher-res scans thanks to J.L. Pickering of RetroSpaceImages.com. The details are much clearer now. I'm still waiting for one of the usual suspects to pull an example of this patch out of a drawer and send in a scan. |
Voyager1975 Member Posts: 188 From: Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 02-11-2009 05:48 PM
Sounds great! Also are you sure it is not a Lion Brothers patch? |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-12-2009 03:21 AM
It's not a match for any of the patch versions already in the gallery section of my site. |
andrewcli Member Posts: 328 From: La Jolla, CA, USA Registered: Jul 2007
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posted 09-01-2009 03:33 PM
I found out four proofs for the Apollo 15 patch were created by AB Emblem, the silver, gold and black "XV." Any idea what the fourth one was? Could it be the one with the original Pucci colors of purple and green, or the one with the silver border? |
Go4Launch Member Posts: 562 From: Seminole, Fla. Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 09-05-2009 11:49 AM
I'm extremely dubious that the "new" patch in question is anything terribly special. Most if not all of the variances mentioned could well be attributed to lighting, contrast, etc., even the lens used on the camera and the angle the photo was taken. It's also possible they may have just come from different production runs at AB, as Chris speculates. They are both AB-made for sure. As for "proofs," again, I would highly-doubt AB would do a proof patch in Pucci's colors. Indeed, according to Worden, the crew turned down Pucci's color scheme at the same time they rejected his proposal of making it a square patch. AB did make proofs with the outer "name ring" of the patch embroidered in both silver and gold mylar. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 09-05-2009 12:08 PM
My feeling today is that the 'mystery' patch is indeed the standard AB patch in unusual lighting conditions. Whilst most photos are in daylight, the above images were taken inside the recovery ship, probably under flash lighting. I think this gives the patches a completely different appearance.I'll try to update the page on my site shortly. |
Bill Hunt Member Posts: 404 From: Irvine, CA Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 09-05-2009 03:41 PM
I know about the proof with the silver border, and I've seen an astronaut proof set with 1 black XV, 1 gold VX and 1 silver XV. The black XV patch is indistinguishable from the standard issue. So my guess is that the patch pictured is indeed a regular issue. Colors looking slightly different could be about lighting conditions and photochemical photo/age of photo issues. As for the border looking slightly different, this COULD be due to stitching around the border as well.On edit: It could ALSO be one of the silver XV proof versions, and the angle of the light just makes the XV look gray in this photo. The one on the left in particular looks like it's got a lot of dark stitching/shadows that COULD be the artist signature. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 06-26-2012 12:34 PM
I came across a version of the Apollo 15 mission patch this last week which was new to me and by complete coincidence John Bisney spotted an example of the exact same patch whilst on a tour of the Pima Air & Space Museum.My example was very discolored and had been previously mounted but it has a bare cloth back which makes it potentially vintage. That said, the fill stitch style visible in the outer white border and in the gray background areas looks to me to be quite modern so it may be a more recent reproduction patch. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/spacedout/patch_as15_unk3.jpg) With no manufacturer information to go on I've given this the AS15UNK3 identification on my site for now. |
p51 Member Posts: 1765 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
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posted 06-26-2012 05:06 PM
Does anyone know what the original design was? Al told me last year that the original design was laughable and they only kept the three arrow shapes... |
FFrench Member Posts: 3288 From: San Diego Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-26-2012 05:17 PM
Original design description on P.144 of "Falling To Earth."And two later-draft designs can be seen on this page. |
Gonzo Member Posts: 598 From: Holland, MI, USA Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 06-27-2012 05:51 AM
quote: Originally posted by FFrench: Original design description on P.144 of "Falling To Earth."
Indeed. I happen to have a copy of "Falling To Earth" from our local library right now. I just read the paragraphs about how the patch was designed. I never knew there was a hidden "XV" in the background (NASA required numbers, they wanted to use Roman numerals so they "hid" the Roman numerals in the background). |
Liembo Member Posts: 833 From: Bothell, WA Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 02-03-2013 12:22 AM
I have two Lion Brothers Apollo 15 patches that have quite different appearance on the back side:![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/liembo/apollo15a.jpg) The patch on the left is the oddball. The stitching feels like it is coated with something. On the patch of the right, you can gently pry apart the threads, but not on the left, and obviously the coloration is different. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/liembo/apollo15b.jpg) From the front they are virtually identical: ![](http://www.collectspace.com/review/liembo/apollo15d.jpg) (the top one is the one with the chunky back) Any ideas why there is a difference? I don't suspect this is the "plastic backed" version, as that (according to crewpatches.com) has horizontal, not radial stitching in white. Thanks folks. |
spaced out Member Posts: 3189 From: Paris, France Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-04-2013 07:15 AM
The one with the stiffer back is a later Lion Brothers production. LB continued to produce their Apollo mission patches through until the early 1980s and although the design of the patches remained unchanged through this period they did introduce a thicker starch coating on the backs at some stage. |