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Author
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Topic: STS-51L / Challenger mission patch
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Voyager1975
Member Posts: 188
From:
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 02-23-2009 11:53 AM
   
We all know the differences between the embroidery techniques due to newer machines used today and of course the older machines used when these patches and the STS-51L patch in particular were first made. However besides those embroidery changes there are two very noticeable differences in the original AB Emblem STS-51L patch and the current AB Emblem version. First in the current version, the shade of gray used in the border or outline around the edge of the patch seems a lot darker. Secondly, there is no longer the thin gray line that ran underneath the gold fuel trail that comes out of the shuttles main engines. |
randyc
Member Posts: 787
From: Denver, CO USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 10-11-2009 03:13 PM
I recently purchased an STS-51L patch that does not have the McAuliffe/Jarvis tab from an individual who lives in Hawaii who told me that he bought it at an estate sale of a real estate agent who lived in Hawaii who knew the Onizuka family and was given the patch by Ellison Onizuka. The patch appears to be of high quality and the comet is made with silver thread (not sure if the "commercial" type patches used silver thread).So here are my questions: - Were STS-51L patches made for the crew before Christa McAuliffe and Greg Jarvis were assigned?
- If patches were made prior to the assignment of McAuliffe and Jarvis is there a way to tell whether this is one of them and not a souvenir type patch?
- Is there a way to tell if the tab was removed by looking at the back of the patch?
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Mike Dixon
Member Posts: 1510
From: Kew, Victoria, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 10-11-2009 05:29 PM
Yes, there was a commercial version that used the silver thread. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 45488
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 10-11-2009 06:33 PM
In 2006, Aurora Auctions offered a final design "sketch" of the STS-51L patch as signed and presented by the crew back to its artist, Ernie Reyes. Accompanying the lot were copies of seven other design variations reviewed by the crew.  According to a letter included with the sketches, the basic design was devised by Reyes, his wife and daughter on the evening of July 22, 1985. The five prime crew members for STS-51L were named in January 1985. McAuliffe was announced by then-Vice President George H. W. Bush as a member of the STS-51L crew on July 19, 1985, three days before Reyes began designing the patch at the request of commander Dick Scobee. Greg Jarvis was not added to the crew until October 1985. Without knowing when the first patches were produced but given the time line of when the crew members were assigned and the patch was designed, it doesn't seem consistent that a patch would have been made without (at least) McAuliffe included. Therefore, I would lean toward Randy's patch having had its tab removed (or lost) rather than produced before a tab was added. |
spaced out
Member Posts: 3145
From: Paris, France
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 10-12-2009 02:08 AM
My guess is that following STS-51E all patches were produced as bodies with separate tabs so that any changes in payload specialists could be incorporated without having to re-make the entire run of patches.The AB Emblem STS-51L patches are no exception, so AB examples from the time will usually have sewn-on tabs. A tabless patch from any of the 1984/5 missions is simply one that didn't have the tab attached for whatever reason and doesn't necessarily indicate a version made prior to the announcement of the extra crewmembers. |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1780
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 04-06-2013 12:58 PM
While not actually a patch collector, I have managed to acquire a number through the years, with a few that I've always been curious about their status and desirability.These two STS-51L patches are slightly different, with the bottom patch slightly smaller than the top one. Any info about these would be appreciated.  |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 3156
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 04-06-2013 12:59 PM
Bob, the top left STS-51L patch depicted of the crew emblem design came from Cape Kennedy Medals (CKM), an associate of my firm for many years. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 09-22-2013 03:43 PM
I just noticed that, at some point, A-B Emblem removed a star from their STS-51L souvenir patch (their version with the gray line under the yellow "swoosh"). I was looking at a patch that I had recently purchased on eBay and noticed the star was missing, I figured it was just an embroidery flaw. Another one came up on eBay this week, which led me to suspect a batch flaw. Then I did an image search and found this is the version currently sold by A-B Emblem on their website (and others, like The Space Store). Any idea why such a subtle change was made?  |
Hart Sastrowardoyo
Member Posts: 3451
From: Toms River, NJ
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-22-2013 06:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Without knowing when the first patches were produced but given the time line of when the crew members were assigned and the patch was designed, it doesn't seem consistent that a patch would have been made without (at least) McAuliffe included.
In an interesting "what if," the 28 March 85 "Space Shuttle Payload Launch Schedule and Astronaut Flight Assignments" issued by Morton Thiokol lists 51L as indeed carrying the Teacher In Space PS (no name) - but the base crew of what became 61C (Gibson-Bolden) as the 51L crew.This was a six-person crew, although presumably a seventh would have been added. So it is conceivable, depending on when the patch was designed, for at least a basic crew patch to be made and then an apron (tab) made with the payload specialists. Scobee, Smith and the others were assigned as the 61C crew, with an RCA Payload Specialist and another payload specialist to be named. That flight was also to have carried EASE/ACCESS. |
lunarrv15
Member Posts: 1355
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, Hamilton
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-18-2013 11:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Liembo:
Any idea why such a subtle change was made?
I have seen two STS-51L patches, one in US Space Camp packaging, where the star before the comet is missing.I am gambling it is a rarity error patch or AB Emblem is unaware they are leaving out a star. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-18-2013 06:36 PM
I would imagine the missing star is intentional (for what purposes, I don't know) as this is the version AB Emblem sells on its own site. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-20-2013 12:57 PM
I posted an inquiry on their website and, long story short, A-B Emblem doesn't have any record as to why this change occurred. Based on packaging, it would appear that the star went away at some point after 1990. However, when they switched to their alternate STS-51L (the kind as seen currently at the Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex's The Space Shop and the kind packaged for the Astronaut Hall of Fame), they had the star intact. These versions can be identified by the missing gray line under the yellow "swoosh." It appears that A-B is producing two versions of the STS-51L patch concurrently. The "classic" style (minus the star) on their website and through other vendors such as The Space Store, and the other version (dark gray border, missing gray line under swoosh) which they currently sell to the KSCVC and some other vendors. Other vendors: - Skyforce Patches: image shows classic with star
- Space Boosters UK: image shows classic minus star
- Spaceflight Now store: image shows new version
- Spacetos.com: image shows classic minus star
- thespaceoutlet.com: image shows classic minus star - actually stocks new version
- spaceshoponline.com (GSFC): image shows classic with star
Based on this, and assuming what they show on their web page is actually representative of the patch they ship, I don't think the version missing the star is hard to find, it's the currently available version for that patch. The real mystery continues to be "why" it went away. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 45488
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-20-2013 01:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Liembo:
...assuming what they show on their web page is actually representative of the patch they ship
In most cases, if not all cases, it is an old image and not representative of the patch they ship. The star-less patch image just became the defacto representative of the AB Emblem STS-51L patch and hasn't been updated. The former Countdown Creations had the star-less patch also pictured, but never shipped that version. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-20-2013 02:06 PM
I have put in inquiries to all of the above vendors to see if they can verify which version they have in stock. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-22-2013 09:45 AM
Based on information from A-B and my own digging around, it would appear that the photo that A-B prepared for their website as well as their vendors was distinct in the fact that it was missing the star, but it does not represent current stock (which is the version that lacks the gray line under the yellow swoosh). This photo was likely used by most online vendors because it was provided by A-B to them, but does not represent their actual stock, as Robert said. What does that mean for the "missing star" version? I now am leaning more toward it looking more like this was a fairly limited production. Based on past and present eBay offerings, it does not come up very often, certainly less than 5% (I don't see any in the recent past or present based on my eBay search criteria). It could be purely coincidence that A-B took a photo of one of these variations without even noticing the missing star. Value? I am not sure what number of patches separates an "production error" from a legitimate, conscientious variation; ST3-103 "White sun" version seems to fetch a slightly higher premium, yet the STS-36 "Thout" error version does not command much of a bump. |
mach3valkyrie
Member Posts: 722
From: Albany, Oregon
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 11-22-2013 06:49 PM
The Willabee & Ward presentation pages for the space program used AB Emblem patches and I recently bought a 51-L of theirs that had the missing star. I think there's quite a few of these missing star patches out there. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-22-2013 09:51 PM
The W&W sets use both versions, but I will say that the distribution among those sets, based on a sample from eBay current and recent pasty, indicates it's a higher percentage than the loose ones on eBay. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-01-2014 06:51 PM
There's quite a bit of variation in the border coloration of the STS-51L patches. The left-most patch in this scan is the one "hybrid" from the recent eBay auction, the middle is another hybrid patch and the right is a typical souvenir version. - Left: Grey-blue border on main body, grey-blue tab
- Middle: Light gray border on main body, gray-blue tab
- Right: Dark Gray both (And note the straight line stitch to affix the tab, this is the only example I've seen using a non-zig-zag stitch)
AB Emblem is usually pretty consistent on colors over time, but this patch is a bit notorious, at least in my mind, as being particularly dynamic in color. (Another one that has quite a bit of variation is their Apollo 17 patch, which has varying shades of light blue bordering.) |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-11-2014 11:44 PM
I'm also suspecting that the "missing star" version is more than a simple production error. An eBay seller listed an STS-51L patch with the missing star this week. I compared his patch to an example I own and they appear to be chronologically distinct versions. The version I have has a glossy coated back with a different tab style (dark twill with a thin peelable covering). The front uses the very dark gray thread for edge embroidery and details. The recent eBay example appears appears to be a typical STS-51L souvenir version in almost all respects: light grey thread with "standard" plastic backing. The stars are also embroidered slightly different. STS-51L missing star example from eBay:  
Glossy back missing star version compared to regular STS-51L (side by side scans):  
If it were a mere production error, I would expect every example to be virtually identical during the run that produced the error, but I don't find that to be the case, they were produced in different batches using different techniques for embroidery and backing materials as well as different color thread. |
Cozmosis22
Member Posts: 1058
From: Texas * Earth
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted 11-19-2014 11:56 PM
What's with this patch with the shiny silver thread interlaced in the comet but no lower tab attached? Early production or a defect? Looking at the back it doesn't appear as though there was ever a McAuliffe ~ Jarvis addition there.Editor's note: Threads merged. |
Liembo
Member Posts: 693
From: Bothell, WA
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 11-20-2014 12:06 AM
I've seen a lot of tabless patches that bear no sign of ever having a patch attached, too. A patch with a removed tab that was sewn on usually have visible stitch "scars" along the border, or in some cases, like Swissartex, signs of where the tab was heat-sealed on... not sure what to make of them, either. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 45488
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-20-2014 04:10 AM
As noted above, the STS-51L patch was designed after Christa McAuliffe was added to the crew, so it seems unlikely that patches would have been (purposely) distributed without the tab. As others have suggested, it may be that some number of incomplete patches were released as essentially scrap patches (we know that AB Emblem has done this in the past with at least one dealer) and have since made their way onto eBay and the collector market. |
garyd2831
Member Posts: 641
From: Syracuse, New York, USA
Registered: Oct 2009
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posted 02-09-2015 11:22 AM
I found this AB Emblem variant 51L patch with its original packaging. I'm not sure what year the packaging would reflect. At first, it would have appeared to have a white tab, but in actuality it is just the white thread. Also the patch lacks the grey edging under the yellow/gold shuttle trailing.   |
Kevin T. Randall
Member Posts: 1262
From: Chesham, Bucks UK
Registered: Dec 2008
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posted 02-09-2015 03:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by garyd2831:
I'm not sure what year the packaging would reflect.
This type 5 KSC packet card header was first introduced around early 1998 and was used through to about the end of 2002, beginning of 2003. It wasn't replaced with type 6 until 2005. Type 6 is the current one used. |
Tom
Member Posts: 1626
From: New York
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-04-2015 06:33 PM
After all these years, I've noticed that the 51L crew patch contains 9 stars (or parts of stars) along with 9 stripes.Do you think that was just a coincidence for OV-099? |
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