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Author
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Topic: Gemini quality reproductions
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lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 02-22-2006 03:43 PM
   
I'm sure there's a lot of us that consider a good reproduction of a patch better than a hole in one's collection. In my case, I get frustrated by those Gemini patches that don't follow the design worn by the astronauts. A number of years ago, there was this guy Bill Grush (whatever happened to him and Star Realm?) who offered faithful Gemini patches: Gemini 7 and 10 without names, Gemini 9 with names in tab underneath. I don't come across them on eBay. So, I was thinking, I'm sure there's enough expertise around here to come up with good pics of the originals, select a manufacturer that can reproduce them accurately so that a large group of collectors can 'complete' their collection. It would require an investment to have them produced, but I am confident we could pool resources here. Any comments? |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 578
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 02-22-2006 04:41 PM
I want to be one of the group. I would like to have these patches! Here are my artworks of Gemini 7, 8 and 10 with names on tag. Good idea! |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-22-2006 06:32 PM
I couldn't agree more! Years ago when I first moved to Titusville, I met a guy at my daughters school. (We were both picking up our kids) He had a side business in patches and I purchased quality Gemini patches from him. (He even had the Molly Brown patch that I had seen John Young wear.)Sadly our kids have grown and we lost touch. If we find a manufacturer and can secure enough orders I'll bet we could all have these in our collections. Let's see what others think. |
Ben
Member Posts: 1896
From: Cape Canaveral, FL
Registered: May 2000
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posted 02-22-2006 06:35 PM
This would be a nice idea if and only if the patches contained a hallmark of some kind to note that they are replicas. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 02-22-2006 09:20 PM
Eagle One which I think is now Cargo Bay Embles did the Gemini patches back in the 90's. The patches were all done in a 4 inch style. They always did great patches. I also used to order from Star Realm and have not heard fom them in a long time. |
Space Emblem Art
Member Posts: 194
From: Citrus Heights, CA - USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 02-22-2006 10:45 PM
In what I thought was the 1980s I purchased a set of 4 inch replica of the Gemini patches from Eagle One Aerospace in Virginia, USA. It included the Molly Brown patch and all the rest. The Gemini 7 (without crew names), 8 & 12 weren't quite 4 inches but a bit bigger than the small gift set size. They are really cool. I've got my set framed. Eagle One also had a set of 4 inch Mercury patches for the 6 flights. While there weren't any actual Mercury crew patches they simulated the area of the spacecraft where the spacecraft name was, round with black border and inner area with the names of the spacecraft as they appeared on the Mercury craft - only difference was that the '7' on Aurora 7 was in red, not blue. I'd be interested in hearing of pricing for any new 4 inch authentic Gemini patch series which may come about. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42983
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-23-2006 01:51 PM
To do it right would also mean that the per patch cost would be higher than the usual $3 to $5, in part because the runs would likely be low quantities. We would need "camera ready" artwork, color details and stitching instructions. Does anyone have this for at least one patch that could be used to generate a quote? I would tend to favor offering them only as a set (all 9 patches including Molly Brown) and not individually. Also, we would likely want to take advance orders. Comments? |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 02-23-2006 02:12 PM
I guess we should start with the NASA photo of the original patches. Does anyone have a high resolution version of this? Or do we have scans and measurements of the authentic patches individually? I seem to remember that Don Willis (of Lunar Legacies) had original Gemini patches. Should we try and contact him? |
Space Emblem Art
Member Posts: 194
From: Citrus Heights, CA - USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 02-23-2006 02:40 PM
I don't know who may be considered to make the patches but since 1999 I've used AB Emblem to make patches from my space emblem designs. They have a minimum order of 44 pieces. It had been 50 until perhaps 2 yrs. ago when it became 44. Not knowing how many of us might ultimately be interested in participating, this 44 minimum could be too many or too few. I believe the highest price was about $4.75 (U.S) per patch on one of the orders plus a flat shipping price of $10 for the order.If anyone's interested to see AB's quality on some custom work you can check some samples of patches I've had made on my website: spaceemblemart.com. (This is not a plug but offered as a resource). Click the Custom patches button & then the image for a close up. You can compare the patch samples against my original designs in "Moonstar Missions" to see how closely AB's followed my designs. If it's decided they're not up to par, that's OK, I just offer this for a sense of the quality they've provided me. Also, would there be any interest in including a "what if" patch for Gemini 4? I designed a "what if" patch for this mission using their proposed name (nixed by NASA) of American Eagle. The poor guys of G - 4 were caught in the vacuum of not being able to name their craft and not yet having entered the crew emblem era yet. If interested, I can try to bring my design to view or e-mail a copy to someone with the technical savy to get it on screen. Just let me know. |
justin13
Member Posts: 50
From: Richmond, VA, U.S.A.
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 02-23-2006 03:36 PM
I'm in!I like the idea of just doing the whole set of Gemini patches (at least the ones that were actually used). In my mind, we'd really need to address the poor repros of Gemini's 6, 7, 9, 10 and 12. I've found a few decent ones, but still have holes in my collection. Gene Dorr's site is a great resource for images of all the patches actually used on Gemini, and dimensions listed for some of them, but in most cases, it seems he's measured other reproductions. With all the information there, perhaps accurate dimensions could be deduced. If AB will do a run of 44 of each patch, it shouldn't be tough to get them all paid for, whether they're sold in complete sets or not. |
OV-105
Member Posts: 816
From: Ridgecrest, CA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 02-23-2006 05:52 PM
Which Gemini 6 patch would be made or will both be made (GTA 6 and Gemini 6)? |
KSCartist
Member Posts: 2896
From: Titusville, FL USA
Registered: Feb 2005
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posted 02-23-2006 06:44 PM
For Gemini 6 (and all the others) we should try to find images of the crews wearing their patch. If I remember Gemini crew patches were on the average of 3 1/2" wide (for circular) Gemini 11 was 3 1/2" across the bottom and 4" high.My only concern with AB is we would have to make sure they understood that we didn't want their standard Gemini work in color, stitching, etc. But if they can create "custom" patches to our specs then we'd be okay. |
kyra
Member Posts: 583
From: Louisville CO US
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 02-23-2006 07:39 PM
I found the Gemini-3 Molly Brown and Gemini 10 in the 4" variety from Cargo Bay emblems in the early 90's, and I just feel bad I didn't get them all, but in those days I was on an allowance! I wouldn't blink at a $80 set nowadays, especially if they were reproductions as close as could be made of what flew on the suits. A small hallmark would be fine.Were there any sketches ever made by the crew of Gemini 4 before they were told no? What did the Fliteline medallion look like? Obviously the American Eagle should be incorporated in some way. I'm just really happy the subject is being brought up. The souvenir versions, well are just that. Fine for a youngster getting one from the KSC/JSC gift shop, but not for a framed photo. Make 50 of each and they would sell quick! |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-23-2006 07:46 PM
I think the idea of making these Gemini patches is great. Count me in!If one is to go with the Molly Brown patch, would it be the style that John Young had made (and can be seen wearing in some of his Shuttle era lithos)? Or would it be the other style occaisonally seen? Since GT-3 never had a patch at the time of the flight, would it make sense to also produce a patch for GT-4? Granted, the common consensus is that GT-4's patch was the American Flag. But it might be good to come up with a design that more closely represents what a patch might look like. Perhaps a contest here on CS to design a suitable patch...then we vote on it. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42983
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-23-2006 07:59 PM
Personally*, my interest would be to create a set of replicas and by definition that means only designs chosen by the crew or individual astronauts themselves. GT-3 didn't have a patch but the fact that a design (see bottom of linked page) later emerged with the endorsement of the only living crew member is enough for me to suggest its inclusion. As for GT-4's Fliteline medallion, the primary issue I see with its adaptation is the lack of color information. Of course we could agree upon a palette, but then it really wouldn't be an accurate replica and fall back into the category of a souvenir. I think it might be better to acknowledge their lack of a patch with our lack of their inclusion. * These are my personal thoughts and should not be read as a veto. If the popular consensus is to go a different direction, I would support that, too. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 02-23-2006 08:51 PM
My main interest is in the patches that flew on the spacesuits. In the case of Molly Brown, we should go for the oldest version John Young was seen wearing. In the case of different versions per crewmember, the design most seen should be selected... I know I may now sound like a civil servant, but that's not my intention...  As for AB Emblem; I like their quality. We might however get into a weird situation by asking them to produce patches that will compete with their other Gemini patches already available. Or are they so business-like that this won't be an issue? |
Space Emblem Art
Member Posts: 194
From: Citrus Heights, CA - USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 02-24-2006 10:11 AM
While having posed the question of a "what if" Gemini 4 patch, perhaps it would be better to stick to the original idea of this discussion, with just replicating the "flown" Gemini patches. Afterall G-4 really did have a patch - if I recall correctly, they were the first U. S. crew to wear the American Flag on their space suits, so they've got that distinction. A "what if" design could be saved for another time. |
GoesTo11
Member Posts: 1309
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 02-24-2006 03:21 PM
I'm a daily viewer (though infrequent poster), and I'd definitely be on board with a quality set of Gemini repros. I've long been fascinated by space emblems for their historical significance and aesthetic appeal, but my budget simply would not support the pursuit of vintage patches (yet.) Like others here, I've been frustrated by the lack of accurate Gemini repro patches on the market today, and I would definitely spend $50-$100 for a quality set. I've got to believe there's enough interest out there to justify a limited production run if someone is willing to "quarterback" such a deal.I also agree with those who feel that we should probably leave GT-4 alone, at least for now. I don't think we need to conjure up an emblem without the input or approval of, say, Jim McDivitt just to fill a perceived "hole" in the set. BTW, it would be nice to produce an accurate Gemini-era NASA meatball repro for the set, since none seem to be out there. Anyway, if we're serious, I'm all in! |
edorr
Member Posts: 64
From: Chelmsford, MA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 02-24-2006 03:49 PM
I think this is a great idea. I'd especially like a decent Gemini X patch. Count me in for a set.Regarding the patch measurements on my site: most of the patches pictured on my site are ones that I own. For every patch that I own I've provided measurements. A few generous individuals have sent me images of patches from their own collections, and in those cases I've credited the contributor in the caption, but since no measurements were provided I don't have any to include. (If anyone wants to provide precise measurements, I'd be happy to add them.) I do have a high-resolution scan of the Gemini patches photo, NASA Photo ID 66-HC-1855. I also have higher res versions of most of the patch images on my site, including the Gemini "flown" patches. I'd be happy to provide these to the project. (By the way, there's a photo of John Young and the Apollo 10 crew prior to their flight, in which Young is wearing a Molly Brown patch. It's the earliest photo of that patch I'm aware of.) For this to move forward, I think we need to identify a coordinator. So far it sounds like Robert and Luc are the prime movers. (I'd love to be involved, but I don't have the time to commit.) Anybody else want to step up to the plate? |
mjanovec
Member Posts: 3811
From: Midwest, USA
Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 02-24-2006 04:40 PM
Thinking about it further, I do agree that this might not be the time or place for a "what-if" Gemini 4 patch. Perhaps that could be tackled at a later time, if there is interest. If Gemini 4 were to be included, perhaps the run could contain an American flag of the same dimensions as the ones the crew wore.Just as critical as the patch design should be the patch colors. Colors should be kept as true to the originals as possible, such as the orange color in the Gemini XII patch. If quality control is good and a nice set of patches can be made, I'd be more than happy to purchase a couple of sets...one for wearing and another for collecting. I would think there is more than enough of a market for 50-100 sets of patches, perhaps more. I could see 50 sets being sold to CS members alone. Which brings up an important point...would people want to do a limited run (to make them collectable)...or an unlimited run produced in sets of 50-100, whenever demand is high enough to justify a new batch? That's probably a question that Robert might best answer, if he would be a main dealer for these patches. Perhaps a good hallmark would be the letters "CS" hidden on every patch. |
Rick Mulheirn
Member Posts: 4167
From: England
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 02-24-2006 06:12 PM
Somebody want to hazard an educated guesstimate at what such a set would retail for? |
Bill Hunt
Member Posts: 399
From: Irvine, CA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-24-2006 07:42 PM
This IS a great idea, and I'd certainly be interested in a set as well. My recommendation would be to try to replicate the original flight patches as closely as possible - probably difficult with modern embroidery machines, but not impossible. Hallmarks would clearly be wise as well, to identify them as replicas for collectors. |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 304
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 02-25-2006 06:41 AM
I am interested to buy a set also. I think CS as a hallmark is a good idea.
I think to ask AB is a good idea also. If there is a need I can ask them and check whether they are willing to agree on producing a parallel Gemini patch series following the needs and wishes of CS collectors.Please advise. Did anyone know something about copyright? Are there restrictions? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42983
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 02-25-2006 10:53 AM
I have begun discussions with AB Emblem as well as two other patch manufacturers regarding this proposed project. Before we can move forward, we need to gather and agree upon the data about each patch, i.e. sizes, colors, features*, version, etc. (* e.g. for Gemini 5, do we want to attempt having a piece of fabric sewn over the "8 Days or Bust"?) For those who have flown or original patches, it would be very helpful if you could scan them at high resolution (at least 200% at 300 dpi). |
Harald Kraenzel
Member Posts: 304
From: Dinslaken,Germany
Registered: Nov 2005
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posted 02-25-2006 01:11 PM
There is an article in Spaceflight (a magazine of the British Interplanetary Society in Great Britain) dated May 1996 and named "The First US Astronaut Crew Patches". This could be a further base for getting the data together. I can provide a scan of this 2 side article. |
keith.wilson
Member Posts: 87
From: Callander, Stirling, Scotland
Registered: Jun 2002
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posted 02-25-2006 03:29 PM
Harald - I wrote the 'Spaceflight' article you mentioned. The Gemini patches are my favourite ones - I guess because they were the first! |
GoesTo11
Member Posts: 1309
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 02-27-2006 11:10 AM
Thanks in advance to Robert and others here for making this happen. Please feel free to forward my email add to other members if an advance order is necessary before production. In the meantime, I'll keep an eye on this thread for updates.BTW, I'll defer to the experts here on patch dimensions, colors, etc. Thanks again! |
KAPTEC
Member Posts: 578
From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 02-27-2006 12:17 PM
I have (framed) a patch collection of 4" Gemini patches I got in mid 90's at Cocoa Beach. (Really, Gemini 7 -without names- is smaller, but the 9 has a tag with them, and the 10 in unnamed). |
astroborg
Member Posts: 200
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 02-27-2006 12:51 PM
Have any of you seen the book "LIFE in Space" that came out around 1983-4 timeframe? It had some nice color shots of the embroidered Gemini patches.I wonder who CargoBay/EagleOne used back in the '90s to make the set Mary Wagner and her husband marketed? I'm lucky enough to have two sets from her, plus the 4" Mercury patches. (no, I'm not selling!) They really did a nice job on them. |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 861
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 02-27-2006 01:52 PM
I have the Eagle one Gemini set also so I'm not interested in this, but to help you a little here are scans of the original Gemini patches: 1 | 2 | 5 | 4 | 5 The Gemini 9 crew did not wear a patch with names... but the patch is an original. |
Jacques van Oene
Member Posts: 861
From: Houten, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 02-27-2006 02:20 PM
Some other advise from me  My opinion is to make most of the patches 4" like the original artwork or patch if that is available, but I do think that some patches, the Gemini 10 patch for example are 5" and I believe Gemini-5 is also 5" in its original form... 100% embroidery is always the best... but the Gemini 6 and 11 patches are not fully embroidered as you can see on the scans... and I think there are others that do not have fully embroidery... Look close at original photo's or the original NASA artwork, they have used original patches for that for some patches... Gemini 10 and 8. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3386
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 03-01-2006 02:24 AM
I have hi-res scans of all Gemini patches (the NASA photos), so if they are needed let me know. |
heng44
Member Posts: 3386
From: Netherlands
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 03-01-2006 09:49 AM
My NASA photos of the Gemini patches are here. I'll leave them there for a few days, so anyone who needs them can download them. |
nelyubov
Member Posts: 131
From: USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 03-02-2006 06:58 AM
There actually was a Gemini 4 patch designed and made for Jim McDivitt. There is a small museum in Frankenmuth Michigan that displays uniforms, medals and various other items belonging to McDivitt --who of course was from Michigan. In one of the display cases is a one of those original Gemini 4 patches that was intended to be used. I have a very bad blurry photo of it -- it is 3 1/2 inches --white with blue edge, an eagle similar to the apollo 11 eagle and a gemini spacecraft underneath it. Their names are along the top and bottom curveture. I have never seen a reproduction nor any other photos or information about this patch anywhere else. |
sfurtaw
Member Posts: 104
From: Saginaw, MI USA
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted 03-02-2006 08:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by nelyubov:
In one of the display cases is a one of those original Gemini 4 patches that was intended to be used.
Mark, I can't believe as many times as I've been there I never picked up on that patch. I'm hoping to head over to the Museum this weekend. I'll take my camera and ask Stan Bozich (the director) what he knows about the patch. |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 03-02-2006 10:48 AM
Scott - be sure to make several pics from different angles, in as high a resolution as your camera will allow, please! This seems exciting!Now I come to think of it - however did we end up with Gemini patches that hardly looked like the originals? Who designed them? |
edorr
Member Posts: 64
From: Chelmsford, MA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 03-02-2006 10:54 AM
I've massaged some images that may be helpful to this project. First, I took NASA photo 66-HC-1855 (the photo of all the Gemini patches together) and "flattened" it to remove the effect of perspective. This gives a good comparison of the relative sizes of the patches. Second, since the NASA photos of the Gemini 5 patch always seem to use the same sad patch, I tried to tease out what I could out of the photos of Pete Conrad's patch in the Gemini 5 recovery photos: 1 | 2 As you can clearly see in the photos on my Gemini 5 page, Cooper and Conrad had quite different patches. |
edorr
Member Posts: 64
From: Chelmsford, MA
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 03-02-2006 11:19 AM
Here's a tiny little detail that has bothered me quite a lot...Take a close look at the NASA photo of the Gemini 8 patch. The symbology at the bottom of the patch represents "Gemini 8" by using the astrological ")(" symbol for "Gemini", and then the Roman numeral "VIII" for "8". Reproductions seem always to use straight lines "II" for the Gemini symbol rather than the curved ")(" seen on the actual patch. Can we make our special edition Gemini 8 patch with ")(" ? |
astroborg
Member Posts: 200
From: Woodbridge, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-02-2006 11:45 AM
I tried to get a picture of that patch last week, as I visited the Neil Armstrong Museum in Wapakoneta, OH on Saturday, 2/25, and his Gemini VIII suit didn't have any patch on it except the NASA and his name. As I examined it, I couldn't even see where it might have been, by looking for pulled thread holes.Strange - maybe this is not the real thing, and merely a backup suit? |
lucspace
Member Posts: 403
From: Hilversum, The Netherlands
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 03-02-2006 02:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by edorr:
Can we make our special edition Gemini 8 patch with ")(" ?
This is exactly the kind of detail I would like to be correct in the patches this little project should produce! If anyone else has details like this, please post them here! It is my intention to have prototypes made, so we can check for things like this. |
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