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Author
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Topic: NASA T-38 'Talon' training jet scale models
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David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 12-04-2016 10:19 AM
  
So does anyone know more about the STS-3 chase team? Hobby Master say N923NA was one of the (four?) landing chase aircraft, and there are pictures of it flying chase for the STS-3 launch. The front seaters were:
Chase 1: Dick Covey
Chase 2: Charlie Justiz
Chase 3: Guy Gardner
Chase 4: Bryan O'Connor Any ideas on backseaters and who was aboard 923? |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 02-14-2017 01:29 PM
Of interest: Hobby Master 1/72 Air Power Series HA5403
Northrop T-38A Talon "Jackie Cochran"
60-0551, Edward Air Force Base,
California, 1961Jacqueline Jackie Cochran was born into poverty but achieved greatness as she grew up. Jackie began air racing in the late 1930s and in June 1941 she was the first woman to fly a bomber across the Atlantic Ocean. In 1943 was appointed to the General Staff of the USAAF to direct the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP) program. Jackie was the first woman to break the sound barrier, set distance and altitude records and averaged a speed of 844mph while flying Northrop T-38A Talon 60-0551. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 02-23-2017 10:03 AM
Hobby Master 1/72 Air Power Series (HA5401) Pictures of the finished model. 
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David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 02-25-2017 11:52 PM
Not bad, I'll be getting one. The black leading edges look a bit heavy handed though. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 1011
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 03-03-2017 04:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by David C:
So does anyone know more about the STS-3 chase team?
Now here's a coincidence. Some years ago I acquired various flight suits and equipment that once belonged to Bob Gray (TV Chase for STS-3). Included was a framed photo (with caption) of the entire STS-3 Chase Team. |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 03-04-2017 02:08 PM
Wow, thanks. Matching backseaters to pilots is tricky. In their JSC oral histories both Covey and O'Connor claim McNair was aboard their aircraft. O'Connor adds extra details about McNair's use of a 16mm camera. This leads me to think it's possible that Covey misremembered. Unfortunately Jerry Ross makes no mention of his shuttle chase experience in either his book or oral history. Perhaps I'll get a chance to ask him at Spacefest.In the absence of other evidence my best guess is:
1. Covey/ Ross
2. Justiz/ Stanley
3. Gardner/ Gray
4. O'Connor/ McNair |
NeilPearson
Member Posts: 185
From: UK
Registered: May 2013
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posted 03-28-2017 02:23 PM
I've received a copy of this model and I'm pretty happy with it. As David highlighted earlier, the black on the leading edges is a little thick but I think we're all guilty of examining these things from an inch away! When the model is viewed from a sensible distance, it's not particularly noticeable. There were two suggestions that I made to HM which I'm pleased were taken on board: to give the crew blue flight suits and helmets (instead of the usual green ones they supply) and to include a baggage pod. It can be displayed on the stand or with the undercarriage down and there are either open or closed canopy options.  
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cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 03-29-2017 07:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NeilPearson:
...the black on the leading edges is a little thick
Does that mean that the wing is thicker than it should be? If that's the case maybe Hobby Master wanted to stick to metal for the wings instead of using plastic because of the wing's thinness. (They used plastic for the wings of their Mig-23 model.) |
NeilPearson
Member Posts: 185
From: UK
Registered: May 2013
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posted 03-29-2017 11:52 AM
In my opinion the wings are an acceptable thickness considering they are metal and at 1/72 scale. They are comparable to the HM F-5 and F-104 wings in terms of thickness at the leading edge but the black paint makes them appear thicker when viewed close up. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 1011
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 03-29-2017 11:12 PM
Forgive me for being obtuse, but how do we purchase this model? |
Panther494
Member Posts: 578
From: London UK
Registered: Jan 2013
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posted 03-30-2017 03:16 AM
In the US, The Flying Mule has it on pre-order. Expected April delivery. |
NeilPearson
Member Posts: 185
From: UK
Registered: May 2013
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posted 03-30-2017 04:34 AM
And it's 35 years ago today that N923NA accompanied Columbia to land at White Sands! |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52586
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-03-2017 12:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Panther494:
In the US, The Flying Mule has it on pre-order.
As of today (May 3), it is now listed as in stock. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-03-2017 01:18 PM
The Flying Mule shipped my T-38 yesterday (May 2). |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-04-2017 05:47 AM
The Flying Mule website announces a second T-38 model with 1960s livery due November 2017: Hobby Master 1:72 Air Power Series HA5405
Northrop T-38A Talon Diecast Model
NASA, #901, Ellington Field, TX, 1960s |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-04-2017 07:20 AM
That's USAF 63-8181, the Gemini 9 prime crew fatal mishap airplane of 28 February 1966. A good choice I think. |
mode1charlie
Member Posts: 1464
From: Honolulu, HI
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted 05-04-2017 06:22 PM
Seems a bit morbid to me. (But I might get it anyway.) |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-11-2017 07:17 AM
Would you considerer models of shuttle Challenger and Columbia morbid? |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-11-2017 07:34 AM
Looking at the box of the T-38 model, I was wondering how many models with NASA livery could be produced (like Century Wings' SR-71s)?The model differs from the photo illustrating two sides of the box by having the "worm" logo on its tail (the picture has the "meatball"). If you look closely at the six aircraft in the photo, from right to left, the second one has a different nose and blue markings and the third one has the same nose as the second but with the blue livery of the first. The fourth is like the second model. It seems then that there are two different models (leaving the worm/meatball issue aside). So I was wondering how many T-38 models are in NASA's fleet and so how many potential Hobby Master models? This series is a new one: - HA5401 - Columbia chase plane (NASA)
- HA5403 - Jackie Cochran model (USAF)
- HA5405 - See/Bassett model (NASA)
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NeilPearson
Member Posts: 185
From: UK
Registered: May 2013
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posted 05-11-2017 08:58 AM
You may recognise my name from the front of your T-38 box.  The first NASA release, '923' with the worm logo, is a T-38A. During the early 2000's, an upgrade program started (T-38 Propulsion Modernization Program, or PMP) which included replacing the slanted air intakes with straight (vertical) ones for better take-off performance. They've also received a weather radar as part of an avionics upgrade, which can be identified by the different nose which lacks the pitot probe. My photos date back to 2006 when the fleet was in a mixed state of upgrades, hence some have different noses, intakes, nozzles and blue-line paint schemes. Hobbymaster will be releasing a 'modern' T-38N, with the latest modifications and meatball tail, in due course. |
cspg
Member Posts: 6371
From: Geneva, Switzerland
Registered: May 2006
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posted 05-11-2017 09:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NeilPearson:
You may recognise my name from the front of your T-38 box.
A detail that I've missed! |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 1011
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 05-11-2017 05:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Panther494:
In the US, The Flying Mule has it.
Thank you for your assistance! I just ordered the model today and it's going to make a fantastic display with Bob Gray's STS-3 Chase flight suit. |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-11-2017 06:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cspg:
So I was wondering how many T-38 models are in NASA's fleet and so how many potential Hobby Master models?
The fleet size has varied over the years. During Apollo the MSC fleet peaked at around 29 airframes (some of which were accident replacements). Of course other NASA centers had some T-38s. They started out with block 50 T-38As, and went up to block 85 by the end of ASTP. Later, as Neil mentioned, many of these got a glass cockpit and weather radar — and a few years after that the intake/nozzle upgrade to full T-38N standard. |
Greggy_D
Member Posts: 1011
From: Michigan
Registered: Jul 2006
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posted 05-12-2017 01:08 PM
I asked Jerry Ross on Facebook yesterday about the STS-3 chase crew pairings. He left two responses: I flew with Guy Gardner. I think Ron McNair flew with Dick Covey. Not sure if Bob flew with Bryan O.Rats! Not sure if Bob flew with Bryan or Charlie. They (Pete and Bob) switched around quite a bit. |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-12-2017 01:47 PM
Thanks for that, looks like my guess was well off. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1391
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 05-22-2017 07:48 PM
I received this very nice model this week. Great detail and display options. The baggage pod was a great addition but if I hadn't read about it here I might have missed it. It is in a plastic bag taped to the packaging along with the gear doors and a small square cover for the display stand hole should you choose not to use the stand. For those who have the connections to offer suggestions, I think getting the flight suit/ helmet colors right on the See/Bassett aircraft would be a big plus. |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-23-2017 01:44 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 328KF:
I think getting the flight suit/ helmet colors right on the See/Bassett aircraft would be a big plus.
They are going to be '60s blue suits and white helmets which will look better. Not sure if See and Bassett had customised helmets like some other astronauts.The blue suits and helmets with this release are pretty close, but really don't look good because the pilot figures themselves are so poor. |
328KF
Member Posts: 1391
From:
Registered: Apr 2008
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posted 05-23-2017 10:57 AM
That's great. Thanks for the news. Gene Cernan, in writing about the St Louis accident flight in his book, described: "The white helmets of See and Bassett appeared in their canopy like a pair of ping pong balls in a clear plastic tube." |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-23-2017 12:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 328KF:
"The white helmets of See and Bassett appeared in their canopy like a pair of ping pong balls in a clear plastic tube."
Thanks, good enough for me. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52586
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 05-23-2017 12:44 PM
Can the current model be displayed without the pilots (i.e. are the pilots removable)? |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 05-23-2017 12:58 PM
Yes it can. |
GoesTo11
Member Posts: 1374
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 05-24-2017 02:18 PM
Cernan's account of the St. Louis crash also mentions that See and Bassett's aircraft was equipped with the travel pod carrying all four astronauts' clothing and personal effects...so the HM model is accurate in that respect as well. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52586
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-29-2017 12:24 PM
Hobby Master pre-production photos of NASA 901 (HA5405, October 2017): 
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cycleroadie
Member Posts: 454
From: Apalachin, NY USA
Registered: May 2011
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posted 10-17-2017 06:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Hobby Master pre-production photos of NASA 901
These are showing up in the states, mine just shipped. |
Jacky1mcc
New Member Posts: 2
From: Friendswood, TX
Registered: Jul 2011
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posted 02-19-2018 04:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by David C:
Any ideas on backseaters and who was aboard 923?
From 1979 to 1983 I worked for the NASA/JSC TV contractor, Taft Broadcasting. My primary duty was to support the TV camera and tranmission systems in the two photo T-38 chase planes 923 and 901. Pete Stanley was the primary NASA photographer in 923 and Bob Gray was the backup in 901. 923 crew was Covey/Stanley and the 901 crew was Justiz/Gray. The TV chase planes would leave JSC 1 to 2 days before launch and cover launch then land at Cape Canaveral AFB to refuel then head cross country to Edwards AFB for the landing. For STS-3 we had to move Chase Plane and helicopter TV support from Edwards AFB to White Sands Missle Range just days before the scheduled landing because of water standing on the lakebed at Edwards. Then the landing at White Sands was delayed because of a major sand storm. I treasure my time on that job. |
David C
Member Posts: 1450
From: Lausanne
Registered: Apr 2012
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posted 02-19-2018 09:18 PM
Thanks for that, I can stop my wildly inaccurate guessing game. |
NeilPearson
Member Posts: 185
From: UK
Registered: May 2013
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posted 10-13-2023 03:33 AM
Due for release in March 2024, Hobby Master are releasing another NASA T-38 diecast model in 1/72 scale. This one will be a modern T-38N (the description is going to be changed from T-38C) in the current livery with the Meatball on the tail. |
Philip
Member Posts: 6259
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 10-18-2023 05:14 AM
In my opinion, nothing better than a real 1960s scale model by Topping. |
GoesTo11
Member Posts: 1374
From: Denver, CO
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 11-07-2023 10:48 PM
No argument here. Where do I get one of those for $89.95?  Seriously though... if HM produces another NASA T-38, my choice would be #821 circa mid '70s, with the yellow tail band and the navy blue & gold cheat stripes, which were apparently unique to that aircraft. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 52586
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-08-2023 12:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NeilPearson:
...in the current livery with the Meatball on the tail.
I don't know if it has been applied to an aircraft yet or is only a proposal, but the current livery may have just been updated or is about to change.As part of this week's presentation honoring Richard Danne, the design director for the "worm," NASA's creative director David Rager displayed sample pages from the agency's updated Graphic Standards Manual reflecting the dual use of the "meatball" and "worm." Included was what appears to be the new T-38 livery:  
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