When NASA's mighty Saturn V rocket launched the historic Apollo 11 mission to land the first men on the moon in 1969, the five colossal engines that powered the booster's first stage dropped into the Atlantic Ocean, sank, and were lost forever.
Lost, that is, until now.
A private expedition financed by Amazon.com founder and billionaire Jeff Bezos has discovered the five F-1 rocket engines that were used to launch Apollo 11 into space on July 16, 1969. The same team is now drawing up plans to retrieve one or more of the engines so they can be publicly displayed.
Glint Member
Posts: 1040 From: New Windsor, Maryland USA Registered: Jan 2004
posted 03-28-2012 04:20 PM
Hey, that's cool! I guess they checked the serial numbers and everything?
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-28-2012 05:09 PM
Bezos has said only that his team conducted "state-of-the-art deep sea sonar" — there was no mention of submersibles to image the engines on the ocean floor. So for now the best they can probably resolve is a roughly engine- or engine cluster-sized mound.
Presumably, the Apollo 11 identification is based on the historic records of where NASA predicted the S-IC to impact the ocean, along with other data points (such as where the German ship was when a fragment from the first stage fell on its deck).
posted 03-28-2012 05:43 PM
Cool. So, when these engines are retrieved they will be immediately turned over to NASA or face the wrath of the current Justice Department?
Jay Chladek Member
Posts: 2272 From: Bellevue, NE, USA Registered: Aug 2007
posted 03-28-2012 06:17 PM
I admit I am a little skeptical. Even Curt Newport didn't go by his sonar data alone as he had to send an ROV down to scout out the targets visually (and got lucky when the first target happened to be LB7). Plus, I would say before any recovery attempt is mounted, there should at least be some imagery taken to see what condition these "engines" (provided it isn't a false target) are in and if they are still even recognizable as rocket engines.
Bezos may have done that already of course as he seems to like playing his cards pretty close to his chest.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-28-2012 06:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by Cozmosis22: So, when these engines are retrieved they will be immediately turned over to NASA...
Yes. Unless another arrangement is negotiated ahead of time, the engines belong to NASA, which Bezos acknowledged.
Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-28-2012 06:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jay Chladek: Even Curt Newport didn't go by his sonar data alone...
Newport spoke to MSNBC's Alan Boyle about this project.
Curt Newport, the underwater salvage expert who orchestrated the raising of Liberty Bell 7, said bringing up the engines would pose significant challenges. He assumes that the engines are among other pieces of debris from the Saturn 5's first stage that are spread across the sea floor. "The information I found suggested that [the stage] broke up due to aerodynamic forces before it hit the water," he told me.
Verifying that the engines are from Apollo 11 rather than a different Apollo mission would require checking parts numbers against NASA's database, he said. And bringing up the engines would not be a trivial task.
"If they're intact, they're like nine tons each," Newport told me. "That is not going to be easy to bring to the surface."
David Carey Member
Posts: 782 From: Registered: Mar 2009
posted 03-28-2012 07:59 PM
A neat effort - I hope for a great recovery.
The LA Times story (at least originally) had this unfortunate line:
Well, for Amazon.com founder and CEO Jeff Bezos -- worth $18.4 billion according to Forbes -- it’s about tracking down old space shuttle parts.
APG85 Member
Posts: 306 From: Registered: Jan 2008
posted 03-28-2012 08:50 PM
This is pretty neat stuff no matter what. Even if it doesn't work out, the prospect of seeing those engines lifted from the ocean floor will capture a lot of peoples interest which is always a good thing...
Spaceguy5 Member
Posts: 427 From: Pampa, TX, US Registered: May 2011
posted 03-28-2012 09:21 PM
quote:Originally posted by David Carey: The LA Times story (at least originally) had this unfortunate line...
Didn't you know? Every craft that flies into space is a Space Shuttle--or more correctly, a "shuttle." I thought this was common knowledge considering that almost everyone I know or have seen does it.
*Edit* Funny, they literally just fixed it.
Gilbert Member
Posts: 1328 From: Carrollton, GA USA Registered: Jan 2003
posted 03-29-2012 07:21 AM
Hopefully this endeavor will generate lots of positive publicity and maybe rekindle some interest in manned space exploration. We can hope.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
A dot-com billionaire's announcement that he had not only located the engines that launched the first manned moon landing mission but was also planning to recover at least one of them from the ocean floor came as just as much a surprise to NASA as it did to the public.
"We read Mr. Bezos's blog post with the same excitement as I am sure others have today," Robert Jacobs, NASA's deputy associate administrator for communications, wrote on Wednesday (March 28) in an e-mail to journalists. "We have not had any formal contact with Mr. Bezos about the Apollo engines but we look forward to hearing more from his team and the recovery expedition."
dabolton Member
Posts: 419 From: Seneca, IL, US Registered: Jan 2009
posted 03-29-2012 12:13 PM
Is there a possibility that the engines are still attached to one another in a cluster? Or is the expectation that they would have separated upon ocean impact?
posted 03-29-2012 01:05 PM
I would be a little skeptical until there is visual confirmation. The engines might not be from Apollo 11, really any flight would be fine, or they might not be engines at all.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-29-2012 04:11 PM
Apollo 11 or not, assume Bezos succeeds in raising one or more engines.
Do you restore them (as needed) to appear as they did before they sank (as best as possible, as was done with Liberty Bell 7) or do you stabilize any corrosion but strive to keep the engine looking as it did when it was on the ocean floor?
Is there any value of displaying an engine in its "as is" state — whatever condition that may be?
Rob Joyner Member
Posts: 1308 From: GA, USA Registered: Jan 2004
posted 03-29-2012 05:37 PM
If two can be raised I think one should be kept the way it looks now, after dealing with the corrosion only, and the other restored. It would make a great side by side 'before and after' display.
If only one can be raised I'd opt for just dealing with the corrosion, and then display it along side KSC's Saturn V.
SpaceAholic Member
Posts: 4437 From: Sierra Vista, Arizona Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-29-2012 07:20 PM
The sinking of LB7 was never intended and constitutes an important part of its history (one arguably which overtakes the significance of the flight itself).
MrSpace86 Member
Posts: 1618 From: Gardner, KS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
posted 03-30-2012 12:06 AM
Full restoration. If not, what's the point of even bringing them up?
KA9Q New Member
Posts: 3 From: San Diego, CA Registered: Mar 2012
posted 03-30-2012 05:27 AM
What is the law here regarding ownership of these objects? It seems pretty obvious to me that NASA deliberately abandoned the spent S-IC stages, making no attempt to recover them, so they really ought to belong to whoever wants to spend the time and money to locate and recover them.
That said, I think it would be wonderful if they'd be donated to a museum so that the greatest number of people can see them. I certainly don't mind Bezos getting full credit for his efforts.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-30-2012 08:09 AM
quote:Originally posted by KA9Q: What is the law here regarding ownership of these objects?
To quote Jeff Bezos:
Though they've been on the ocean floor for a long time, the engines remain the property of NASA. If we are able to recover one of these F-1 engines that started mankind on its first journey to another heavenly body, I imagine that NASA would decide to make it available to the Smithsonian for all to see. If we're able to raise more than one engine, I've asked NASA if they would consider making it available to the excellent Museum of Flight here in Seattle.
And to quote NASA deputy associate administrator for communications, Bob Jacobs:
The rules regarding NASA property in the ocean are the same as those that govern sunken ships and other government property, including our hardware on the moon and other celestial bodies. As Mr. Bezos points out in his blog, the federal government retains ownership until the property is properly disposed. However, we do not see that as any impediment to the recovery efforts of the Apollo engines.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
NASA's chief hopes that Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has "all the luck in the world" recovering one or more of the engines that launched the first manned moon landing mission from where the dot-com billionaire recently discovered them on the ocean floor.
"I would like to thank Jeff Bezos for his communication with NASA informing us of his historic find," said Charles Bolden, NASA Administrator, in a statement issued Friday (March 30). "I salute him and his entire team on this bold venture."
Long thought to be lost on the ocean floor, the massive engines that launched astronauts to the moon more than 40 years ago have been recovered by a private expedition led by the founder of Amazon.com.
"We found so much," said Jeff Bezos, the online retailer's CEO, in an update posted Wednesday (March 20) on the Bezos Expeditions website. "We have seen an underwater wonderland – an incredible sculpture garden of twisted F-1 engines that tells the story of a fiery and violent end, one that serves testament to the Apollo program."
p51 Member
Posts: 1642 From: Olympia, WA Registered: Sep 2011
posted 03-20-2013 10:17 AM
So good to see the engines coming to the surface! Regardless where they go, I'm sure the public will get to see them somewhere...
quote:Originally posted by Robert Pearlman: And to quote NASA deputy associate administrator for communications, Bob Jacobs:
The rules regarding NASA property in the ocean are the same as those that govern sunken ships and other government property, including our hardware on the moon and other celestial bodies. As Mr. Bezos points out in his blog, the federal government retains ownership until the property is properly disposed. However, we do not see that as any impediment to the recovery efforts of the Apollo engines.
This is just the same as the Navy laying claim to ALL their aircraft and airships, wherever they are or how long they've been sitting somewhere abandoned. The Army and USAF are generally okay with someone recovering, say, a B-17 or P-40 from a swamp or lakebed, then doing whatever they want with it. With the Navy, if you recover it, you just spent the time and money to recover it for them, because they will be coming to get it even if they have no interest in it.
apolloprojeckt Member
Posts: 1447 From: Arnhem, Netherlands Registered: Feb 2009
posted 03-20-2013 10:17 AM
Great news, there must be laying plenty more.
Jurg Bolli Member
Posts: 977 From: Albuquerque, NM Registered: Nov 2000
posted 03-20-2013 11:12 AM
This is great!
Greggy_D Member
Posts: 977 From: Michigan Registered: Jul 2006
posted 03-20-2013 11:16 AM
I find this absolutely fascinating!
garymilgrom Member
Posts: 1966 From: Atlanta, GA Registered: Feb 2007
posted 03-20-2013 12:31 PM
Wow!
GACspaceguy Member
Posts: 2474 From: Guyton, GA Registered: Jan 2006
posted 03-20-2013 02:27 PM
I wonder how long before they get to go on display? Traveling road show like Liberty Bell 7 would be cool.
mikepf Member
Posts: 441 From: San Jose, California, USA Registered: Mar 2002
posted 03-20-2013 02:50 PM
Can I order one on Amazon?
YankeeClipper Member
Posts: 617 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Mar 2011
posted 03-20-2013 04:27 PM
Sure, would you like it gift-wrapped and for next day delivery?
arjuna unregistered
posted 03-20-2013 04:29 PM
Steve Jurvetson has posted some great pics here.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-20-2013 04:58 PM
The same photographs are presented in our gallery (click on each to enlarge).
The other shots are, I believe, stills from the video presented with the gallery and embedded above.
dtemple Member
Posts: 729 From: Longview, Texas, USA Registered: Apr 2000
posted 03-20-2013 06:17 PM
The article stated the identities of the recovered F-1 engines may not be known with certainty. What are the possibilities considering the location where they were found?
garyd2831 Member
Posts: 640 From: Syracuse, New York, USA Registered: Oct 2009
posted 03-20-2013 06:44 PM
Imagine if you were on a boat or ship out in the Atlantic when these stages came crashing down? That would be some cool footage to see pending it didn't land up on you.
Headshot Member
Posts: 864 From: Vancouver, WA, USA Registered: Feb 2012
posted 03-20-2013 06:50 PM
I see that Jeff Bezos and his team have recovered major components of two Saturn V F-1 engine from the ocean floor. Although he is uncertain from which mission they come, it is something to applaud.
My question is: How can NASA still claim legal ownership of these engines?
NASA:
Intentionally discarded them from the main vehicle during flight.
Essentially abandoned them thereafter. They made no attempts to locate or recover them in the 40+ intervening years.
Editor's note: Threads merged.
dtemple Member
Posts: 729 From: Longview, Texas, USA Registered: Apr 2000
posted 03-20-2013 06:51 PM
quote:Originally posted by garyd2831: Imagine if you were on a boat or ship out in the Atlantic when these stages came crashing down?
I haven't heard any accounts of people watching Saturn S-IC stages crashing into the Atlantic but I do recall reading in a book by Martin Caidin about the flight of Freedom 7 that people did witness the Redstone booster smashing into the Atlantic. Maybe some day pieces of that rocket will be recovered.
Robert Pearlman Editor
Posts: 42981 From: Houston, TX Registered: Nov 1999
posted 03-20-2013 07:00 PM
quote:Originally posted by Headshot: My question is: How can NASA still claim legal ownership of these engines?
Per the United Nations' Outer Space Treaty, nations retain ownership of their spacecraft and launch vehicles until such time that they explicitly relinquish control, regardless if the vehicle is on Earth, in space or under the ocean.
The same was true for Liberty Bell 7. Curt Newport, Discovery Channel and the Kansas Cosmosphere negotiated terms with NASA that in return for the capsule being recovered, restored and put on public display, that title would be transferred to the Cosmosphere. Bezos, from the start, has accepted the engines are NASA property and hasn't indicated any objection to such.
GACspaceguy Member
Posts: 2474 From: Guyton, GA Registered: Jan 2006
posted 03-21-2013 04:24 AM
So scrapped bolts, washers, pieces in Lucite are not out of the question, as was done during the restoration of Liberty Bell 7?
posted 03-28-2012 03:40 PM
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