posted 12-04-2012 09:57 PM               

I know for sure of some pretty impressive Apollo 11 stuff in a private collection of a pal of mine that I had no idea he collected space stuff at all until I accidentally opened the wrong door in his place looking for the bathroom. My jaw hit the floor when I saw just a peak at a room filled with Apollo stuff. Not even anyone here would know this guy, I don't think his own family knows what he has, will come as one heck of a shock when he passes on someday (don't even think to ask the obvious question on that point, this guy is young).

posted 12-26-2012 02:03 AM               

I have a particular fascination with Lunar Module hardware, especially if flown to the moon. Documents, personal tools and food, PPK items and souvenirs are not part of the spacecraft, so I still wonder, what else from Eagle's ascent stage still exists today?

Background: I started collecting space artifacts three years ago, when I found the COAS from Orion up for auction and my jaw dropped. I have since found LM hardware from Apollo 10, Apollo 15 and Apollo 16.

posted 12-26-2012 11:23 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jurvetson:
...so that leaves Buzz Aldrin and his data clip in a unique position or am I missing something?

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The data clip was never an integral piece of the lunar module, just a piece of equipment stowed there for use by the crew.

I don't see the real difference between the clip and the flight plans (and other items) that it was intended to hold in place, unless it's the fact that the clip is made of metal. But in that respect metal items of equipment used by the crew should also count as "hardware," e.g. the LM spoon stowed for Aldrin's use in the LM at launch.

posted 12-26-2012 07:59 PM               

When I wonder if it's possible to collect something from a historic spacecraft like Eagle, there are some items that I would regard as part of the spacecraft and some that are cargo or personal items of the astronaut.

Perhaps the distinguishing difference would be whether those specific items would have naturally flown with the astronauts on any lunar landing mission, whether or not it was the LM as we know it. (Were they part of the LM design? Was their functionality integral to the spacecraft? Do they need to be attached to the spacecraft to do their job?) So cutlery, pens, flashlights, toothbrushes, and PPKs seem like personal items.

The "spacecraft hardware" had to be detachable to survive, yes? For Apollo in general, I would include the LM COAS, light and data clip for example. If I am not mistaken, all three of these items are functional when attached to the spacecraft, and generally useless if not. The data clip has an attach point to snap onto the LM; its function is to hold the data cards in place during the mission for data transcription. (I believe the COAS and data clip could be used in either the CM or LM, but each spacecraft had differently marked versions, and the flight plan did not call for a transfer of them through the hatch.)

So the ALSRC would also be spacecraft hardware, and a special sub-category perhaps since it's a cargo container that's meant to be brought back. I notice that it is in the National Air and Space Museum's inventory of Apollo 11 artifacts (a fun list, with "Command Module" mixed in there. I see a number of CM items, but did not notice other items from Eagle (as I try to define it) from a quick skim).

posted 12-27-2012 11:57 AM               

My definition is an attempt to be more precise about something that seems intuitively obvious to me. A toothbrush is not a piece of the Eagle spacecraft in my mind, but the COAS is. If so, then how do we make that distinction? I started with your tip: is the functionality integral to the spacecraft? I added some other filters. Perhaps someone else has already gone through this exercise?

And I don't mean to imply any demeaning of the collectability of other items. I'm sure there are many collectors who cherish the historic documents with the writing of the astronauts, or those embedded with lunar surface dust, or flown memorabilia across missions. I'm also sure that many collectors would look right past a small clip of metal as an insignificant trifle (like collecting the rings holding the documents together rather than the documents themselves).

posted 12-27-2012 04:09 PM               

Without the food packages they probably wouldn't have been able to do it either.

Without at least one of their pairs of scissors they wouldn't have been able to open the food packets to eat.

Without pens and pencils they wouldn't have been able to make vital notes and updates to plans etc as the mission progressed.

On the other hand, without a data clip they might well have been able to get by, just as they could have gotten by without a toothbrush or sunglasses. It would have been annoying and awkward for sure but not a show stopper.

posted 12-27-2012 04:56 PM               

Perhaps you could suggest a better definition to help me out here. Do you agree that the ALSRC and COAS are part of the spacecraft? Is there anything else that has come back from Apollo missions that you would regard as part of the lunar module? Perhaps by inclusion, I can better understand what if anything is a grey area and what is clearly a part of Eagle.

Perhaps an analogy might help. Some of the astronauts also drove Corvettes. If someone wanted to collect a vintage car like that, I'm guessing the definition of the "car" would not be a subject of much disagreement. The driver is clearly not part of the car even though the car is useless without the driver. One could argue about the license plate and registration papers (can't drive without them, but it's clearly still a Corvette without them). Same for the gas, sunglasses, and food for the trip. I hope it is obvious that none of these are part of what we think of as the Corvette.

If this analogy helps, it does suggest that if someone wanted to collect the complete vintage car, they might want to see the original specialty tools included (dedicated elements like tire jack and spare tire). I would think those items are part of the car because their function is defined in the context of the car, and they are attached to the car when performing their designed function. And they are typically not used elsewhere.

posted 12-27-2012 07:19 PM               

Having said that, personally I do not consider your clip as being a part of Eagle. If you will, allow me to introduce this analogy. I have a Flight Data File (FDF) from STS-61B. Stripping down the FDF, we are left with two velcro covered plastic covers and three metal rings.

Now what is the purpose of this cover? To keep the FDF organized and together and also, to keep the FDF stationary and readily accessible by the astronauts. The exact same purpose as your Apollo 11 clip. Never in a million years would I consider the above cover a "part" of Atlantis. It's a tool or utility, but not an official shuttle hardware part.

posted 12-27-2012 07:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Hart Sastrowardoyo:
So if a screw holding a panel can be removed without the panel going kaflunky, that screw wouldn't be considered a part of the spacecraft?

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posted 12-27-2012 08:02 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Unless the clip was part of Grumman's design spec for the lunar module, then I would say it was not part of Eagle.

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posted 12-27-2012 08:05 PM               

Are the stowage items important and interesting? Absolutely. In many cases they would even be mission critical. They had to be since every ounce of weight on the LM was carefully evaluated. If it wasn't needed it wasn't included.

posted 12-28-2012 01:48 AM               

Robert/Scott: I like that “design spec” notion as a possible defining element of what it means to be part of the spacecraft. Surely, each part of the spacecraft would be in the design somewhere, and the meaningful subcomponents would have part numbers, even if they had company affiliations other than Grumman, yes? The COAS was an essential component of the LM as it was needed for docking and mounts to the LM window frame — like the data clip mounts to the AOT frame — both have LM fixtures made for their attach points. (Not sure if someone is proposing a definition of the LM that excludes the COAS, but that would be like excluding the rear-view mirror from the Corvette by the analogy I tried to suggest above.)

So, does this design spec definition align with common sense?

posted 12-28-2012 05:03 AM               

Most of the stowage items were NASA JSC parts (SED), including off-the-shelf items approved for flight, such as pens. I don't know of any LM structural items that would have been JSC parts. But some stowage items were Grumman specified, such as urine bags. And the hatch tool is a stowage item made by NAA with a "V36" command module part number.

posted 12-28-2012 07:13 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by chet:
It would seem to me that Steve is simply asking about "parts of Eagle" where the definition of such is anything that was, as of mission commencement, attached or affixed to the spacecraft (as alluded to nicely by "space1").

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posted 12-28-2012 08:50 AM               

[Aldrin] (Voice cracking with nervousness) Houston, we have a problem.

[Duke, Capcom] Copy Eagle. Can you clarify?

[Aldrin] We've just discovered that a piece of the Eagle is missing.

[Capcom] Eagle, can you repeat?

[Aldrin] It's part of the Eagle. I repeat. Part of the Eagle is missing!

[Armstrong to Aldrin] Is this about that darn clip?

[Capcom] Eagle, you've got a bunch of guys about to turn blue down here. What part is missing?

[Aldrin] It's a data file clip. Repeat, data file clip.

[Aldrin to Armstrong] Stand by for abort.

[Armstrong to Aldrin] Are you [garbled] kidding me?

[Capcom] (laughter in background) Eagle, did you say a data file clip?

[Aldrin] Roger that, Houston. I can't find the data file clip.

[30 seconds pass]

[Capcom] (transmission difficult to make out over background laughter) Eagle, the backroom boys tell me we are GO for Landing despite the Data File Clip loss. Repeat GO for landing.

[Armstrong to Aldrin] I told you it wasn't part of the Eagle.

[Aldrin] Wait. Here it is!

posted 12-28-2012 09:50 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
The clip was not attached or affixed to the spacecraft at launch... it was one of four "stowed" per the ASL with the Data Card Kit and available for optional crew deployment.

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posted 12-28-2012 11:31 AM               

Steve, you acquired a rare and wonderful Apollo 11 artifact for your collection. I hope it made for a Merry Christmas.

Anybody who has a flown artifact from Apollo 11 has a great addition to their collection.

posted 12-28-2012 12:48 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by chet:
Steve is simply asking about "parts of Eagle" where the definition of such is anything that was, as of mission commencement, attached or affixed to the spacecraft (as alluded to nicely by "space1").

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And many of those items have SEB prefixes such as the EVA tethers, stowage straps, and the conveyor assembly for lunar equipment.

I thought the discussion was leading toward a definition like: the spacecraft is the collection of equipment designed to function together when attached. It seems to properly categorize the examples discussed above, yes?

As for the clip, I'll post a photo of Aldrin using it in the LM. (and thanks for the transcript too... You can see why he chose to save it over anything else.

posted 12-29-2012 01:45 AM               

But let's move on; I apologize for hijacking this thread into a subtopic of keen interest to me, but perhaps not all. So let's get back to the main topic; Robert asked "Do you own a piece of Apollo 11?" to help build an inventory of what's out there.

So here are the items I have on display, none of them flown or "part of Eagle"...

My favorite is the Grumman construction log for Eagle, with notes between the day and night shifts;

I built a spreadsheet from the data to look for patterns, and they generally maintained a pace of working Monday through Saturday. They did get a reprieve for the July 4 weekend, but then worked seven days a week from July 8 until July 27. And throughout, they rotated between day and night shifts on a weekly to biweekly basis.

Neil Armstrong's lunar globe that he gave to his parents:

X-ray of his boots, 9 days before launch:

DSKY used in the CM Simulator:

And docking model used in training:

The typewritten bacon-rich menu for Neil Armstrong, which reminds me of a story when I met him and he told me he had nightmares of the ascent stage VPA for months before launch.

And the prototype build of the first flag on the moon, as well as the Goodwill Disc:

posted 07-16-2014 10:02 PM               

The EVA handle from Columbia that Larry asked about earlier on the thread. It finally resurfaced on eBay with a "Buy it Now" option:

Having read this thread, would it be accurate to say that this is the only flown part of Columbia outside of the Smithsonian (besides Kapton foil)?

Buzz's tribute to Michael Jackson.

posted 07-16-2014 10:15 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Jurvetson:
...would it be accurate to say that this is the only flown part of Columbia outside of the Smithsonian?

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posted 07-17-2014 11:38 AM               

The use of the word "legitimate" intrigued me. I will try to ping him about that.