posted 05-26-2008 12:34 PM               

I've put all the entries in a simple temporary webpage here.

As a brief summary:

For Apollo 11. There is no mention in the stowage lists of a flag kit, although a set of flags is explicitly noted in the Press Kit.

For Apollo 12 the flag kit is explicitly listed as stowed in the LM at launch, as is the case with all subsequent flights (before 17).

Apollo 16 also carries a second flag kit, but stowed on the the CM rather than the LM.

For Apollo 17 the new APK/OFK rules were introduced and the flag kit is replaced by an Official Flight Kit of 13.5lb (in 10 bags) stowed for the duration of the flight in the Command Module.

Comments/Questions:

Where do the NASA apollo flown flags presentations come from?

The press kit of Apollo 12 explicitly states that 50 U.S. flags were to be carried on the flight, and for Apollo 13 through 16 it is stated that 25 U.S. flags are carried. The number of other flags carried is not explicitly stated so it is possible, indeed likely, that at least two flags of each state and of each UN country were carried in order to allow for damage/loss, but here I'm really concentrating on U.S. flags.

Of course most, if not all, astronauts carried numerous flags for themselves and it seems likely that the presentations that were given by the crews to personal friends (using printed NASA certificates) came from the astronaut's own stock of flown flags rather than NASA's flag kit.

In fact it seems to me that most of the flown flag presentations we see on the market were probably awarded on behalf of the astronauts and therefore used flags carried in the CM PPKs of the astronauts rather than in the flag kits.

That still leaves official NASA U.S. flown flag presentation certificates that were awarded by NASA directly rather than by the astronauts. We have to assume that these are all drawn from the flag kit stock of 25 U.S. flags (50 for Apollo 12), which is really a very small number.

This is made more interesting by the fact that the flag kits for Apollo 12, 14 and 15 (and probably that of 11) were explicitly carried on the LM. That would imply that the official NASA flown flag presentations from these flights (not those given by the crews) used a lunar surface flown flag.

There is a complication with Apollo 15 since it's not clear if the flag kit was actually lost alongside the PPKs, and for Apollo 16 there was one flag kit on the CM and one on the LM so you can't immediately know where a particular flag was carried.

posted 05-26-2008 12:51 PM               

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Originally posted by spaced out:
We have to assume that these are all drawn from the flag kit stock of 25 U.S. flags (50 for Apollo 12), which is really a very small number.

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As best as I can surmise, the U.S. flags used for official NASA presentations were neither in the flag kit or the astronauts' PPKs. From what I can discern, they were flown without being manifested.

Per a 1974 memo, we know that an official flight kit flew on each of the lunar landing missions, though they weren't referred to (or manifested) as such until Apollo 17. The Acting Associate Administrator for Organization and Management reported to the NASA Administrator that 6,000 flags remained from the Apollo landing missions after "numerous Congressmen, Governors, (some mayors and other political figures) some universities and investigators and some distinguished NASA employees and contractors have been 'honored...'" and that he expects an additional 10,000 to 15,000 flags to be flown during the 70s on Skylab, ASTP and the shuttle.

Further, he makes recommendations as to how the remaining supply of flags be reserved/awarded:

• Apollo 11 Flags - Presidents, Vice Presidents

• Apollo 12 Flags - Cabinet Members, Congressional Leaders

• Apollo 11-16 Flags - Governors, NASA Administrators

• Apollo 17 - Recipient of the NASA Medal of Honor and Top Consultants, Scientists and Industrial Leaders, other members of Congress

• SL-2 - State and local government officials regarding their participating in the Application Program, including officials of other government agencies.

• SL-3, SL-4, ASTP, Shuttle - Government civil service and private sector experimenters, researchers, and Administrators and others recognized by the NASA Awards Program, perhaps limited to the recipients of the Exceptional Service Medal, the Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal and the Exceptional Bravery Medal. The flags could well be incorporated into the NASA seal and/or certificate.

posted 05-26-2008 01:36 PM               

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Originally posted by jimsz:
After all, we are the ones who get to foot the bill for all of it.

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Just because more flags were flown than (for example) spacesuits, doesn't mean the taxpayer is more entitled to the earlier than the latter; they have no claim on either.

posted 05-26-2008 01:59 PM               

Presumably these OFKs had to be stowed on the CM, otherwise you would expect them to at least have to appear on the LM-CM transfer list to avoid the package being left behind on the LM by accident.

posted 05-26-2008 02:21 PM               

For that history, see NASA Contractor Report 188251: Where No Flag Has Gone Before: Political and Technical Aspects of Placing a Flag on the Moon.

It is uncertain who manufactured the flag that was deployed by the Apollo 11 crew. According to a NASA Press Release of 3 July 1969, "the Stars and Stripes to be deployed on the Moon was purchased along with several others made by different manufacturers at stores in the area around the Manned Spacecraft Center near Houston. In order to attach the flag properly to its aluminum staff it was necessary to remove the binding and labels. For this reason the name of the manufacturer cannot be determined." (NASA Press Release 69-83E, 3 July 1969, on file at the JSC History Office). In his book, "All We Did Was Fly to the Moon," (Gainesville, FL: Whispering Eagle Press, 1988), p. 121, Dick Lattimer states that the flags that went to the moon were made by Annin & Co. Randy Beard, Sr., of Annin contacted the Public Affairs Office at NASA Headquarters regarding the flag shortly after the moon landing. His company had supplied many flags to NASA throughout the manned space flight program. Beard was told that three secretaries had been sent out to buy 3x5-foot nylon flags during their lunch hours. After they had returned it was discovered that all of them had purchased their flags at Sears. Annin was the official flag supplier for Sears at the time so this story seemed to confirm that the flag had been made by Annin. Beard was informed that NASA would not confirm the manufacturer of the flag because they didn't "want another Tang" -- in other words, the agency did not want another advertising campaign based upon the fact that a commercial product had been used by the astronauts. (Randy Beard, Sr., Annin & Co., personal communication, 24 August 1992 and 10 September 1992.) Jack Kinzler was unable to verify that the flags were purchased at local stores or that the labels were removed. His notes indicate that the flags were purchased from the Government Stock Catalog for $5.50. (Kinzler, interview, 30 August 1992.)

posted 05-27-2008 11:02 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Philip:
...before I believe this story

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posted 05-28-2008 12:45 PM               

The "6,000 flags remained from the Apollo landing missions" is an interesting figure. If you divide that by 7 missions (including 13?) you get about 857 flown flags per mission (undistributed).

535 members of Congress + 50 governors + 10 cabinet members = at least 600 flags from each mission that were distributed. Add in the other catagories listed and you could easily have another 200, for a total (seemingly) of at least 1,657 flags carried per mission!

posted 05-28-2008 01:12 PM               

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Originally posted by Go4Launch:
Can we ever know what the real numbers are? It would certainly help set values...

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As to setting value, no matter how many flew, even if there were (as it appears) thousands per mission, very few (relatively) are offered on the market. Either they are still treasured as awards (or family heirlooms), belong to the public office (in the case of Congress, governors) or have simply been lost to the passage of time.

Even were to we to know the exact count, experience suggests it wouldn't have a great impact on setting value.

posted 05-28-2008 01:36 PM               

The 'unofficial' flight kit (UFK?) implied by Robert's findings seems likely to have been installed at launch in the CM. Anything stowed on the LM would surely had to have been on the LM->CM transfer list in order to avoid being left behind.

posted 05-31-2008 03:49 PM               

If you've got something like 850 flags per mission in stock why reserve them for just presidents and VPs, as seems to be suggested for Apollo 11? A stock of 850 flags is going to last centuries at that rate.