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Author
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Topic: Space capsule metal flotation spheres (balls)
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davo3333
New Member Posts: 4
From: houston TX
Registered: May 2006
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posted 11-20-2007 10:45 AM
   
Did Apollo command modules use metal flotation balls like some of the Mercury capsules? These were the metal spheres about three inches diameter that consist of two hemispheres crimped together. For Mercury they were packed inside the capsule in vacant spaces to provide for flotation in case of swamping. They come up for auction occasionally. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-20-2007 12:26 PM
I believe that the metal flotation spheres were only used for Gemini. |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-20-2007 02:02 PM
The use of these spheres in Gemini has always mystified me. I know that flotation foam was used effectively in the nose of the Gemini. But I never heard of these spheres until they started appearing at auctions. I have never seen documentation of their use. Frankly I can't imagine a collection of these metal spheres clattering around in a zero-g Gemini nose waiting to short out something or jam something. Of course I could be wrong, but I sure would like to see some proof of their use. |
stsmithva
Member Posts: 1933
From: Fairfax, VA, USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-20-2007 03:51 PM
I think the reason for this thread might be a recent listing on eBay. It is for a tiny metal sphere made of two hemispheres welded together. I'll paste in the story as written, but I have to say that from my layman's view having hundreds of little metal balls sandwiched into the capsule would be a nightmare. On Earth my dad worked for McDonnell Douglas and was an engineer for them. One of his many jobs was the crane that lifts all the spacecraft in the VAB (Vertical Assembly Building). This is how he knew many of the astronauts and also because he was a part time bartender at a local hang out for fly boys in Cocoa Beach. (Those stories go to my grave.) Now what is this object and what did it do. After Gus Grissom blew the bolts on the capsule door before the divers could put the flotation collar around it and the space capsule sunk, NASA said "what can we do to prevent this from ever happening again?" Well they came up with a very lightweight flotation ball made of metal. It is about 1 and 3/8 around the weld and 1 and 1/4 top to bottom. They would place them in all the spaces between the outer capsule wall and the inner wall that contained all the wiring, communication, and life support systems. It was tested in large water tanks at the space center and it worked well and added very little weight, now the space capsule was unsinkable. After Apollo 11 splashed down and returned to Florida they opened up the capsule and to check out all the electronics they had to remove all the flotation balls. These were given to very special high ranking personnel and astronauts. Most of the balls are gone and were never thought to be of any value, but that's where my dad comes in. Days after the splas down he ran into Neil at the cape. He asked if he could have one of the flotation balls for his son Michael (that's me). Neil gladly gave one to my dad and I have kept it all this time. |
Aztecdoug
Member Posts: 1405
From: Huntington Beach
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 11-20-2007 05:29 PM
Days after the splashdown he ran into Neil at the cape. Hmmm... Neil was at the Cape days after the Apollo 11 splashdown? This doesn't pass the smell test. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-20-2007 07:56 PM
Actually, if I recall, Armstrong wasn't back at the Cape until November 1969 and again in July 1974. The first moonwalker and his crewmates were quite busy all throughout 1969-70 with their post-flight quarantine period, numerous briefings and reports, their worldwide tour, other official appearances, and working with a new assignment as NASA's Deputy Associate Administrator for Aeronautics. |
Go4Launch
Member Posts: 542
From: Seminole, Fla.
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 11-20-2007 08:28 PM
All I can add to this discussion is that I have a small metal sphere identical to the one shown in the eBay auction. The former Cape worker I got it from told me it was from Faith 7 and that they were titanium. If true, that would track with the seller's claim they were instituted after Libery Bell 7's sinking. Still, I also have never seen (or looked) for documentation as to whether they WERE used in post-Grissom Mercury capsules. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 11-24-2007 12:05 PM
"Results of the First U.S. Manned Orbital Space Flight Feb. 20, 1962," page 8 says: The Mercury spacecraft after body heat protection, as shown in figure 2-6, consists of a double-wall construction with insulation between the outer and inner walls. There is no mention of flotation balls. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-25-2007 10:17 AM
...for Mercury they were packed inside the capsule in vacant spaces to provide for flotation in case of swamping. If you have ever looked inside a Mercury capsule, there are really no vacant spaces. You could have fit a few spheres as described, maybe behind the left side of the periscope, but I don't think you could have put enough in to make a difference.The capsule splashdown weight was around 2000 pounds (we could look up the exact number). There wasn't much that was sealed that would have displaced water. the two helium tanks, the peroxide tanks, and maybe a few of the instruments were sealed. So to displace enough water to support a swamped capsule would taken a LOT of those spheres described... Somehow the math just doesn't add up. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 11-26-2007 07:23 AM
The Mercury splashdown weight was 2160 lbs. Under a 63 foot ringsail parachute it would have a rate of decent of 30 feet per second. |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-26-2007 07:39 AM
In the case of MA-6 post retro pack jettison/flotation weight was 20 percent higher (2410 pounds). |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-26-2007 09:51 PM
I pulled this page (PDF) from a capsule spec I found. Of course each capsule was different and this was just a baseline spec, but it is interesting to see where the weight came from, or went in this case.Just for fun, I also checked the weight of seawater and it works out that a 3 inch sphere weighs about .5 pounds (someone could check my math). So it would take a LOT of them to float any significant weight. They are not the most practical shape for flotation either... |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-01-2015 06:20 PM
I have recently come into possession of one of these 3" spheres from the personal collection of Guenter Wendt. It comes with a handwritten letter stating the sphere is made of titanium and that it flew on a Mercury flight (he was not sure what flight) but most probably Friendship 7, Sigma 7, or Faith 7. I was hoping there was more information learned since this thread was started and maybe someone would have an update. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-01-2015 07:01 PM
I believe the titanium flotation spheres that you're referring to are 3 cm (about 1 1/4") in diameter, as opposed to 3" as you posted. I do have some information on these spheres but most of it is contradictory. Feel free to email me if you're interested in what I've uncovered. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-01-2015 07:25 PM
I will measure it in the morning. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-01-2015 07:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Katzowitz:
Feel free to email me if you're interested in what I've uncovered.
Unless you'd be breaking confidences, it would be good if you could add what you know, or have been told, to this thread so that others may benefit from or discuss the information as well. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-02-2015 09:48 AM
Without disputing someone's claim the spheres are flown, could they have been used for something other than flotation?I have seen it on several occasions where experiments were often added last minute to those early flights. They could have been flown to measure vacuum/space effects on them for various reasons. Metal deformation, weld durability, structural integrity, radiation are some examples of stuff we take for granted now but was all pretty new back then. Some engineer could have stuck them in last minute and retrieved them without much fuss. All that said, I consider myself pretty well versed in Mercury capsules and have never seen reference to 'metal spheres' anywhere. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-02-2015 06:29 PM
Whether or not the spheres were flown as part of the Mercury spacecraft is one issue. I've been trying to find corroborating evidence to support that for a while now but haven't had much luck. However, there is a good bit of documentation that similar spheres were used in the early Gemini missions (GT-2 and GT-3).As far as their function is concerned, there is evidence available to backup the flotation/buoyancy theory. To quote a handwritten note I received from Guenter Wendt regarding the spheres: These little balls were used in the early Mercury capsules (Ham, Shepard, and Grissom), which had beryllium heat shields, to upright the s/c after a water landing. They were located in little bags in the forward (cylindrical) section of the capsule. Discontinued after we went to the phenolic heat shields. (Glenn) — Guenter |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-02-2015 06:44 PM
I have access to a fairly extensive archive at the Space Walk of Fame museum. When time allows I will research this and see what turns up. I am now in possession of three letters regarding the origin of this item and two are from Guenter himself. All three tell a slightly different story of what flight this might have been on but all attest to the Mercury program flown status. That being said we know these spheres where used for flotation on Gemini so it may be possible that Guenter thought this was Mercury when in fact it was a Gemini artifact. He sold this in 1993 and memories some times fade over the years. Just a possibility? |
SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-03-2015 05:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
That being said we know these spheres where used for flotation on Gemini
We do? |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-03-2015 06:44 AM
We have seen spheres sold at auctions with plates saying they were flown on Gemini 3, for example.I have engineering documentation showing their use at least in early Gemini spacecraft. They were installed in the RCS section (nose) to improve flotation. As many as 1300 [edit: 1700] were to be installed in the empty volume of the RCS section. However, I believe these were replaced by foam material in later vehicles. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-03-2015 07:36 AM
Regarding Guenter's memory of the mysterious flotation ball spheres, he goes back to the 1980s with what appears to be a clear memory of their purpose and spacecraft program uses. As a matter of fact, it was one of the first Guenter "flown" artifacts that he started to release decades ago as Rick Boos had expressed a keen interest in the devices that Guenter said had been a part of Project Mercury, or from the Mercury-Atlas orbital flights from 1962-63. Our mutual friend, Rick, helped Guenter on the fact-finding and research of such flotation devices during that same time period. Maybe he can provide more info on the topic here. I'll see if he can. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-03-2015 08:08 AM
The hand written note from Guenter Wendt that I quoted earlier in the thread was written in 2004. In the note he specifically states the flotation balls were only used for the Mercury sub-orbital missions. That could be the result of a fading memory. I certainly don't think any of these contradictory pieces of evidence is an attempt to deceive. |
thisismills
Member Posts: 263
From: Michigan
Registered: Mar 2012
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posted 11-03-2015 08:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by space1:
I have engineering documentation showing their use at least in early Gemini spacecraft.
Great topic and sounds like you have some interesting information that not many others have seen. Would it be possible to share? |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-03-2015 12:09 PM
This is the drawing showing one set of flotation balls packaged for installation in the Gemini RCS section. |
Lou Chinal
Member Posts: 1306
From: Staten Island, NY
Registered: Jun 2007
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posted 11-03-2015 01:21 PM
The only recovered section that I know of came from Gemini 5. is there anyone in Houston willing to put in the time to find a solution? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 11-03-2015 01:52 PM
Lou, are referring to the Gemini 5 recovered Titan stage? As I understand it, the metal spheres being discussed here were part of the Gemini capsule itself, not the stage, and so would have been recovered on every mission they were used. |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-03-2015 02:13 PM
I believe Lou is referring to the Rendezvous and Recovery section, which as I recall was recovered on Gemini V. These flotation balls, when used, were in the Reentry Control System (RCS) section, the cylindrical nose of the Gemini when recovered. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-03-2015 03:06 PM
Very good John (space1). Never saw anything before with a reference, drawing, etc. pertaining to the flotation balls. |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2474
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-03-2015 03:25 PM
Interesting drawing, looking at the info on the drawing it appears the balls are some sort om McD standard. What is really a new piece of information to me is the fact that they take them and hold them in a fiberglass cloth tube that is folded over and sewn together. Thanks for sharing. |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-03-2015 06:02 PM
The balls are not a McDonnell standard part, but a specific Gemini part (part number 52-84084-3). McDonnell Gemini part numbers are 52-XXXXX.I just located a sheet saying 1700 flotation balls were allocated each for Gemini 2 and 3. They were not used in the other vehicles. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-03-2015 06:25 PM
Great information John!!!But whether the flotation balls were ever used in a Mercury spacecraft is still, in my mind, an open question. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-03-2015 08:55 PM
There is no evidence they were used in Mercury other than personal statements. As one becomes more familiar with the Mercury capsules, it is even more clear there was just no where to put them. There was a comment that someone recalled they were in the suborbital flights. Liberty Bell 7 is the most complete and original out of all the capsules as it wasn't molested over the years. I have personally spent lots of time around it (I was once a regular volunteer) and have spent time with most of the staff and people that restored it. I have studied literally thousands of photographs and documents and have NEVER seen reference to metal balls. It seems like some sort of hard evidence would have surfaced by now. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-04-2015 05:13 AM
As it would seem most of the evidence points to the flotation balls being used in the Gemini program, it does bring into question why Guenter would have insisted these where used in the Mercury capsules? As I pointed out I have two letters from him stating this particular flotation sphere originated in the early Mercury flights. As I never had the opportunity to meet Mr. Wendt I will go with Ken's assertion that he had a clear mind, good memory and worked with Rick Boos in the late 1990s to authenticate the flight this sphere came from. I have the letter from Rick also and it clearly states this item was from an early orbital flight. The mystery continues and I appreciate all the information from the cS sleuths. |
space1
Member Posts: 853
From: Danville, Ohio
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 11-04-2015 05:53 AM
We can round out this discussion (honestly no pun intended) with a look at the drawing for the flotation ball itself. Note that it is made of 0.005" thick 302 stainless steel. |
Joel Katzowitz
Member Posts: 808
From: Marietta GA USA
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted 11-04-2015 07:28 AM
I agree with Mercsim regarding the lack of hard or official documentation of the balls being flown on a Mercury s/c. However, it's hard to ignore all of the anecdotal evidence. I have a LOA from a technician who worked at the Cape on Project Mercury. His LOA states: This is to certify that the accompanying titanium buoyancy ball flew in space aboard the Mercury 9 spacecraft piloted by astronaut L. Gordon Cooper on May 15, 1963. This small buoyancy ball, measuring 3 cm in diameter, was removed from the forward section of Mercury 9, known as "Faith 7", as part of the preparations for displaying the capsule following the 22-orbit mission - the final flight of Project Mercury. It's signed: XXXX
Airman Second Class, USAF
6555th Aerospace Test Wing
Cape Canaveral, Florida |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-04-2015 12:26 PM
Titanium or Stainless? If you look at the forward section of a Mercury capsule, half of it was parachutes. The other half contained a divider bulkhead, Pilot chute gun, deployable antennas, barometer switches, a strobe package, and lots of electrical connectors. There was very little usable volume. There wasn't room for more than a handful of those spheres at best. Maybe a very young Airman remembered something different. It doesn't seem like a long stretch they were only used for Gemini and old memories fade. I'm a watch fan and some of the Astronauts have confused what watch they wore. |
Chuckster01
Member Posts: 873
From: Orlando, FL
Registered: Jan 2014
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posted 11-04-2015 03:46 PM
There is still a lot of testimonies for flown Mercury buoyancy balls. Joel, I would love a copy of your letter to add to my growing file of documentation for flown on Mercury theory. If you do not mind would you please email me a scan. Thank you. |
mercsim
Member Posts: 219
From: Phoenix, AZ
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 11-04-2015 05:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Chuckster01:
There is still a lot of testimonies for flown Mercury buoyancy balls.
I guess I don't see an eBay narrative, an unknown, young military pad worker, and a Pad Engineer as "a lot." We all know better that to trust eBay. What role would a young military airman have in spacecraft configuration? Guenter was VERY busy and things changed very rapidly in those days so its not a stretch that he got confused with Gemini. His work was pad checkout and not capsule configuration. Still nothing even close to evidence... |
GACspaceguy
Member Posts: 2474
From: Guyton, GA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 11-04-2015 06:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mercsim:
Titanium or Stainless?
It is 302 Stainless. |
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