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Author
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Topic: Flown flag 'controversy' on NASA Watch
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Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-11-2006 10:44 AM
   
An eBay sale by Alex Panchenko, USSR-AirSpace.com, has attracted the attention of Keith Cowing at NASA Watch: More Bad Judgement on ISSSoyuz TMA-5/ISS-10 Flown American Confederate Flag, eBay "4 x 6 inches American Confederate Flag flown on board Soyuz TMA-5 and International Space Station 192 days during Expedition-10. Cancelled on orbit with three handstamps (main handstamp BOARD OF ISS and two round onboard handstamps Soyuz TMA-5 and ISS-10). Signed by ISS-10 crew Leroy Chiao (ISS-10 commander) and Salizhan Sharipov (Soyuz TMA-5 commander, ISS-10 engineer)." Editor's note: Looks like this pile of flags was flown for one purpose: profit. This seems to be something initiated by Russia - not the U.S. None the less, you'd think that someone on the U.S. side of the ISS program would have expressed some concern about flying a symbol on the ISS that many Americans associate with slavery. I wonder what the Russians would think if the U.S. flew this flag? Let's see what NASA PAO says on Monday morning. Besides the P.C. objection put forth by Cowing, it also raises questions pertaining to the ISS Code of Conduct, the relevant passage from which follows: Use of PositionISS crewmembers shall refrain from any use of the position of ISS crewmember that is motivated, or has the appearance of being motivated, by private gain, including financial gain, for himself or herself or other persons or entities. Performance of ISS duties shall not be considered to be motivated by private gain. Furthermore, no ISS crewmember shall use the position of ISS crewmember in any way to coerce, or give the appearance of coercing, another person to provide any financial benefit to himself or herself or other persons or entities.
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SpaceAholic
Member Posts: 4437
From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-11-2006 12:31 PM
I am not a proponent of the Confederate flag or its implied symbology however NASA would be potentially opening itself up to ACLU 1st amendment attacks if it selectively weans out flags like this... to remain a balanced/non-offensive policy NASA would almost have to restrict the flight of all flags. As for the ISS code of conduct governing financial gain (by individual or entity), NASA's inability to inhibit Russian Tourist flights, commercial shoots and advertisements onboard ISS has established precedent and eroded the integrity of NASA position. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3161
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-11-2006 12:48 PM
This is a tough one... but surely there must be some line drawn for flags that are no longer representative as the official flags of a place - for example, NASA would never fly a Nazi flag? |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-11-2006 12:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAholic:
As for the ISS code of conduct governing financial gain (by individual or entity), NASA's inability to inhibit Russian Tourist flights, commercial shoots and advertisements onboard ISS has established precedent and eroded the integrity of NASA position.
The ISS Code of Conduct was written and agreed to after the advent of "spaceflight participants" (tourists) and therefore takes their activities into account by defining them as separate from "crewmembers".As for "commercial shoots and advertisements," so long as they are not being arranged by the crewmembers themselves but by the space agency, they are not a violation of the Code. To the best of my knowledge all such official activities to date — including the upcoming golf shot — were negotiated directly with Roscosmos. The Code is not a "NASA position" but a set of guidelines agreed upon by all ISS partners. As to selectively weaning out undesirable messages, similar guidelines are in place for the selection of spaceflight participants. From the "Principles Regarding Processes and Criteria for Selection, Assignment, Training and Certification of ISS (Expedition and Visiting) Crewmembers": The following list defines some of the factors that would be considered as a basis for disqualification: (a) delinquency or misconduct in prior employment/military service; (b) criminal, dishonest, infamous, or notoriously disgraceful conduct; (c) intentional false statement or fraud in examination or appointment; (d) habitual use of intoxicating beverages to excess; (e) abuse of narcotics, drugs, or other controlled substances; (f) membership or sponsorship in organizations which adversely affect the confidence of the public in the integrity of, or reflecting unfavorably in a public forum on, any ISS Partner, Partner State or Cooperating Agency. The emphasis above is mine. |
Rochemontagne
Member Posts: 187
From: Loveland, CO U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-11-2006 08:24 PM
I heard, from a reliable source, that Tokarev, Expedition 12, was caught trying to take an extra 5 kgs of items up with him. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-13-2006 06:33 PM
Alex Panchenko is now claiming that the confederate flags flown on ISS-10 were fake. From NASA Watch: Editor's 13 June 6:40 pm EDT update: I just spoke with Alex Panchenko, the person who posted this item on eBay. Panchenko called to tell me that he had spoken with Salizhan Sharipov today and that Sharipov knew absolutely nothing about these flags. Panchenko told me that his source for these flags was a third party and not Sharipov. As such he is now convinced that these flags are not what they were presented as being and that they are forgeries.Moreover, Panchenko told me that he was unaware of the controversy that surrounds this flag in the U.S. until he consulted a history book. He told me that had he known what this flag represents to some people he would never have posted it on eBay in the first place or even consider selling it at all. Panchenko is now making certain that everyone knows that this was the result of an honest mistake and is trying to get eBay to pull the item off of its website. To me at least, this revelation by Alex raises some serious questions and concerns: - If these flags were faked, there is someone out there expertly photoshopping items into ISS photos. Photographs, I might add, which appear not to be among those released to the public on NASA's or Roscosmos' websites.
 - If these flags were faked, there is someone out there with a fake ISS cancellation device. I know there have been Mir postmarks forged but I was unaware (until now) that such was the case for the ISS markers.
 - If these flags were faked, then which (if any) other items on USSR-Airspace.com are suspect?
I would greatly appreciate if Alex would respond to these concerns publicly as his discovery may directly affect many collectors. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3161
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-13-2006 06:44 PM
In the interests of being fair to Leroy Chiao's reputation, I see on SpaceRef that he states: The Confederate flag story is a mystery to me. I don't remember seeing any aboard the ISS and I certainly don't remember signing one. I am baffled by the whole thing and can't even speculate on it. His signature would certainly be an easy one to imitate if the signed flags are indeed fake. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-13-2006 07:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by FFrench:
His signature would certainly be an easy one to imitate if the signed flags are indeed fake.
Agreed. But then his signature could be fake and the flown flags could still be real.My primary concern is that this auction: - was posted a reputable dealer
- included a cosmonaut signed COA
- included a photograph of the item on the ISS
- included all the right markings
...and is now deemed to be fake. If that is the case, how is anyone ever supposed to trust buying any item "flown" by the Russians again. What more proof could be provided? |
pokey
Member Posts: 361
From: Houston, TX, USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-13-2006 08:46 PM
From the photo it looks like five Confederate flags. Not a special request from a Civil War buff to fly a flag on ISS. Some dealer not familiar with American culture seemed to think they were clever to have thought of flying some antiquated American flags that had never been up in space before (perhaps for a good reason). I very much doubt Chiao would have signed any of the Confederate flags even for Sharipov because of his recognition of the flag and his employment as an astronaut which stresses no controversy in any dealings with anything whatsoever. It's someone's idea of a sweet moneymaking deal that has now gone horribly wrong. I agree with Robert - this does throw a nasty wrench into the space collecting gears. |
Hawkman
Member Posts: 400
From: Union, New Jersey
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-14-2006 03:08 PM
I like seeing quotes by Robert in news articles! In fact, I would rather see his quotes than that of the NASA 'watchdog'. However, Robert Pearlman, editor and founder of CollectSpace, said he believes the flags are authentic."The picture taken of the flags aboard the station says a lot," he said. "It would be difficult to fake, given the style and I couldn't see the motivation to do so." The "onboard-the-ISS" stamp, added Pearlman, is not known to have been counterfeited anywhere." |
spaceman
Member Posts: 1104
From: Walsall, West Midlands, UK
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-14-2006 03:55 PM
I do not believe any offense was meant by the alleged flying, signing and trading of these flags if they indeed were.Probably worse to deny something because of controversy and have to go through it again - the truth will out as they say. Flags have been flown on board space missions from the word go. Some US state flags incorporate elements of the Southern Cross to this day including Mississippi and Georgia.I bet both of these have been flown, without controversy or causing offense. The Union flag of Great Britain regularly appears onboard the ISS and I have seen flown and signed examples of it. To some people it is associated with the days of 'Empire' which were glory days depending on which side you were on. It has been hijacked by various extreme elements in this country and to some become a hated symbol. However I for one look forward to the day it adorns the ISS or moon base or Mars base on the spacesuit of a British explorer. The past is just that, so long as we learn from history and do not repeat the mistakes we will continue to advance and explore. By the same token I would not advocate the flying of some materials and believe that perhaps some rules need to be tightened. |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3161
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-14-2006 09:12 PM
The story has now reached the front page of MSN. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 06-15-2006 02:43 AM
I may need to check - but weren't such flags flown in the past on Apollo missions already? |
Bob M
Member Posts: 1744
From: Atlanta-area, GA USA
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 06-15-2006 08:44 AM
Flown flags on eBay are certainly nothing new, as Russian dealer "Maksuta" has been offering a large number and variety of flags said to have been flown on Mir for some time. With only about eight hours left in his current eBay auctions, he has a wide range and selection of flags bearing onboard rubber stamp markings as well as crew autographs. While no Confederate flags are offered, he has flags from many nations offered, including US flags said to have been flown on Mir on several Shuttle/Mir docking missions. These include STS-71, -76, -79 and -84. These have onboard rubber stamp markings meant to indicate that they were flown on Mir, along with US astronaut crew autographs that I, as a long-time astronaut autograph collector, would say are suspect. No photos are provided as evidence of authenticity, only stating that the flags came from the collection of a General Utkin, who was a Soviet military aviation general, and that others have added to the collection as time went on. |
Ken Havekotte
Member Posts: 2913
From: Merritt Island, Florida, Brevard
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 06-15-2006 01:54 PM
Agreed. I have often, like Bob, questioned such "flown" flags aboard the Russian Mir Space Station, and now, we come to the same topic involving the ISS. Even with all the so-called "documentation" (even a pic showing the rebel flags inside the orbiting outpost – could these photos be doctored to look like they were flown in space?) provided for the "flown" U.S. Confederate flags, their seller now claims they were not flown as indicated. We know that there are bogus Mir/Shuttle onboard postal markings and even fake crew signatures – but now, with the ISS! Perhaps the Russian Space Agency, NASA, and other sponsoring nations should adopt a unified documentation or certified procedure when it comes to flying ALL souvenirs, artifacts, and other memorabilia to once-and-for-all settle any/all "flown" concerns. In answer to Florian's question, only the Apollo astronauts themselves would know for sure, but I don't ever recall hearing about or seeing any Confederate flags that went to the moon. |
James Brown
Member Posts: 1287
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-15-2006 02:06 PM
I have seen State of Georgia flags for sale that were flown on Apollo missions. They contained the stars and bars back then, but nothing of just the Confederate flag by itself. |
spaceman
Member Posts: 1104
From: Walsall, West Midlands, UK
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-15-2006 04:05 PM
I like the sound of an international policy of recording space flown items. An inventory that could be consulted before parting with hard earned cash. In order to allow lots of people access to space flown items the U.S government and others should do more flown items (with serial numbers/holograms etc) on a regular basis with a more limited run than was used on the STS-8 covers and the later flown postage stamp but not so limited that space enthusiasts could not get hold of them at a reasonable price.I know it all comes down to the will to do it and the weight of the cargo but to stimulate interest it would be a winner particularly if they flew items for other countries too e.g. the International Space Station partners at the very least. |
mensax
Member Posts: 861
From: Virginia
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 06-16-2006 06:59 AM
I have seen a Confederate flag that was flown to the Moon on Apollo 17. I believe if you dig through the old Superior catalogs you will find it listed. |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 06-16-2006 08:27 AM
A confederate flag on a NASA presentation was offered for sale in the Superior Spring 1998 auction...So the uproar is somewhat hard to understand as this appears to be even an official presentation made with a confederate flag. |
Rochemontagne
Member Posts: 187
From: Loveland, CO U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-16-2006 08:34 AM
Thanks Florian. The uproar is because a certain segment of the population in the U.S. believes that everything has to be "politically correct" and, in their opinion, the Confederate Flag is not "politically correct". |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-16-2006 08:54 AM
Beyond the politically-correct angle, the issue still exists that flying souvenir-type items to the ISS is still very much a "cloak and dagger" operation with cosmonauts, collectors and dealers sometimes abusing the process (as the current situation illustrates). One solution to this problem is if RSC Energia were to formalize the offer for flying souvenir items to the ISS but maintain the market-driven prices (as opposed to the ridiculous rates charged, as an example, for canceling mail aboard the station). Similarly, Zvesda could be selling direct to collectors flown gloves and the like, as could RSC Energia for Soyuz parts. Add structure to the program, pay the cosmonauts for their time photographing and documenting the items, approve any crew time used of NASA astronauts (if any) and then everyone should be happy. |
Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-16-2006 09:24 AM
RocheMontagne is certainly correct by stating the problem was noted by those obsessed by 'political correctness'...Anyway, we all know to take care with Soviet-Russian items as some on eBay are offered stating that these returned by Progress to Earth (unmanned Progress always burns up in the atmosphere).  |
spaceflori
Member Posts: 1499
From: Germany
Registered: May 2000
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posted 06-16-2006 10:31 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Rochemontagne:
The uproar is because a certain segment of the population in the U.S. believes that everything has to be "politically correct" and, in their opinion, the Confederate Flag is not "politically correct".
Obviously the whole background with the confederate flag is pretty much unknown to non US people and I agree there could be better items to be flown if you have to choose one. (Why not a US flag or Russian flag or a flag of a participating country?) |
SpaceFanatic
unregistered
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posted 06-16-2006 10:50 AM
Robert after reading your posts and commentary for the MSN article I'm not sure what your point is. In the MSN article you state you feel the flags are real. Now you want clarification from Alex on the authenticity? Who is the expert here? There are several errors you have made that need to be pointed out. In your latest headline piece you state: quote:
Reporter Jim Oberg advanced the story on MSNBC with commentary by the astronaut with whom the flag flew and the seller, who now calls his own flag a fake.
Alex never stated it was his "own flag" he said it was from a third party. Once authenticity issues came to his attention he pulled the flag. He made a mistake and quickly corrected it. The second mistake comes in your last post when you complain about the ridiculous rates being charged. The rate you use an example comes from: quote:
The stamps will cost from $20,000 to $30,000," explained Rosaviakosmos spokesman Sergei Gorbunov in an interview with the Interfax news service.
Seems like your "solution" of going through offical Russian channels would lead to the high prices you're complaining about in the first place. It's important to note you use a photo of Alex then combine it with the quote from Rosavikosmos. Very sloppy journalism at best, in fact libel and slander issues might come into play. Robert can you clearly tell us what you're unhappy about? Is it the conderate flag PC angle? Or is authenticity? Or is high prices? |
FFrench
Member Posts: 3161
From: San Diego
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-16-2006 11:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by spaceflori:
So the uproar is somewhat hard to understand as this appears to be even an official presentation made with a confederate flag...
Not really - attitudes in 1972 are quite different to attitudes and perceptions in 2006. In my mind, a good thing. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-16-2006 11:33 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFanatic:
In the MSN article you state you feel the flags are real. Now you want clarification from Alex on the authenticity?
I would like if Alex would provide an explanation and evidence to support his claim that these flags are fake because the provenance he provided earlier seems to suggest otherwise (which is what I told MSNBC). quote:
Alex never stated it was his "own flag" he said it was from a third party.
Alex told NASA Watch that he sourced these flags from a third party. Once obtained, they were "his own" to sell. quote:
Seems like your "solution" of going through offical Russian channels would lead to the high prices you're complaining about in the first place.
...which is why I specifically limited my above suggestion to maintaining market-driven prices. quote:
It's important to note you use a photo of Alex then combine it with the quote from Rosavikosmos.
As Roscosmos (as it is called now) could not provide an illustration of space-flown and postmarked mail, I asked Alex for such an example. He provided the scan and permission for its use as you see in the article from April 2003. quote:
Robert can you clearly tell us what you're unhappy about? Is it the conderate flag PC angle? Or is authenticity? Or is high prices?
Authenticity. As asked in an earlier reply, given the provenance initially provided by Alex in his eBay sale, what more proof could be offered that an item is authentic? As it stands now, if we accept that these flags are fake, then neither a photo of the item on the ISS, a cosmonaut-signed COA, the markings made by the ISS cancellation or even the sale by a reputable dealer can be fully trusted.Further, the way by which these items are flown is less than desirable. If not a direct violation of the ISS Code of Conduct, collectors have reported all types of restrictions placed on their own memorabilia (once flown). These limitations include not being able to display or exhibit their items, not being allowed to even talk about them, and never identifying their source. This is not a healthy situation for the hobby and could have long-time ramificiations concerning authenticity of ISS-flown artifacts. Collectors should be seeking ways to work with the space agencies to permit such activities in the clear and open. |
cosmos-walter
Member Posts: 691
From: Salzburg, Austria
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 06-16-2006 12:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Philip:
(unmanned Progress always burns up in the atmosphere).
A few Progress-M had a Raduga capsule that transported Materials from Mir Space Station to earth. VBK-Raduga 1 was launched with Progress-M 5 on September 27th, 1990; VBK-Raduga 10 with Progress-M 22 on March 22nd, 1994. In my collection I have at least one cover, that was returned to earth with Raduga. A big part of Soviet/Russian space materials have postmarks and board cancellations, respectively. They enable experts like Igor Rodin or me to recognize faked space mail covers. We both are A.I.E.P experts for space mail. His address is: Igor Rodin, Poste restante, GPO, Moscow 101000. Thus it is much easier to identify flown Soviet/Russian space material than corresponding US material. |
Philip
Member Posts: 5952
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 06-16-2006 02:44 PM
I know about the Raduga capsules for the return of science experiments but never thought that some 'collector' items were among its cargo. So again, we learn something on cS.com. |
bravoblues
Member Posts: 15
From: Houston, Texas
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 06-16-2006 04:31 PM
This reminds me of a soap opera or tabloid topic. Leave the cosmonauts alone, they make very little salary so what if they suppliment. Space will become so commercially cheap to fly small flags in ten years, the cosmonaut's market will be gone then. |
Rochemontagne
Member Posts: 187
From: Loveland, CO U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-16-2006 04:44 PM
After reading all of posts against flying of these flags, I am still under the impression that the main reason for this uproar is because some people believe that these flags are not politically correct. |
SpaceFanatic
unregistered
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posted 06-16-2006 06:08 PM
Robert, if authenticity is your main concern why do you make no mention of it in your first post on the issue? |
SpaceFanatic
unregistered
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posted 06-16-2006 06:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bravoblues:
TLeave the cosmonauts alone, they make very little salary so what if they suppliment.
You're exactly 100% correct the cosmonauts are poor and train exhaustively for years to get on a flight. Who in their right mind want to be part of a career ending controversy? It would be extremely sad to see a cosmonauts career ended because of this. Unfortunately some people are completely missing the point that if the issue gets bigger and bigger that's exactly what will happen. We'll see a cosmonaut get canned. The collecting issues this website seems to be so concerned about are rather petty when you're talking about people's lives. Thank you for bringing the TRUE issue of what we're talking about to forefront. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-16-2006 10:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFanatic:
If authenticity is your main concern why do you make no mention of it in your first post on the issue?
At the time I made my first post, authenticity wasn't an issue (as no one, not even Alex, was claiming otherwise). My first post was simply to highlight space memorabilia making "news" on another website. I put 'controversy' in quotes because I didn't think there was one, at least not as how it was being framed on NASA Watch.I raised the issue of the ISS Code of Conduct because (a) it had been previously discussed here, and (b) as I correctly predicted, that was NASA Watch's next salvo in their own posts. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-16-2006 10:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFanatic:
...if the issue gets bigger and bigger
...which is why some structure is needed where there currently is none. Why do you think this issue is getting bigger and bigger? Could it be because eBay auctions and sale advertisements are becoming more bold? Do you think anyone in Star City might have a computer with internet access? What happens when and if they stumble upon Mickey Mouse dolls, diamonds, stamps, flags of every color and poppy seeds being offered for sale? Are they all then declared fake? No longer are we talking about individuals having flown personal items for themselves; now we are talking about dealers flying items for resale. Are the cosmonauts getting rich off these sales? Alex Panchenko writes on his website that the items he sells were gifts to him. |
SpaceFanatic
unregistered
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posted 06-16-2006 11:56 PM
quote:
Orginally posted by Robert Pearlman:
One solution to this problem is if RSC Energia were to formalize the offer for flying souvenir items to the ISS but maintain the market-driven prices (as opposed to the ridiculous rates charged, as an example, for canceling mail aboard the station).
When you talked in Alex in 2003 and asked for permission to use the photo did you raise any of your ISS code of conduct concerns then? If so where are they? Also your article seems to contradict your current position about the price being "ridiculous". In fact your own article explicitly explains why the price is reasonable. The price of one kilo in orbit etc.. |
SpaceFanatic
unregistered
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posted 06-17-2006 12:15 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
...which is why some structure is needed where there currently is none.
Isn't that really code for: I'm on the outside looking in and I want a piece of the action.You have so many questions in your last post because you aren't privy to the facts. The fact is you have space memorabilia business. I find it laughable you would expect someone in the same business as yourself, answer questions about his business just because you asked him to. That's like Bill Gates posting on Microsoft.com asking Steve Jobs why he wasn't included on the launch of the iPod. And expecting Steve to reply on Microsoft's website no less. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2006 06:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFanatic:
When you talked in Alex in 2003 and asked for permission to use the photo did you raise any of your ISS code of conduct concerns then?
Mail, to my knowledge, is not covered by the ISS Code of Conduct. quote:
Also your article seems to contradict your current position about the price being "ridiculous".
The article is not an editorial. The reasons given for the expense, as cited in the article, were provided by Rosaviakosmos. |
Robert Pearlman
Editor Posts: 42981
From: Houston, TX
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted 06-17-2006 06:31 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SpaceFanatic:
Isn't that really code for: I'm on the outside looking in and I want a piece of the action.
Last time I checked, I didn't work for RSC Energia, nor do I have any intention to do so in the near future. quote:
I find it laughable you would expect someone in the same business as yourself, answer questions about his business just because you asked him to.
Alex is a member of this site and has replied to questions before, so its not as laughable as you may have assumed. |
James Brown
Member Posts: 1287
From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 06-17-2006 10:40 AM
Geez, I see now that Keith is upset about what appears to be some balloons onboard the ISS. What's his problem? He must be really hard up for some attention. Hey Keith, how about a little cheese to go with that whine? |
Rochemontagne
Member Posts: 187
From: Loveland, CO U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 06-17-2006 12:25 PM
Doesn't NASA fly, at taxpayers expense, thousands and thousands of souvenirs on every Shuttle flight? Many of these eventually make it to the open market. |
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