posted 04-25-2005 07:02 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spgrissom:
As I stated earlier, the family had no idea that this was even going on.

---

Amanda truly admires Gus and his family, especially his wife, Betty, who never received the respect from NASA that she should have.

I believe the Grissoms are kind and wonderful people because Scott took the time to call my daughter when she sent him a paper she wrote in school about his father. Someone like that showed a great deal of integrity, humanity and genuine interest in helping her to see her dreams come true. He told her he was a regular person, just happened to have a famous father.

posted 04-25-2005 09:31 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by carolynmeyer:
and if a loan agreement was signed by NASA and the Grissom family regarding the space suit, doesn't that mean NASA regarded the suit as the Grissom's possession? If it didn't, why not tell them that before signing an agreement? You cannot borrow something unless the other person has posession.

---

1. In 1965, Gus Grissom signed a handwritten loan agreement (which still physically exists) with NASA for use of the suit;
2. Instead of recalling that loan after the 1967 fire, NASA chose to allow the Grissoms to remain in control of the suit so long as they didn't do something with it that they disapproved (per a NASA spokesman);
3. In 1990, Betty Grissom signed a loan agreement with the Astronaut Scholarship Foundation for display of the suit at the Astronaut Hall of Fame, controlled and owned by the Space Camp Foundation; (Mrs. Grissom falsely [perhaps unintentionally] represented her legal title to the suit and offered for loan an item she did not own; nevertheless, NASA had little problem with the family's decision to loan the suit to the Astronaut Hall of Fame and so did not object [for an example of a similar alleged loan violation, see the recent indictment of ex-Cosmosphere president Max Ary elsewhere on this site];
4. When the Space Camp Foundation filed for bankruptcy, Delaware North, as NASA's chosen contractor for the Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex, acquired rights to the Astronaut Hall of Fame; as part of that transition, new loan agreements needed to be established with each of the families and astronauts with artifacts in the museum;
5. Betty Grissom, based on her own comments to the media, objected to her husband being honored at a NASA-run facility [she didn't want NASA to "profit" from his memory], refused to sign a new loan agreement and requested her artifacts be returned;
6. NASA, no longer in agreement with the Grissoms' decisions regarding the spacesuit, instructed its contractor [Delaware North] to refuse Betty's request for the suit because she did not own it (per a NASA spokesman)

posted 04-26-2005 12:25 AM               

The suit belongs to all of us, not just one family. NASA is the rightful and legal care-taker, and it should remain that way. Now, if this young girl changed her rhetoric to a more constructive tone, rather than accusing NASA of nothing short of grand theft, I think her arguement would gain stronger support.

And I continue to doubt the suit ever even saw a dumpster!

posted 08-19-2005 05:39 PM               

I hope whichever way this turns out, your daughter learns that its never a waste of time to be involved. As a former CT Yankee (born and raised) I'm proud of her.

Mrs. Grissom never forgave NASA for killing her husband. Even though he clearly knew the risk involved. I feel bad that she was never able to heal from such a tragedy. I admire her for speaking her mind. If it hadn't been for Betty Grissom, Roger Chaffee would not be in the Hall of Fame.

posted 08-24-2005 07:40 AM               

Can a 15-year-old end an enduring dispute between the government and the family of an astronaut who met a tragic fate?

Amanda Meyer of Madison, Conn., is about to find out.

The family agrees that Amanda has one detail wrong. Her site says the family would like to display the suit at a small museum that honors Grissom in his boyhood home town of Mitchell, Ind. Betty Grissom said she would rather see it at Walt Disney World's Epcot Center in Orlando, about 50 miles east of where it's now displayed.

posted 08-24-2005 11:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
Let me explain: In 1965, Gus Grissom signed a handwritten loan agreement (which still physically exists) with NASA for use of the suit

---

Regardless, something is not right here. Either the Grissoms are mistaking the date in which they moved to Houston, or NASA has fudged some paperwork. I have worked for the govt. as part of the USAF. I know that it is not above the govt. to do so.

posted 08-25-2005 06:54 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spgrissom:
Are you positive that the date is correct?

---

Mid-1965 was also cited by the Washington Post and Florida Today (among other media sources), suggesting it wasn't a typo on my part.

Checking my records, it should be noted that two sets of NASA documents are cited to exist - the first from mid-1965, which has already been discussed, and a second that began recording in the 1970s where the spacesuit was until it was loaned to the AHOF in 1990.

posted 08-25-2005 06:57 PM               

Just some thoughts about these dates that are being discussed. I received (Amanda did) an email from a fellow who use to cart the garbage from NASA in the 60's and 70's. He said that he has collected many artifacts that have been in space and guess where he got them - that's right the trash. He also said his company did carting for Disney and over the decades he has collected the still frames that they used for animation from the garbage.

posted 08-25-2005 07:37 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by carolynmeyer:
...he said that he has collected many artifacts that have been in space and guess where he got them - that's right the trash.

---

quote:

---

Although many agree the space suit may or may not belong to the family, I don't think anyone would disagree the best place for the spacesuit for all involved is the Gus Grissom Memorial Museum. Then no one has it --- but Gus.

---

posted 08-25-2005 07:46 PM               

I have no idea as to the date of the signature, I was not even around at the time. I just know that hte suit made the trip from Langley to Houston in the trunk of Gus's car in 61/62 whenever they moved.

I saw the suit in March of this year and it appeared to have been very well cared for. I just wish there was a way for everyone to get what they want... but I am afraid that there is not.

posted 08-26-2005 09:05 AM               

quote:

---

I don't think anyone would disagree the best place for the spacesuit for all involved is the Gus Grissom Memorial Museum. Then no one has it --- but Gus.

---

Let's place aside the desires of the Grissom family (or more specifically, those of Betty Grissom) as they are reportedly now at odds with Amanda Meyer's campaign. The decision then as to where to display Grissom's Mercury spacesuit needs to be weighed on the merits of each venue.

By my understanding, the Grissom Memorial Museum in Mitchell Indiana currently has on loan from the Smithsonian:

• Gemini 3 spacecraft
• Grissom's Gemini 3 spacesuit with its helmets and gloves
• Gemini ejection seats
• Grissom's pencil flown on Gemini 3, and
• miscellanous components flown with Grissom

• Grissom's MR-4 spacesuit

There's something to be said about not putting all your eggs - or in this case, artifacts - in one basket.

The purpose of all space museums are to educate, enrich and entertain the public to the wonders, history and future of space exploration. Anyone passionate about space history would hopefully agree that in addition to those objectives, a goal should be to expose the most amount of people to the real space artifacts, while still caring for their protection and preservation.

Let's consider the microcosm of Amanda's Connecticut school classmates. How many are likely to visit Indiana? How many Florida? I am fairly confident that the latter out-numbers the earlier by several orders of magnitude.

Now enlarge that to a national, or better yet, international scale. If the intention is to honor Gus Grissom's memory, where are the most people likely to appreciate his spacesuit?

And while I (obviously) advocate the suit's display at the Astronaut Hall of Fame, if that were not to be its home, is the Grissom Memorial Museum the best alternative? What about the Kansas Cosmosphere, where his Mercury capsule is owned and will eventually permanently reside? What about some other museum where Grissom's spacesuit would be the centerpiece, rather than just another display? Or what about the National Air and Space Museum's Udvar-Hazy Center (as suggested in the Washington Post article), which would reach a larger audience than any other space museums could hope.

posted 08-26-2005 08:23 PM               

You are correct when you listed the items displayed at our memorial in Mitchell. We are very proud of Gus, as we should be. Lawrence Country Indiana is also the home to Charlie Walker and Ken Bowersox. So have lots of heritage when is comes to space history.

However, it was Gus that got things started. Is it just because we happen to have items which belonged to Gus in Gemini we should not have things that belong to him in Mercury? We have an outstanding exhibit honoring him and I think it would surprise you to the number of people who visit this very small town to see our park. While I was at the Hall of Fame in March, the number of people must have been down. There were not many there. I'm not saying we have the same number as the Hall of Fame, I am sure that it was the time of year, but I am saying that to say our numbers are too low and people would not see the suit or it would not be admired by a vast number of people I think is unfair.

posted 08-26-2005 10:11 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spgrissom:
Is it just because we happen to have items which belonged to Gus in Gemini we should not have things that belong to him in Mercury?

---

If I am not mistaken, there is no museum - other than the National Air and Space Museum itself - which has more than one flown spacesuit or spacecraft of a single astronaut's or for that matter, type/class (i.e. Mercury or Gemini) on loan or display. That's not by happenstance; its by design and goes back to the concept of spreading the the wealth. Even the KSC Visitor Complex recently lost the ASTP CM as a result of having two CM on display (the A14 CM is at the AHOF).

That said, it is my understanding that you have Grissom's flown Mercury helmet on display at the museum. The helmet is not on loan from the Smithsonian - which is an interesting question unto itself and merits further research - but is why it was left off the above list.

quote:

---

When NASA is making money off of someone who gave the ultimate for his country and for the conquest of space, one would think why all the sudden do they care so much for him?

---

Not to mention, the spacesuit now is in the custody of the Smithsonian. NASA no longer decides the spacesuit's fate or even has input into where it is displayed.

quote:

---

I only question is why the sudden change?

---

posted 08-26-2005 10:56 PM               

In today's world it is a breath of fresh air to hear of such dedication from someone so young. Not everyone is born with the 'right stuff'. And I wouldn't be surprised a bit if in 15 years or so I heard and read the words 'astronaut Amanda Meyer'.

You have a wonderful daughter. You should be very proud.

That said, I respect the Grissom family very much. Only they truly know the experience of having to deal with this personally. Before the Apollo 1 fire though, Gus' Mercury suit was just one of six. I don't know every fact of this subject, what was or wasn't said, signed, when or where. I'm not sure if anyone does.

I think having the suit displayed with the Liberty Bell 7 in Kansas is a good idea, but I have also been to the Astronaut Hall of Fame Museum many times and it is always special to see Gus' suit on dislpay there in it's own semi-private area. Gus is an inductee there and it is a very moving opportunity to stand there in front of it, especially when there is no one else around.

I do not know why or understand why Betty Grissom would rather have the suit displayed at a theme park less than fifty miles away. It would be a great injustice and disrespectful to Gus' memory in my opinion. KSCVC & the AHOF are not funded by NASA.

Disney says it's the happiest place on Earth, but we all know it caters mostly to families with small children, even at EPCOT. I'm afraid that diplaying the suit there would only get responses like, "Oh, isn't that cool? Hey! Which way to the restroom and stop hitting your brother!"

The AHOF Museum is a wonderful place with artifacts ranging from something as simple as an astronaut's grade school report card to a space capsule flown around the Moon, plus much, much more.

I think it's great other museums have artifacts of Grissom. But no one museum should have them all. That only limits accessibility to people all over.

I think the suit should stay at the AHOF, yet also, I think it'd be a great idea to alternate the artifacts between the Grissom Museum, the Cosmosphere and the AHOF from time to time. Perhaps that would put everyone involved at ease.

posted 08-27-2005 08:28 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Pearlman:
If I am not mistaken, there is no museum - other than the National Air and Space Museum itself - which has more than one flown spacesuit or spacecraft of a single astronaut's or for that matter, type/class (i.e. Mercury or Gemini) on loan or display.

---

I am not trying to sound rash, I am just defending the right of a hometown to have a nice memorial to one of our own.

quote:

---

The money generated by the Visitor Complex goes toward improving and running the facilities, as well as expanding educational efforts and even funding scholarships (an arrangement incidentally, that Betty Grissom helped to start).

---

posted 08-27-2005 08:36 AM               

As for the helmet, that specific helmet was given to the memorial by an Air Force pilot, who happen to have found it in one of NASA's trash heaps. There is an article in the Mitchell Tribune that has the story and pictures of the man presenting the helmet to Dennis Grissom, who was the father of Gus. If this is the case, and it was in a trash heap (from the 70's), just maybe there is some truth to the story that Gus told about NASA throwing the suits out. I am going to the library and I'll have the man's name shortly who found the helmet.

As I said earlier, just trying to defend his hometown in having the best memorial we can. That's all. Is it fair...maybe not, but then again, life is not fair.

posted 08-27-2005 10:04 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spgrissom:
Check me, I might be wrong but I believe that the Omniplex has several of Tom Stafford artifacts on display. I know that there is a suit there as well as Tom and Wally's Gemini capsule.

---

quote:

---

I am not trying to sound rash, I am just defending the right of a hometown to have a nice memorial to one of our own.

---

quote:

---

However, can anyone tell me as to why she was removed from the Board of Direcors as a founding member of the Scholarship Foundation? She did not relinquish her position willingly.

---

posted 08-27-2005 11:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by spgrissom:
Having said that, if you could or had the power to influence where artifacts went of a family member, would you not want to have as much as possible honoring him in his hometown? Or would you have it all moved away?

---

quote:

---

As for the helmet, that specific helmet was given to the memorial by an Air Force pilot, who happen to have found it in one of NASA's trash heaps.

---

According to an article in Sunday's Hoosier Times, a plaque inside the helmet's glass display case at Spring Mill State Park explains that it was donated by Grissom's parents, Dennis and Cecile. How the family came into possession of the helmet is not exactly known, but the Park's manager believes it was a gift from NASA after the Apollo 1 fire.

posted 08-27-2005 06:50 PM               

The article to which I refer to is some 30 years earlier.

Maj. Jerry Gentry USAF Ret., the man who discovered the helmet in a pile of what NASA had deemed items to be discarded, is now decreased. He in turn presented it to Norman Grissom, Gus' brother, who gave it to his parents, who gave it to the memorial.

posted 08-27-2005 09:54 PM               

That being said I wouldn't be against having the Mercury suit moved to the Grissom Museum. Maybe an exchange or a revolving exhibit could be arranged so that people from all over the country could benefit from seeing Gus' equipment. I don't think Disney is the place for serious exhibits of actual flown hardware.

You should know that my school honors every astronaut and cosmonaut who gave their life for space exploration. If you are ever in Florida on the first Friday in February, I would love to show you the school and have you educate my Young Astronauts about Gus Grissom.

posted 08-28-2005 09:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ron D:
My take on it is that NASA is the caretaker of the uniform, but that uniform belongs to all of us as taxpayers.

---

posted 08-29-2005 12:00 PM            

The behind-the-scenes look at the Smithsonian's spacesuit preservation workshop, the care and attention given to preserving them and storing / displaying them as well as the concerns they have identified with different materials eroding within the suits, made me more convinced than ever that all flown suits should remain in their care. As someone who has worked in the museum artefacts preservation field in the past, I feel that any other avenue would mean the suits would not be available for future generations: they will fall apart if not correctly conserved, it seems.

There's an entirely separate issue about where (if anywhere) they should be displayed, and the wishes of the astronaut and /or their family are important. But giving up ownership to private individuals would be a disservice to the astronaut's memory and to history, in my opinion, as the care and preservation of the spacesuit would no longer be in the hands of the experts.

posted 08-29-2005 02:31 PM               

Around the time Gus and family were moving his suit around in the boot of his car (and for a long time after) things weren't really much better for many suits.

posted 08-30-2005 09:31 AM               

"Amanda Meyer is a nice young lady, and as well meaning as she is, she's a third party in this," said Roger Launius, chairman of space history at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum.

Gus Grissom has always been my favorite astronaut ever since I first started reading up on the history of the space program. I'd love to see his Mercury suit returned to his hometown museum, but there are two big factors that make this whole thing a non-issue in my mind.

1. The museum in Mitchell, Indiana, hasn't asked for the suit.

2. The suit is on display at the Astronaut Hall of Fame. It's not like it's being stored away in some box and NASA or the Smithsonian won't let anyone see it. It's promiently displayed in a glass case at the Hall of Fame and it's very easy to see.

posted 09-02-2005 02:27 AM               

Now that withstanding, I believe the suit should remain at the AHOF. I am only 18, in high school, and still living with my parents. I can't afford to pay the money to go to Lawrence County to see the museum down there, although it sounds wonderful, and I guarantee you I can't talk my parents into taking a vacation there as I have already tried (twice.) But a few years ago I got the opportunity to go to Space Camp in Florida. While there, I got to see Mr Grissom's suit and it was one of the best parts of the trip. He's someone I've always looked up to and to see something like that was just awesome for me. Once again, the Lawrence County museum sounds great and I would like to go there someday, but think about all the people that go to Florida for Disney World or the beach and end up killing a day at the AHOF and KSC visitors' complex. Many more people can enjoy the artifact where it is than if you have to take a highly specific trip to an out of the way museum.

posted 09-09-2005 11:03 AM               

One interesting note to you about this is the number of people that have objects and space suits, yes I wrote space suits, that were taken from the garbage at NASA. One person sent Amanda photographic proof of a space suit from the Gemini missions that he got out of the dumpster. Even Dan LeBlanc of the Deleware North Corp. that manages the AHoF said they have been negotiating with private citizens to get back some of the space artifacts NASA "lost" long ago. He also said they pay alot of money for these items. If there is any doubt about this, I video taped Amanda's meeting with him. He also said that he would release the suit to the museum if the Smithsonian gave him something in return.

So the ball in now in the Smithsonian court. They have asked Amanda to come to Washington. I will let you know when that meeting is going to happen.

Amanda has had quite alot of support from Indiana. It appears the hoosier state wants the suit back in Mitchell.

Very grateful to everyone, again, for your kind words about Amanda.

posted 09-13-2005 01:15 PM               

You mean none of you?

I have heard first hand stories from, as I am sure you seasoned collectors know of people who worked at all sorts of government contractors facilities who took home things that were going into dumpsters, literally from flights that went into space, and traveled to the moon,

None of you have had any credible experiences with people who had access to engineers who you know without a doubt dumpster dove for "artifacts"?

I am sure, that this was going to be dumped in the garbage, NASA back then didn't prioritize these things as they should of until much later,

How do you think all these "flown articles" like bags, meal packs, circuit boards, etc. and other items get on the market?

From surplus sales, or dumpster diving, or from the astronauts themselves, who took the item because the items would have wound up in the garbage, in some landfill?

posted 09-13-2005 07:59 PM               

I, for one, do not have any items "fished out of the garbage". I suspect that very, very few people have prized items "fished out of the garbage".

I am very, very confident that NASA officials were quite well aware of the importance and value of items that flew in space. If they were concerned about astronauts not selling personal items (envelopes, etc), don't you think they would be concerned about them fishing their space suits out of the garbage and selling them to a collector in Germany (reference to the Apollo 15 flown covers scandal).

I seem to recall some sales years ago by a company, I think it was called ILC, of spacesuit hardware, much of it selling for ridiculously low prices. I don't know if any of those items were flown ... my guess would be no.

Were some freaking circuit boards flown on missions and then discarded in the trash? Um, maybe. I won't lose any sleep over it if they were. A circuit board and a space suit are two entirely different things ... and they ought to be viewed as such, in my opinion.

I certainly respect the opinions of those who have advocated one outcome or another regarding Gus Grissom's space suit, and I am THRILLED that there are some folks on here who are under the age of 40 who are even interested in the space program, much less taking an active role in trying to decide the fate of historic articles from the program.

posted 09-13-2005 08:27 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by capoetc:
I am very, very confident that NASA officials were quite well aware of the importance and value of items that flew in space. I seem to recall some sales years ago by a company, I think it was called ILC, of spacesuit hardware...

---