Author
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Topic: Astronaut seniority and STS-1 assignment
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Paul78zephyr Member Posts: 675 From: Hudson, MA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 07-02-2016 07:47 PM
If Jim Lovell had not retired and had stayed in the space program through the first space shuttle flight, would he have had seniority over John Young for command of STS-1? Young had a Gemini command before Lovell, but Lovell had an Apollo command before Young. |
Michael Cassutt Member Posts: 358 From: Studio City CA USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-02-2016 08:57 PM
Oh, I'll bite, and just say no. ![](http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/wink.gif) Seriously, though, it's an impossible question to answer fairly, since you don't specify what work Lovell would have done between 1972 and 1978, when the STS-1 crew was assigned. Was he chief astronaut in place of Young? Did he play a key role in Shuttle development, as Young did? If you posit a 'yes' to both, the answer might change... But, really, still "no" since seniority wasn't a deciding factor — especially seniority based on the vagaries of shifting flight assignments. |
Paul78zephyr Member Posts: 675 From: Hudson, MA Registered: Jul 2005
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posted 07-02-2016 09:51 PM
quote: Originally posted by Michael Cassutt: Was he chief astronaut in place of Young? Did he play a key role in Shuttle development, as Young did?
You tell me. |
onesmallstep Member Posts: 1310 From: Staten Island, New York USA Registered: Nov 2007
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posted 07-05-2016 08:38 AM
One key word here may be: computers. Not to look down on any slide-rule wielding astronauts or pilots, but Bob Crippen, for example, was chosen over others in his MOL transfer class of 1969 as pilot for STS-1 specifically because he was an expert and comfortable with computers at an early stage, and this allowed him to help in that area of the shuttle's development before the first flight. As to Lovell hanging around long enough to secure a shuttle command; who knows? The vagaries of time, schedules and personal desires have to be taken into account. Why didn't McDivitt remain in the Astronaut Office instead of sliding over to senior management? Or Haise staying after the ALT program to ride an orbiter into space? It depends on the circumstances, and the individual. |
JasonB Member Posts: 1091 From: Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 07-05-2016 10:06 AM
I think a more interesting question would be why Alan Bean wasn't given one of the early shuttle assignments. Was he already on his way out when they were given or was he passed over? I know he retired in 1981 and that he's mentioned he didn't like the competitive atmosphere of people vying for flights. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-05-2016 10:47 AM
quote: Originally posted by onesmallstep: Or Haise staying after the ALT program to ride an orbiter into space? It depends on the circumstances, and the individual.
Haise wasn't interested after the Skylab Rescue mission went away. He would have stayed had he been offered STS-1, Haise has said. |
carmelo Member Posts: 1047 From: Messina, Sicilia, Italia Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 07-05-2016 11:30 AM
More that Lovell, would be interesting to see a Pete Conrad around in 1979-81. If Conrad stayed to NASA as astronaut I think that the race for the CMDR seat of STS-1 was open. Especially if Conrad had obtained the role of Chief of Astronaut Office, as ask after that Deke left. |
Michael Cassutt Member Posts: 358 From: Studio City CA USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-05-2016 03:14 PM
Conrad wanted to succeed Deke as director of flight crew operations -- met with Kraft after his Skylab flight and was told no.Bean would have been assigned to a Shuttle/Spacelab mission had he stayed in the office, but by summer 1981 he was already making plans to leave. See his JSC Oral History for an amusing account of his meeting with Mr. Abbey. And yes, Haise would almost certainly have stayed with NASA to fly STS-3 for the Skylab rescue -- or any version of STS-3 in 1980, not 2-3 years later. In 1979 he was offered a job with Grumman that he wanted, and didn't believe it would still be an option if he passed on it at that time. |
Hart Sastrowardoyo Member Posts: 3445 From: Toms River, NJ Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 07-05-2016 07:57 PM
Deke had a photo of him with the space shuttle - but why didn't he get one of the early flights? |
DeepSea Member Posts: 68 From: Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 07-06-2016 06:10 AM
quote: Originally posted by carmelo: More than Lovell, would be interesting to see a Pete Conrad around in 1979-81.
Still love the spitballing discussion about putting Pete Conrad on STS-41-D instead of Charlie Walker.
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Fra Mauro Member Posts: 1587 From: Bethpage, N.Y. Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 07-06-2016 06:57 AM
Why was Conrad told no about being Chief of the Astronaut Office? |
YankeeClipper Member Posts: 617 From: Dublin, Ireland Registered: Mar 2011
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posted 07-06-2016 07:25 AM
quote: Originally posted by JasonB: I think a more interesting question would be why Alan Bean wasn't given one of the early shuttle assignments.
Al Bean had already accomplished a huge amount by the time the Shuttle first flew i.e. he had flown to and walked on the Moon, and he had commanded a Skylab mission. He also had been taking art classes for many years. Here is what he says in his JSC Oral History:Something I began to learn as the acting chief of the Astronaut Office was that George Abbey wanted to really do that job.I was planning about this time, thinking about what I was going to do. Was I going to fly the Shuttle? I was doing all the things you do to be a Shuttle commander. I was getting as much simulator time as anybody, flying the Shuttle Training Aircraft, flying T-38s and everything like that. I was thinking, “I don’t know what to do.” But finally I decided that they had enough good young men and women that could fly the Space Shuttle as good as I could or better. But I had a skill and an experience and I said, “In my opinion someone needs to do this job, to record this great human adventure in fine art so that it will remain.” It doesn’t replace the movies, it doesn’t replace the books other people write. But it’s a great enough event in human history, that recording it this way is something that only I am interested in doing, but it’s worth doing. It was a big decision because I’d worked my whole life to get where I was, and I was looking forward to flying the Shuttle and I liked doing that job and I knew how to—my whole life had been directed to doing that job. I had the best job in the world for someone like me, and I could do it well. Indeed they haven’t missed Alan Bean, but if I hadn’t done this job [painting] it wouldn’t exist. And I believe that 100, 200, 300 years from now all these paintings will be around, because they’re the first paintings of humans doing things off this Earth. When humans go to Mars they’re going to do the very same things, because this is what humans do. I think all these paintings will someday be in museums and be known just as paintings by early other explorers are in the same way. This is probably more valuable because it is the first time humans went to another world. So I’m glad I did it. So I began to think about that, doing that. They wanted me to stay and run this, do that, until John Young had flown [STS-1] so I did that. I said, “That’s what I’ll do. I’ll concentrate on being an astronaut, helping our new astronauts.” That was my way of thinking. I tried to minimize using NASA assets, because that’s me. In fact, the reason I finally told George Abbey—he called me in and he said, “You haven’t been flying the T-38s lately.” I said, “That’s true, George.” I wasn’t planning to tell him this. “I’m planning to leave here in several weeks, and I didn’t want to use the gas money.” Didn’t seem right to me. He said to me, “Where are you going?” It really shocked him, because he knew I liked being an astronaut. He was sitting in his chair, and he sat up. “What are you going to do? Where are you going to go?” I said, “I’m going to be an artist.” He went back like this and if he hadn’t had the window behind him, he would have gone over backwards. He banged into the window. His first comment, “Can you earn a living at that?” That was his first comment. I said, “I don’t know, but if I can’t I’m going to go to work at Jack in the Box [fast food restaurant] so I’ll have my energy. And then I’ll learn to do it.” He didn’t think it was a particularly good idea, because I’m sure he had me scheduled to do other things, but you have to live your dream even if other people think it’s screwed up. About half the astronauts thought it was a midlife crisis or something. The other half, the ones that were more right brain, thought it was a pretty good idea. Joe [Joseph P.] Kerwin, who’s a pretty right brain kind of guy, a doctor, he thought it was a good idea. Some others did. Others that knew me well knew that I wasn’t having a midlife crisis. I had a plan. They all love it now. When I had this exhibition in Washington [DC] on the 40th anniversary [of the Apollo 11 moon landing] on July 20th, they all came and they all looked and saw themselves. Consider also some of astronaut-artist Alan's comments in the movie The Wonder Of It All. In relation to returning from a successful lunar landing he said that it:...made me satisfied with my life for the rest of my life. Alan also said:We are charged with making our dreams come true... If you gotta a song in your heart you better sing it! One of his signature concluding phrases for presentations is:Light to thy path, wind to thy sails, dreams to thy heart. The writer and philosopher Thoreau shared the sentiment:If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. |
DeepSea Member Posts: 68 From: Registered: Jun 2014
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posted 07-06-2016 08:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by Fra Mauro: Why was Conrad told no about being Chief of the Astronaut Office?
He didn't want to be Chief Astronaut. He wanted to be Director of Flight Crew Operations. There's a quote out there that post-Skylab, he said words to the effect of 'I'd like Deke's job' to then be told by Kraft that 'there won't be another Deke'. The end of Deke was the end for the position of power that the job held. |
Fra Mauro Member Posts: 1587 From: Bethpage, N.Y. Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 07-06-2016 08:46 AM
An indication that management wanted more control over crew selections. Conrad might not have found the job satisfying, especially with the down time between ASTP and the shuttle. |
Michael Cassutt Member Posts: 358 From: Studio City CA USA Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 07-06-2016 10:23 AM
It wasn't just crew selection — MSC/JSC management always had veto power over Slayton's choices going back to 1962. Kraft was unhappy with Slayton's general unwillingness to cooperate with Life Sciences and Public Affairs, among other issues. |