posted 09-04-2007 01:26 PM               

Me 2 cents

posted 09-04-2007 01:35 PM               

Like Mark, I can understand and appreciate the contrary view, but it is not one that I can support as site owner and moderator. To be clear, it is not, as some have charged me with, a desire to protect those who create forgeries. In fact, it is quite the opposite: a desire to protect those who are innocent of any wrong doing from being unjustly attacked.

It is far too easy, given the anonymity afforded by the web, for someone to use such a black list or forum thread for their own purposes, casting aversions against someone they either do not like or who they perceive as competition. And even if their motives are altruistic, mistakes can and do occur, no matter how convincing the evidence seems to be. Thus, I've chosen to err on the side of caution and insist that the discussion be focused on the suspected forgery itself, not the person offering it.

Edited by Robert Pearlman on September 04, 2007 at 06:26 PM.

posted 09-04-2007 04:03 PM               

Background : any forum owner or moderator in Germany can be held liable for any comment of anyone without even knowing that such a comment has been posted.
It is ridicilous and a German supreme court decision is yet to be made, but running a forum is a very very dangerous thing.
Various state court decisions (some are quiet contrary) put these folks into a very unpleasant situation when they held forum owners liable for any badmouthing done in their forums.

So I can fully understand Robert's decision to be careful here and I suppose he's not happy either with that situation, but certainly none of us would want to risk the closing of collectspace.

Florian

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Flown artifacts, autographs and more !
www.spaceflori.com

Edited by spaceflori on September 04, 2007 at 04:04 PM.

posted 09-04-2007 04:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by spaceflori:
I can't speak for the US, but in Germany Robert would be an endangered species as a forum moderator.

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posted 09-04-2007 04:18 PM               

I can understand why Robert don't accept to publish names of forgers (sorry for forgeresr). I would like say when a person is reconize to have made or sell forgeries, I think collectors maybe would like know the name because they have maybe purchased before some items from his 'bad'' person and they have in their collections some forgeries believe genuine. Maybe I have some forgeries I never detect in my collection (especially since I have purchased fews items in Germany some years ago)

Sorry for confusion

posted 09-04-2007 05:28 PM               

I wouldn't necessarily suspect your items of being forgeries just because they are from German dealers, as there are reputable dealers out there from Germeny who wouldn't knowingly sell a bad item (such as Florian).

But if those items you purchased include some of the more desirable signatures (such as Armstrong), I don't think it would hurt to get a second opinion on them (regardless of where you purchased them)...especially if you feel there is any doubt whatsoever to their authenticity. If nothing else, getting a second opinion may give you greater peace of mind over the sigantures that turn out to be authentic. There is nothing that will ruin the enjoyment of one's own collection more than a nagging doubt over authenticity of certain items. And if an item is indeed a forgery, knowing that will help you track down the source of the forgery...and help you prevent buying more forgeries from that dealer.

My suggestion is to post photos of items you want a second opinion about...in a high enough resolution for the signature to be clearly seen. Since CS limits the size of the items posted, you could just provide links to pics stored outside of CS. You could easily sign up for an account with one of many online photo places, such as PictureTrail or Photobucket. I suspect several helpful people here would be happy to look over your collection and provide comments on items.

posted 09-04-2007 06:20 PM            

Particularly because forgery is a crime, but can rarely be proven, and is based on opinions no matter how well meaning or expert. Scott Cornish has earned my respect because he works at it, and keeps (apparently) exhaustive records that date back years with pictures!

The trouble I have is that the dealers who sell this suspect material are often named the forgers. (I'm not worried as a dealer, because I can't write.) It may be true sometimes, but I have to believe there are some layers of deceit of which dealers are the most visible.

Kim

Edited by Novaspace on September 04, 2007 at 06:21 PM.

posted 09-05-2007 04:33 PM               

The UACC has on it's website, a "Hall of Shame". While limited in scope to UACC (ex) members or those using the UACC name, it is a model for those who would like to publish a space centric site.

As chair of it's ethics board I have gone after many selling forgeries. You'd be surprised at how many do sell, and don't do it intentionally (or at least that's their stories and they stick to it). A group will take the items off eBay for example, when approached in an articulate manner.

Certainly if it's a mistake and they comply there would be no need to publish a name or eBay monniker. But to share those who KNOWINGLY offer for sale, items that are clear forgeries, can be a public service.

Hence why we at the UACC publish the Hall of Shame page.

There is a lot of talent here: Scott, Zarelli, Florian, Mint for example - who do a great job at outting folks.

posted 09-05-2007 09:57 PM               

The forum here makes it easy for anyone that follows threads here to make decisions about credible dealers and sellers. That is the key- a free and open forum to discuss.

This is not a law enforcement agency (although I sometimes wish it were). I find it troubling that the victims of forgers do nothing. They have to be the ones that report fraud to the authorities. However, the forgers often refund their money and nothing ever happens...

cS is the only way I have found to meet people that know just about every facet of space collecting that exists. There are people here that discuss things that I have never heard of- that is a great thing.

posted 09-06-2007 12:46 AM               

You're right to point out that you can't blame legitimate dealers who unknowningly sell forged autographs. To Florian's credit, he's refunded peoples money on pieces with his COA, that are found to be forgeries many years down the road. He's a great example of a stand up guy, who's willing to make good on mistakes he's made, dealing with expertly forged material.

It's the "dealers" who consistently sell forged or questionable material who need to be outed. Kim nailed it on the head when mentioning Scott Cornish doing years of research. He's the guy I go to, because he's put in the time to make sure every piece is evaluated correctly. The money I spend for a Scott Cornish COA is worth 10 times down the road.

I think about what's going to happen with my collection when I drop dead. In Febuary I came within 2-4 days of dying from a 99% blocked right coronary artery and had to have emergency heart surgery. My wife doesn't know anything about my collection, but with a Cornish COA, all she has to do is hand my stuff to the auction house I've designated and I know the piece will sell for market price. This way I don't have to worry that she'll be selling my stuff for pennies on the dollar.

Ebay's new policy has done a beautiful job in hurting the average collector. They've gone out of their way to give the forger a wonderful avenue to peddle their garbage without fear of being caught. Look at the seller who just sold 3 of the rarest covers in the space field and they're all forgeries. They sold for pretty good money, but nothing close to what they'd bring if they were authentic items. Still this guy made $4000 for 3 pieces of junk ????? Who's the fool, the seller or the person who bought it without getting an expert opinion.

I stay away from autographs unless I've run them by Scott Cornish first, he's saved me many thousands of dollars on items I would have purchased, but for him telling me not to touch it.

The proliferation of very well done forgeries, will only hurt the hobby and it's important to put the spotlight on the dealers who consistently sell forged material. If they're not responsible for forging the material, then they're in collusion with the people who are and they're sharing in the profits from collectors ignorance.

For good or bad, it's the responsibility of Scott, Kim, Tahir, Ken, Bob and Robert to let the great unwashed know what is a legitimate piece and what's not. Not because they have the expert knowledge, but to help eliminate the forgers profit motive. Once the forgers know they're busted, they'll move on to other genre's because they won't waste their time trying to rip off unsuspecting collectors.

BTW, Robert does not have any legal exposure because it's peoples opinions that are being posted. Having members state their expert opinions about forged items, is not illegal, nor is naming the party responsible for selling the forged item.

Besides, the people in question are in Germany and they have no legal standing to bring a suit against Robert in the US. On top of that, they'd have to prove in court that they suffered damages by lies being told on cS. They're not selling legitimate items, which has been proven on multiple items, so where are their damages ? They have no damages because they're selling forged material and there's no judge or jury who'd agree with them.

Slander or libel can only result in damages if malice can be proven, which it cannot because there isn't any malice, especially in Robert's case. If anything, Robert goes so far overboard to not piss off anyone, that he seems to be protecting the guilty. I don't always agree with Robert, but this is his site, he's the boss, he makes the rules and it's his money that's keeping this site up.

98% of the collectors don't have the years of expertise and indepth knowledge like Scott, Tahir, Ken H, Bob M, Robert Pearlman, Kim, Jimmy Brown and other hardcore collectors. We don't have the time to devote in order to be an expert in the field of autographs, so I'm thrilled to have someone like Scott to rely on.

Let's face it, at these prices, it's no longer a hobby, it's an investment. Building airplane models with my son is a hobby, but if you're spending thousands of dollars for a rare autograph, you'd better have someone, like the above mentioned guys, put they're seal of approval on a piece before you buy.

BTW, Kudos to Superior for acting on the items pointed out by Scott & Ken. Too bad other auction houses aren't as dilligent and take the attitude of "Caveat Emptor" when dealing with their clients.

Sorry for the long post.

posted 09-06-2007 09:58 AM               

Your comments are well summarized. We will try to bring out forgeries as best as we can. However, no one is always 100% correct on these matters.
I think anyone that follows the various threads here knows who to ask for help and who to avoid when purchasing items.
By the way, Gerry Montague is also quite knowledgeable and he has real items on his site as well. I have never seen forgeries there.
Forgers are not tolerated by me, I despise them. We will try to confront them where possible. I have seen Scott and Kim confront sellers of forgeries- they should be commended. We have to work together to protect this hobby- one that many see as too risky.